Chemtrail Debunkers....

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
reply to post by Tecumte

 

And this textbook still doesn't say it's happening ...

Well hey, what a relief, I guess you settled that once and for all, if someone doesn't TELL you personally it''s happening then it's back to sleep now, nighty night.......

reply to post by Tecumte


so you think that the textbook is credible evidence that it IS happening - even though it says nothing of the sort?

I'm a bit saddened that you too are now going down the path of taking comments out of context and ridiculing the poster by reducto ad absurdium - for a while I thought yuo were genuinely intersted in evaluating the evidence.

reply to post by MathiasAndrew


Absolutely. Certain individuals argument tactics do constitue proof no matter how hard they howl it does not.

Here is more proof. Current off the shelf 747 are capable of flying into the stratosphere for geoengineering injecting reflective aerosol particles into the stratosphere to scatter sunlight. Canadian paper

A comparison of regional and transit operations utilizing Boeing 747s (at its service ceiling of 45,000 feet)...

They can even disperse particulate aerosols such as So2 without external nozzles. They can inject it into the engines and gain a performance boost to boot. The only thing visible are contrails which contain the particulate aerosols conforming to anecdotal observations. candian study

In the case of the present system, a significant quantity of sulfuric acid will be stored on the aircraft and ejected into the atmosphere during flight. This liquid could be injected into the engine to provide additional thrust at high altitudes to combat thrust lapse. As discussed in the previous section elevated sulfur content is detrimental to engine com- ponent life, and consequently traditional liquid injection techniques (compressor inlet injection) would not be appropriate for this system. However, some thrust augmentation may be realizable by injecting the sulfuric acid downstream of the turbine, in a manner similar to a modern afterburner. By this approach, to achieve thrust increases the tur- bine exhaust gases must be hot enough to vaporize the sulfuric acid.

Recent work by Pierce et al has shown that directly emitting H2SO4 allows better control of particle size6 and therefore more effective reflection of incoming flux. For the purposes of this study, we have assumed the geoengineering payload is a liquid ... emitted as a vapor. ...The peak scattering effectiveness of H2SO4 aerosols is about 0.2 microns.

Originally posted by Tecumte

Ummmmm, I'm in mid- Missouri

And yes, what I see (overhead here in Mid-Missouri) looks (to me) like military exercises of some type where dozens of planes often descend upon cloudless blues skies flying x's and o's and beside each other and right at each often whiting out the sky in a matter of hours all the while occasional scattered east- west air traffic (that is usual most any time of the year) flies through this white out soup left by these other 'acrobats' leaving only the expected quickly dispating vapor trails. It may sound 'silly' to you but it's the best description I can give for what I honestly see. Take it whatever way you like.

edit on 28-3-2011 by Tecumte because: clarification

Take this all the way back to basics. Weedwhacker as a professional aviator will be the most qualified person to explain it, but I'll have a go.

Go onto the following website.

skyvector.com...

Type in KMCI or KSTL in the 'Flight Plan box' and click 'go'

There is a map/chart zoom function in the bottom right of the screen.

KMCI = Kansas City International

KSTL = St Louis International Airport

Then click on 'Enroute H-5' in the upper right of the screen.

You will see the jet routes covering Missouri.

Jet Routes marked J cover 18,000 feet to 45,000 feet

On some aviation charts there will also be Q-Routes along with J-Routes. These also cover 18,000 feet to 45,000 feet.

Q-Routes 18,000 feet to 45,000 feet

Flight Aware covering KMCI and KSTL

flightaware.com...

flightaware.com...

It is quite clear that you live in a region that has active and busy J-Routes. You are the one making the claims that you don't live near any large airport, but are failing to comprehend that these high altitude air routes exist. Scroll out from Missouri on the Skyvector and see how extensive they are? They have existed for years and new ones can be created. Your claim is that you have been observing the sky for years. Were you even aware that the J-Routes existed or how they functioned to keep US air traffic flowing? Think of all the air movements in the US during one day?

There is a forum on Skyvector. People track and monitor these flights as a hobby via, for example Plane Plotter or RadarVirtuel.

TJ

reply to post by pianopraze

Let's look at the numbers used in that proposal.

Analysis7 has shown that a release rate of 0.1 to 0.003 kilograms per meter travelled by the aircraft limits
coagulation. For the purposes of this study, concepts of operations are designed
around a release rate of 0.03kg/m.

people.ucalgary.ca...

