Books that will land you on a watch list

Originally posted by Solasis
Wait. Your loic is "People bought them immediately when we shelved them, so they must have been critical watchlist reading, when the much more logical explanation is "these books caused controversy and dispute. Individuals wanted to know their content."

Gosh, I'm convinced. I'll never read CAtcher in the Rye again.

Umm. No. Thats not my logic. Sounds more like yours to me.

Notice I did not say "Catcher in the Rye," someone else did.

I said we NEVER shelved them, but rather just set them up on the counter because there was no point in shelving them.

And I said the CUSTOMERS acted as if those books actually were on a watch list, by snapping them up from us, rather than just ordering them via regular channels. The customers behaved as if they strongly preferred to acquire those books through channels which made anyone knowing they had them highly unlikely.

And if they were just curious about the content, they would just sit down and browse the book, not pay a fair amount of money for it. Not all used books are cheap, especially high demand books we know will sell quickly.

Im guessing with your reading comprehension skills you dont read much anyway, so I dont feel one bit bad if you get put off reading "Catcher in the Rye."

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander

Originally posted by Solasis
Wait. Your loic is "People bought them immediately when we shelved them, so they must have been critical watchlist reading, when the much more logical explanation is "these books caused controversy and dispute. Individuals wanted to know their content."

Gosh, I'm convinced. I'll never read CAtcher in the Rye again.

Umm. No. Thats not my logic. Sounds more like yours to me.

Notice I did not say "Catcher in the Rye," someone else did.

I said we NEVER shelved them, but rather just set them up on the counter because there was no point in shelving them.

And I said the CUSTOMERS acted as if those books actually were on a watch list, by snapping them up from us, rather than just ordering them via regular channels. The customers behaved as if they strongly preferred to acquire those books through channels which made anyone knowing they had them highly unlikely.

And if they were just curious about the content, they would just sit down and browse the book, not pay a fair amount of money for it. Not all used books are cheap, especially high demand books we know will sell quickly.

Im guessing with your reading comprehension skills you dont read much anyway, so I dont feel one bit bad if you get put off reading "Catcher in the Rye."

Your logic is much clearer now. It was kind of stuttered and random in there before. I have to say, that you're still using this behavior as key evidence that they would be on a watch-list. You also never said that the books were priced highly, so there was no reason to assume that they would be.

As to "why didn't they order them" -- have you ever tried to order the Anarchist's Cookbook? The genuine, original version is pretty much impossible to find now. Or at least was a few years ago; I honestly haven't checked lately.

Here's an idea -- maybe they snatched them up so quickly because these books are famous for their controversy, including allegedly being able to put you on a watch-list, so they saw the books and said "My god, I must have a copy!"

I know you didn't say "Catcher in the Rye". Catcher in the Rye is kind of the iconic "banned watch this guy" book. I'm shocked you don't know that if you worked in a bookstore. But, hey, I guess not everyone can work with metonymy.

(And this is nitpicking, but so was yours -- I said "when you shelved them" as a commonly used form of communication, representing a hypothetical event in the past as if it had actually happened, explaining why it does not happen. You did not shelve them because there was no point, presumably because it had been tried in the past and was proved to be an exercise in futility.)

"The Mathematical Connection between Religion & Science," by Stephen Phillips.

Paradigm-shifting, rigorous, mathematical proof of the existence of transcendental intelligence that some call "God."

Originally posted by Solasis

As to "why didn't they order them" -- have you ever tried to order the Anarchist's Cookbook? The genuine, original version is pretty much impossible to find now. Or at least was a few years ago; I honestly haven't checked lately.

It isnt now, and it wasnt a few years ago.

www.abebooks.com...

Originally posted by Solasis
I know you didn't say "Catcher in the Rye". Catcher in the Rye is kind of the iconic "banned watch this guy" book. I'm shocked you don't know that if you worked in a bookstore. But, hey, I guess not everyone can work with metonymy.

Actually, "Catcher in the Rye" is on so many schools required reading lists that we made a practice of buying in virtually every copy that was in acceptable physical shape. And there are TONS in circulation because of the fact that that book is one many schools required reading lists.

It has a reputation of being a regularly "banned" book. But books that get groups of citizens up in arms and make them try to ban them, are not the same thing as books which will get the CIA or FBI interested in you. Notice a theme in most of the books people are suggesting will get you on a watch list. Titles that are "how to" books for things that could be used in guerrilla warfare seem to be a common theme.

