I have a question for christians (not offensive)

reply to post by NOTurTypical


The theory on purgatory is derived from the apocryphal books such as the book of Tobit. These books have never been recognized as Canon books of scripture. How books were recognized as Canon is complicated but was not an attempt to "control" peoples beliefs. Some books just did not have historical affirmation, were not quoted by early church father's, contained questionable doctrines, were not considered apostolic etc etc. Purgatory is not to be found anywhere in the bible. Scripture is clear that Jesus atoned for all sin once and for all. Read Romans and Hebrews on this. The belf that you can atone for your sins and then get into heaven is not a Christian doctrine. It's all not to be found in Judaism either.

Originally posted by Elsha
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

The theory on purgatory is derived from the apocryphal books such as the book of Tobit. These books have never been recognized as Canon books of scripture. How books were recognized as Canon is complicated but was not an attempt to "control" peoples beliefs. Some books just did not have historical affirmation, were not quoted by early church father's, contained questionable doctrines, were not considered apostolic etc etc. Purgatory is not to be found anywhere in the bible. Scripture is clear that Jesus atoned for all sin once and for all. Read Romans and Hebrews on this. The belf that you can atone for your sins and then get into heaven is not a Christian doctrine. It's all not to be found in Judaism either.

I'm fully aware it's nowhere in the Bible. And Romans is the definitive statement of Christian doctrine for sure, but also Galatians and 1 Corinthians chapter 15 are monumental in hammering home that the justified will live by faith.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Yes, that is all it takes. The belief in atonement was a contribution of Paul, not Jesus. Jesus taught to believe in God as your Father and man as your brother. The idea that you are born with a sin on your head is a very ancient belief. That you must pay a debt to God because of this national or racial guilt goes back as far as recorded history. Jesus tried to free man from this. To loose the burdon of ritual and sacrifice, and the common people heard him gladly. What did that do though? It took away the need for the endless rituals and sacrifice which in turn took money and power out of the hands of the priests and religious leaders. That is why they had him killed.

Lucifer, Satan and the fallen angels were guilty of going against God's plan. Kind of like a business that is part of a large corporation breaking away and running on their own, without permission. The corporate bosses would not allow that, neither did God.

reply to post by UB2120

The belief in atonement was a contribution of Paul, not Jesus.

Jesus spoke of His shed blood. And furthermore Peter affirms all of Paul's teachings in all his epistles in 2 Peter.

Christ was simply the fulfillment of Passover and the blood atonement that had been practiced since the Exodus.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


He said that because he knew they were going to kill him. He did not teach of sacrifice or atonement. What sense does sacrifice or atonement make? Would you require the death of an innocient person to pay for the sin of another? If you wouldn't, how much more great is God than you? What kind of God do you believe in that would ever require blood sacrifice? Jesus taugh of a loving, caring Father of all.

Originally posted by UB2120
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

He said that because he knew they were going to kill him. He did not teach of sacrifice or atonement. What sense does sacrifice or atonement make? Would you require the death of an innocient person to pay for the sin of another? If you wouldn't, how much more great is God than you? What kind of God do you believe in that would ever require blood sacrifice? Jesus taugh of a loving, caring Father of all.

Dude, I'm not God. I don't know why. Why are you badgering me over it? Read Isaiah 53, look at the Day of Atonement sacrifice. Everything in the OT points to Jesus. Isaiah 53 is just as rich in Christian theology as any of the gospels.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Our Father in Paradise is changeless. But the concept of his nature has enlarged and grown from the days of Moses down through the times of Amos and even to the generation of the prophet Isaiah.

1. Yahweh — the god of the Sinai clans. This was the primitive concept of Deity which Moses exalted to the higher level of the Lord God of Israel. The Father in heaven never fails to accept the sincere worship of his children on earth, no matter how crude their concept of Deity or by what name they symbolize his divine nature.

2. The Most High. This concept of the Father in heaven was proclaimed by Melchizedek to Abraham and was carried far from Salem by those who subsequently believed in this enlarged and expanded idea of Deity. Abraham and his brother left Ur because of the establishment of sun worship, and they became believers in Melchizedek’s teaching of El Elyon — the Most High God. Theirs was a composite concept of God, consisting in a blending of their older Mesopotamian ideas and the Most High doctrine.

3. El Shaddai. During these early days many of the Hebrews worshiped El Shaddai, the Egyptian concept of the God of heaven, which they learned about during their captivity in the land of the Nile. Long after the times of Melchizedek all three of these concepts of God became joined together to form the doctrine of the creator Deity, the Lord God of Israel.

4. Elohim. From the times of Adam the teaching of the Paradise Trinity has persisted. Do you not recall how the Scriptures begin by asserting that “In the beginning the Gods created the heavens and the earth”? This indicates that when that record was made the Trinity concept of three Gods in one had found lodgment in the religion of our forebears.

5. The Supreme Yahweh. By the times of Isaiah these beliefs about God had expanded into the concept of a Universal Creator who was simultaneously all-powerful and all-merciful. And this evolving and enlarging concept of God virtually supplanted all previous ideas of Deity in our fathers’ religion.