.03 kg per meter of horizontal travel. Let's say the "chemtrail" is about the wingspan of the plane producing it by the time people notice it, about 30 meters. So that .03 kg covers 30 square meters. That's 1 gram per square meter (3 grams if they go heavy on it). Of course, a "chemtrail" is not 2 dimensional. Let's call it 15 meters deep, so now we have 0.067 grams per cubic meter. Not likely to be visible. Mathias has claimed that these additional aerosols will cause a "chemtrail" to spread and persist by acting as condensation nuclei. We've heard about how "chemtrails" turn into a solid deck. Do the particles somehow increase in number? How do those few grams per kilometer cause that? Is there any science behind it?

Then there's the size of the particles again, 0.2 microns. Particles of that size do not scatter light of all wavelengths evenly. They do not create a white cloud. The geoengineers don't like white clouds at high altitudes, studies show that they lead to radiative forcing. They cause warming, not cooling.

reply to post by pianopraze


Again with the Canadian feasibility and cost study??

Why is it that you don't understand that a study of how it COULD be done, and how much it MIGHT might, does not show that it is happening now, or for the last 13-15 years??

Originally posted by pianopraze

Here is more proof. Current off the shelf 747 are capable of flying into the stratosphere for geoengineering injecting reflective aerosol particles into the stratosphere to scatter sunlight.

Yes, more proof that 'chemtrails' are very obviously not caused by geoengineering

Duplicate post

Originally posted by Phage

.03 kg per meter of horizontal travel. Let's say the "chemtrail" is about the wingspan of the plane producing it by the time people notice it, about 30 meters. So that .03 kg covers 30 square meters. That's 1 gram per square meter (3 grams if they go heavy on it). Of course, a "chemtrail" is not 2 dimensional. Let's call it 15 meters deep, so now we have 0.067 grams per cubic meter. Not likely to be visible. Mathias has claimed that these additional aerosols will cause a "chemtrail" to spread and persist by acting as condensation nuclei. We've heard about how "chemtrails" turn into a solid deck. Do the particles somehow increase in number? How do those few grams per kilometer cause that? Is there any science behind it?

Then there's the size of the particles again, 0.2 microns. Particles of that size do not scatter light of all wavelengths evenly. They do not create a white cloud. The geoengineers don't like white clouds at high altitudes, studies show that they lead to radiative forcing. They cause warming, not cooling.

Fascinating. So what color would they be? What colors would be more prevalent if they are not scattered evenly?Or would they be invisible? Or would they form a hazy day where the light forms a weird cast?

If they were invisible then how would they reflect light back? That doesn't make since so geoengineering injection of aerosol particulates would most likely be visible...

I thought they wanted white clouds in the marine environment for geoengineering... but they tried that and failed according to one of your fellow debunkers in another thread. I just learned they have already admitted to trying several geoengineering techniques. If they have tried several other geoengineering techniques... why wouldn't they try more techniques, especially spraying aerosol particulates into the stratosphere which seems to be the one they discuss the most?

Why would they try theories that are less talked about and not the one they talk most about? Especially since they suggest it is the cheapest way. So if they tried it where are the papers? Why are they hidden? Logic suggests they tried. They published their failures apparently... so if aerosol injection failed why are these papers hidden?

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
reply to post by Tecumte

 

Are you just Matty on another ID? this is the sort of stuff he does - punts up paper afetr paper that say that aersolos would be an answer to global warming and claiming that constitutes evidene that it is happening.

You're starting to sound a bit paraniod. Now you think I'm talking to myself in threads?

This a new low for you. You sound crazier than the craziest "chemmies".

Do you see the rainbows in your garden hose yet?

reply to post by Tecumte

Funny when my children brought home their 7th grade science book and asked me about the picture of the commecial jetliner with the logo "Particle Air" written on the side spewing out carbon laced plumes to intentionally cloud the sky. The things they teach kids nowdays.....

That articles says a lot to me. It's funny how they openly talk about spraying with school kids.

But they avoid the topic and call it a hoax with adults who are old enough to see the change.

Thanks for sharing it.

reply to post by Tecumte

Here's something else to consider Mathias, perhaps as food for further thought and research:

Interesting paper thanks for the link. I've looked into these plasma theories and they appear to have some serious credibility. IMO There is a large military interest in developing this plasma technology and not just for our television viewing pleasure.

Some theories I have heard involve supersonic aircraft flying at extremely high altitudes. There are a few suggested theories..

1 ) The aircraft uses the plasma atmosphere to assist in propulsion.. It pulses a laser that ignites the air in front of it which removes resistance allowing for greater speeds to be achieved.