Originally posted by Solasis
(And this is nitpicking, but so was yours -- I said "when you shelved them" as a commonly used form of

I really dont care why you said it. You claimed I said it, and I didnt. If you are going to be a smart ass, and make fun of other peoples reasoning, do a better job. Or, better yet, make a contribution to the thread, either by suggesting a title you suspect might land you on a watchlist, or by giving a good argument that the government doesnt actually have books whose sale or download it tracks.

Either would be much appreciated, and helpful to your fellow ATSer.

Originally posted by AnimositisominA
Bill Cooper. Behold A Pale Horse

Why, exactly? I bought this and read it. I was quite underwhelmed and pretty disappointed. It was amateurish at best.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
Some examples of these books were "The Anarchists Cookbook,"

Is it true that most, if not all, copies of this in print have been altered by any number of the Alphabet Agencies in order to make the various items in the book inert, ineffective, or dangerous to the builder and/or user? I've heard that rumor many times, and didn't know if it was fantasy or reality.

I don't know if any print books will land you a list anymore but I do know that most libraries no longer keep your history and that can't be for no reason.

I also know, and it's a big topic of interest in the library world right now, that companies who distribute ebooks can and have go into your readers remotely and remove your ebooks or even worse can edit them without your knowledge.

Stay away from ebook sources with account information and syncing.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Originally posted by TerryMcGuire
reply to post by Caji316

 

HO BOY!!!!

"The Autobiography of Malcom X".1965. You can count on it. You're on a list.

"The Hidden Persuaders" by Vance Packard. 1957. You've been on some list for a long time.

"The Creature From Jekyll Island" by Edward Griffin. 1994.Oops. Now you have snagged a supervisor's attention.

" P.R. A Social History of Spin" by Stuart Ewen.2004. Now they are starting to make phone calls.

"The Jungle" by Upton Sinclar. 1906. There's no doubt now. They know you're on to them.

"Shock Doctrine. The Rise of Disaster Capitalism" by Naomi Klien. 2007. Run, they're coming up to your door.

"Human Race Get Off Your Knees" by David Icke. Now. Up to your door,,,,with a net.

Ha ha!
half this stuff is required reading at your average college/university.
how about 'The Koran'?

reply to post by larphillips


Honestly, I dont know. I have heard that the original was also wildly inaccurate, and the whole thing was sort of a scam on the would be Anarchists.

My guess would be, however, that if it really had been altered in different printings we would know that for sure. You can buy a first edition right now, and compare it to a later printing if you so desired, and my guess would be that since that rumor has been so long standing someone surely has by now done just that.

But I do know exactly what you mean, I have heard that rumor many times.

I did find a video that makes "Uncle Fester" of the Uncle Fester sries of books look as if he might actually know what he is doing. He really is a chemist, and apparently one who just got pissed off at the government because they stopped his little personal drug making scheme and wrote his books to spite them.

In the interview he said that while he was sitting in jail he just thought, "see how you like it if 30,000 more people are doing what I was doing," and started writing his books.

Its hard to tell. Even if the Anarchists Cookbook WERE a dummy, it still might land you on a watchlist. Say it was a plant, and totally unreliable, the alphabet agencies might still think that people who sought out that kind of information were worth watching.

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


Wow. Thanks for that.

I think I am going to pass on the ereader thing myself. I like holding books in my hot little hand much better than I like a hunk of plastic. Although I suppose you could get one and download all sorts of innocuous rubbish just as camouflage.

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


Another crappy move by ebook publishers here.www.abovetopsecret.com...

Another poster started this thread and it came and went rather quickly which is sad in my opinion. However I feel that it can be tied into this one somehow so enjoy. I'm really starting to think that somethings rotten in Denmark

That is all

reply to post by TrowaBarton


That Harper-Collins thing is just the beginning.

This "cloud" nonsense fueled by "piracy" and "security" will within the next 10 years result in no intellectual property being purchased anymore.

Everything will be subscription like cable television. You need Office? For $5.95 a month you can subscribe to it. Just have to get your hands on the next Call of Duty? $10/month you can subscribe to it.

No more discs for software or music or movies. Just subscriptions that permit regulated and limited access.

This is the future. Not even the very distant future either.

Folks think oppressive DRM in their games is bad just wait and see how oppressive it's going to get for every form of media.

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


Im kind of hoping if it gets to that, we will see an alternate info verse come forth.

I sure hope so. The image you paint is grim and very, very possible. Even probable.

That's why I've always been a major proponent of actually owning the physical item. Books helped to free humanity from oppression. As long as I am able, I will always have a personal library on hand of actual things... books, CDs, movies, etc.

As far as the "cloud" and subscription nonsense goes, and I fully agree that this is what they are moving towards, I have great faith in the world of hackers who will continue to figure out how to capture this material and make it available outside of the "ether."

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


We will.

Most people will jump into this head-first for the convenience factor of being able to keep smaller, sleeker machines at home which basically serve as access terminals and of not having to worry about backing anything up or scratching discs. People are always willing to join the mass control grid. They love it.

What you and I will see and be a part of is a sort of BBS revival and virtual LAN network. Assuming there arent any major infrastructure changes. We'll still have the phone lines for a while. Until cell phones replace land-lines completely anyway.

Posting on a BBS and playing Quake 2 on your basement LAN will be revolutionary acts.

This system that's coming about collects all of our data into one place, restricts our access (although it will appear to be granting us more access) and will most likely come with some sort of Internet access license each user will be required to have. Maybe even with usage rations attached.

It looks like the natural and unavoidable progression unless something radical happens.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
reply to post by hawkiye

 

Hey, you, add titles if you have them.

Some other sites suggested that books about your rights were among the alleged books on the danger list. Anyone confirm or deny that one?

Any books by Paladin Press, Rogner Benson, Boston T. Party, anything Survival, Any US military manuals, Gun and Rifle manuals, Even Ron Paul books will get you on a watch list, just to name a few

PS if you want to buy lots good controversial books privately, gun shows are a good place to do that.

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


I supported Diaspora because it sounded like they were aiming for something like what you describe, only for them, in the realm of social networking.

You know what we need? We need some of you who understand networking to write your version of "the anarchists cookbook." A how to guide to operating an internet outside of the main one.

I don't know about books that will get you on a watch list, but if you're already on a watch list, they're very interested in any book you buy.

I worked in a computer book store, and CSIS, the canadian intelligence agency came in to question me about a some russian guy who came in. They wanted a list of all the books he bought and anything I could tell them about the guy. I didn't speak with them for very long before the manager took over.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


Okay, I'm going to ignore most of this because it is stupid and tiring (on both our parts), and both of us are just going to end up repeating our arguments if I try. Ultimately, we're both kind of right about most of that. You missed the point and content of pretty much everything I said in my second post, and I spoke very unclearly in my first post, and I can kind of be a real, uh, "cleansing product" when arguing like this. (But damnit, 5 or 6 years ago when I got interested in the Cookbook, it was hard to find copies of the actual one. There was a knockoff with a lot less interesting things that I found once. It didn't even have instructions on phreaking. It was the best I could find with anything resembling ease.)

But I HAVE contributed to this thread. I pointed out that your reasons for suspecting that there was such a list were flawed. Which is a key part of the argument/discussion over whether there IS such a list. So yeah.

But as you seem to think that's insufficeint and that I'm just a drain on your thread, let's go a little bit deeper.

The government does like to "keep an eye on" its citizens. They ain't Big Brother, but they wouldn't mind if they were. They've got some watchlists, for sure, and I wouldn't be surprised if they had one like this.

On the other hand, do they have the resources to actually watch that watchlist? They have a lot to do, and they don't get all of it done. Perhaps when homegrown terrorism was the sort that they were the most afraid of they made that effort, but the obsessive (possibly fabricated, let's be fair to that segment of our population) fear of external terrorism has overtaken that, at least publicly. Are there enough Feds to watch everyone who raises a single flag, worldwide? (If they want more, I'd love to be an office fed. Listening to drab conversations all day long and getting paid for it? SWEET GIG.)

So, what I mean is -- it's quite possible, even likely that there is such a list. But should it exist, I doubt that being on it has any meaning right now. Speculation about what could be on the list is a good, interesting topic.

But that doesn't change the fact that your anecdote was deeply flawed and nonsensical as a reason to suspect there is such a list.

i agree with hawkiye, almost anything from paladin press will open eyes.

i also buy most of my books at gun shows, i still buy some in sores but also, i'm not worried about being put on the list.. again.

i know periodically the anarchists cookbook gets "updated", don't know by whom, but i just dl'd a copy that said it was revised in '02. not sure about the changes as it's been many, many years since i had the original.

i know there is a fairly decent link between "catcher in the rye" and supposed political assassins. no one seems to really know why, but it's there.

i'd say there is about a 70% chance that buying the classics of civil unrest, upheaving gov etc will get some ones attention.

catcher in the rye, 1984,animal farm, etc. i'd also say that buying certain "nutball" philosophers, camus, nietzhe, satre, etc.

but that's just my opinion.