2 ) The HAARP system heats the ionosphere in 2 separate specific locations, which creates a plasma tube/vortex that a supersonic jet can fly through at record breaking hypersonic speeds.

3 ) The plasma atmosphere creates an invisible conduit that in conjuction with HAARP allows for the transfer of wireless energy. Becoming a giant modified Tesla coil in a sense.

4 ) NASA research shows attempts to develop plasma jet boosters for their deep space satellites.

I found this quote to be a good anecdotal summary.

www.missouriskywatch.com...

The water, air, and soil of all of these countries is so saturated with metal cations that these weapons freaks should be able to zap and mind f--k each other quite well now and as often as they wish. Once they have clobbered each other with light-saber beams for a few years and razed and scorched sections of the earth, they may start to realize that this foreign policy will lead to a defective human race and a rotten economy. Do you think they will have knocked some sense into each other by then and will decide that non-proliferation and arms reduction is the more civilized and mature direction to take in world affairs? I doubt it, cause only idiots would have developed horrific, planet-killer weapons like these. But, I'll bet the rest of the planet will finally rise up and tell these juvenile delinquents to quit playing with those rayguns right this second.

After further thought on Bearden www.bariumblues.com... a big over-unity and free energy proponent of Tesla technology that makes energy off of boiling the ionosphere or stealing electricity from the mis-named "vacumn" called Life, I have decided that Bearden is telling us some, if not most, of the truth. Same for Eastlund.

Please pass "The Short Scoop" around to your newsgroups, newspapers, magazines, websites or where ever you want to put it. Take some pictures and put with it, too.

Known usage of HAARP-technology weapon systems
High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program

Weather modification and control
Earthquake production
Surveillance, including underground surveillance
Deep water communications
Biological alterations
Mind control
High altitude defense shield

xiandos.info...

oh noes they are spraying us (including themselves ) with poison!....run to the HILLS..oh wait that would only bring us closer to the contrails..er chemtrails sorry I get the two mixed up.

reply to post by pianopraze

They can even disperse particulate aerosols such as So2 without external nozzles. They can inject it into the engines and gain a performance boost to boot. The only thing visible are contrails which contain the particulate aerosols conforming to anecdotal observations

Thanks again for this report. It is definitely proof of how far advanced they are with their so called "studies".

Not much study left for them to do now, is there. Hmmm I wonder what their next step might be?

Couldn't possibly be actually using it though ......right?

Originally posted by Nobama
oh noes they are spraying us (including themselves

) with poison!....run to the HILLS..oh wait that would only bring us closer to the contrails..er chemtrails sorry I get the two mixed up.

edit on 31-3-2011 by Nobama because: (no reason given)

The intention may not be to poison us but it does seem to have that effect on life in the long term.

The perceived threat of global warming or whatever it is they are trying to control, seems to be worth the trade off in health risk to them.

Don't forget they have insider knowledge of where it happens, when it happens and how to protect themselves if necessary.

reply to post by MathiasAndrew


I just find this hard to believe, there's not enough actual facts about this to be considered real, so I chalk this right up next to the whole planet x and my neighbors an alien. I do enjoy being open minded about such stuff though so maybe for a good read, could you perhaps point me to a starting point? i'm sure there's plenty of info already in this thread, but I would like to start fresh and work my way into this subject, who knows maybe i'll find something to change my mind, and i'll have you to thank.


I also feel it's a little wrong for me to debate you when I haven't done full research of my own

reply to post by Nobama


If you enjoy video documentaries I personally believe these three are the best ones out.
What in the World are they spraying
www.youtube.com...

Rosalind Peterson: The Chemtrail Cover-Up
www.youtube.com...

Aerosol crimes - Clifford Carnicom
www.youtube.com...

Geoengineering Scientists
Scott Barrett, Columbia University
Ken Caldeira, Carnegie Institution of Washington
James Fleming, Colby College
Michael MacCracken, Climate Institute
Philip Rasch, Pacific Northwest National Laboratory, Department of
Energy
Alan Robock, Rutgers University
John Shepherd, University of Southampton, United Kingdom (did not
participate)
David Keith, University of Calgary, Canada
M. Granger Morgan, Carnegie Mellon University
Margaret Leinen, Climate Response Fund

environmentalresearchweb.org...

Keith supported small-scale experiments that deploy particles of H2SO4 (sulphuric acid) in the stratosphere from the back of aeroplanes to create a thin sun barrier, like giant tinted windows. He called it a "cheap, fast and imperfect" contingency plan that should be tested as soon as possible.

Alan Robock
www.youtube.com...

John Holdren
www.youtube.com...

David Keith
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...

Ken Caldeira
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...

Discussion Panels
Geoengineering: Global Salvation or Ruin?
fora.tv...
Dare We Try to Engineer Earth's Climate?
fora.tv...

Council on Foreign Relations
Developing an International Framework for Geoengineering
www.cfr.org...

For reading sources

Geoengineering Cost Analysis
people.ucalgary.ca...

CLIMATE CHANGE
A Coordinated Strategy Could Focus Federal Geoengineering Research
and Inform Governance Efforts
www.gao.gov...

BELFORT GROUP - CASE ORANGE REPORT
saive.com...

6.1. CONCLUSIONS AND RECOMMENDATIONS:

When combining the knowledge of the formation of contrails, the effects of Cirrus clouds on climate, the historical
records of weather manipulation programs, the scientific studies on geo-engineering through modification of Cirrus
clouds, the available and patented technology coupled with reactions of pilots on the internet one can only come to the
following conclusions:

1. Manipulation of climate through modification of Cirrus clouds is neither a hoax nor a conspiracy theory,
but currently the best option in geo-engineering considered by decision makers to counter global warming. The impact
of production of artificial Cirrus clouds on temperature and precipitation patterns is supported by adequate hard
scientific evidence.

2. The ambition of the United States is to control the weather by the year 2025, both for civil and military purposes
(offensive and defensive strategies). This research paper contains a proven track record to support that statement.

3. The technology to organize spraying actions on a global scale is widely available. Both civil and military aviation is
used for that purpose. The mix, containing oxides of metals and chemical components, can either be dispersed through
special designed pods or directly incorporated into the jet fuel. This research paper is well documented in this respect.

4. Since the patents are owned by the main defense contractor for the U.S. armed forces (Raytheon) or the U.S.
department of defense itself and given the history record it is obvious that current climate manipulation programs are
organized and directed by the United States government.

5. The spraying actions in Europe are only possible with prior approval and intense co-ordination on top government
level and industry on executive level. The general public is intentionally kept unaware of the existence of such projects.

6. Although the spraying actions may be considered legal these actions may have a potential detrimental effect on
health. There is sufficient scientific evidence available in this research paper to support this thesis.

IPCC Publications
www.ipcc.ch...
www.ipcc.ch...
www.ipcc.ch...

A very inconvenient truth.
www.tos.org...

US Global Change Information Research Office
www.gcrio.org...
www.gcrio.org...

Reaction of BARIUM CHLORIDE & SODIUM SULFATE solutions

When a solution of Barium chloride is poored into a solution of sodium sulfate a white precipitate of Barium sulfate is formed.

Barium chloride (cloudy solution) reacting with copper sulphate (clear blue solution)

Originally posted by MathiasAndrew


Don't forget they have insider knowledge of where it happens, when it happens and how to protect themselves if necessary.

When what happens? Why would anyone need protecting? I thought we were talking about stratospheric spraying now? You spray something over London and within a week it's covering the whole N Hemisphere. Spray it over the equator and it covers both hemispheres (so naturally most spraying would occur around the tropics).

As we see with big volcanic eruptions - remember the stratospheric dust that was visible throughout the N Hemisphere in summer 2009 after Sarychev erupted?

Hence Pinatubo - being nearer the equator - had such a global effect on temperature.

Originally posted by MathiasAndrew

Originally posted by Nobama
oh noes they are spraying us (including themselves

) with poison!....run to the HILLS..oh wait that would only bring us closer to the contrails..er chemtrails sorry I get the two mixed up.

edit on 31-3-2011 by Nobama because: (no reason given)

The intention may not be to poison us but it does seem to have that effect on life in the long term.

The perceived threat of global warming or whatever it is they are trying to control, seems to be worth the trade off in health risk to them.

Don't forget they have insider knowledge of where it happens, when it happens and how to protect themselves if necessary.

edit on 31-3-2011 by MathiasAndrew because: edit text

Mathias, I think it's self evident and I imagine you would agree, when we look at all of the nuclear weapons testing that was done for decades and how we are still finding the aftermath of it, that the total and blatant disregard for environmental and health effects on the public of any of these programs is quite 'normal'.

One doesn't even have to look further into the decades of well known open air chemical and biological tests as well as those on the ground that were performed on an unknowing public with absolutely no regard for the public health to see there really is a 'who cares' mentality to realeasing all sorts of poisons and toxins into our environment.