6. The Father in heaven. And now do we know God as our Father in heaven. Jesus' teaching provides a religion wherein the believer is a son of God. That is the good news of the gospel of the kingdom of heaven. Coexistent with the Father are the Son and the Spirit, and the revelation of the nature and ministry of these Paradise Deities will continue to enlarge and brighten throughout the endless ages of the eternal spiritual progression of the ascending sons of God. At all times and during all ages the true worship of any human being — as concerns individual spiritual progress — is recognized by the indwelling spirit as homage rendered to the Father in heaven.

reply to post by UB2120


UB...Jesus taught more than you are alluding to. Actually, John the Baptist, Jesus Christ, and Paul all taught the exact same gospel. All three said.."Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." So the gospel includes the act of repentance. This repentance is from the sin that people have. Furthermore, Peter the Apostle (in his epistles) notes that we are to be holy as God the Father is holy. So loving God and your brother fulfills the law but keeping the law never saved anyone. Even the rich young ruler seemingly kept the law and yet walked away from Jesus Christ to which Jesus said his going to heaven was impossible. The bible must be weighed and considered in its totality....

Originally posted by DanUKphd
Yes. If you don't believe the bible which you can prove using simple maths then yes you're going to hell. There's a mathematical authentication code in the Bible and anyone who can count to a hundred is capable of proving the bible. Sorry to be so abrupt but unless you see the truth you're going to hell.

Wow. I am pretty good at "simple maths" but somehow the bible didn't add up for me. I guess I am screwed. IT'S DA TROOF!

There are many individuals in this world .posing as Christians,that are not.

Some of these people are politicians, religious leaders and business leaders.

I am pretty sure the Italian mafia,the drug cartels and many of the other western crime organizations.

Evil will deceive people in many ways.

As long as you have goodness in your soul and TRY to live a life that is without evil you will,at some point in your existence find what you were seeking.

reply to post by IamJustanAmerican

There are many individuals in this world .posing as Christians,that are not.

Well duh, that's why Christ warned to beware of the "wolves in SHEEPS clothing".

I think this thread sums up why people believe in any religion: Because they don't know what happens after you die. If you think about Christianity it is based solely on what happens after death. People are naturally curious and scared about death and nobody is able to come back after dying and tell people what really happens. So religion gets the susceptible people of the world entrapped into believing. The truth of the matter is: when you die, nothing happens, black out with no ability to think or dream of any kind. No feeling, no fear, no happiness... nothing. You're gone and that's all there is to it. Medical science has proven this with physical evidence in the form of the cessation of electrical activity in the brain. The bible has yet to prove anything that it states has actually occurred . People just take it's word for it and when any body tries to disprove it they say "But the bible says...." presenting the bible as evidence of it's self. I could write a book saying that there are mice living on the surface of pluto that have intelligence beyond our own. Would I then be able to present my book as evidence of my claims?

reply to post by AzumiRM

If you think about Christianity it is based solely on what happens after death.

Well, I don't agree that it's all about what happens after death, Christ radically changes your life in the here and now. But lets say for argument's sake you're right, that it only affected us after death.

Would that be so wrong considering we prolly will live to 70 years old on Earth and after that eternity never ends?

reply to post by Elsha


Actually John the Baptist, Jesus and Paul taught different messages.

Check out this link about John the Baptist ( www.urantia.org... )

John preached, repent and be baptized for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Jesus considered him the last of the old order of prophets. John's mission was to lead the way for Jesus. The apostles Andrew and Simon Peter were first disciples of John before joining Jesus. Several of Jesus apostles were either already following John or were on their way to John when Jesus called them to apostleship.

John was a fiery preacher and did not hesitate to denounce the rulers. That is why he was imprisoned and ultimately killed. Jesus didn't attack the religious leaders personally, he attacked their bondage to ritual and ceremony.

If you would like to read what the Urantia Book has to say about Jesus I would highly recommend it. ( www.urantia.org... ). There are several hundred pages of his life and teachings.

One thing I think people need to break themselves from is the thought that the bible is the only information available about God. God is no respecter of persons, races, nations, religions or planets. All true teachers from God always preach this and try to spread their message to all the world. So don't think you will get punished if you seek info about God outside the pages of the bible.

Concerning Paul, he taught a pretty different message. Paul took the teachings of Jesus and turned them into the teachings about Jesus. Also, Jesus did not ever teach about atonement or original sin. So you can look it up in your bible check out Jeremiah 31:29 or Ezekiel 18:2. Jesus used these quotes to illustrate how sin is not passed on from father to son. Paul also had low regard for women. He even taught that no man should touch women since he did not. Jesus taught that women is man's equal.

You are correct that Jesus taught more, but the core of this message was the Fatherhood of God, that you are a Son of the eternal God and that means all men are your Brothers.

I don't know, but good people like Job, who is not on a religious gang member, God did acknoledge him. So I guess, good people will survive. But there's no one without sin. For this purpose, Jesus Came and save human being.

Have u encountered a supernatural occurance? In my muslim majority country, if a man, who is possesed by demons cannot be helped, they seacrh for the cross people (christian). Because the demons cannot win against Jesus. What do you think of that?. There are things we cannot see and fully understand lurking about the earth.

I hope that helped.

reply to post by UB2120


You're correct about John, the Baptist. He did, indeed, preach a message unlike Jesus, and that was the purpose of his message. He was meant to prepare people for Christ's message.

However, you're incorrect that Christ did not teach about atonement. He did, and that's very clear from Matthew 20:28: "just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

Originally posted by Leahn
reply to post by UB2120

 

You're correct about John, the Baptist. He did, indeed, preach a message unlike Jesus, and that was the purpose of his message. He was meant to prepare people for Christ's message.

However, you're incorrect that Christ did not teach about atonement. He did, and that's very clear from Matthew 20:28: "just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

You might be new here, let me offer some advice. If you want to be respected around here you cannot offer true statements about Christianity or Christ.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
You might be new here, let me offer some advice. If you want to be respected around here you cannot offer true statements about Christianity or Christ.

I am new here, but I didn't quite grasp your advice. Probably because I am new here, and I lack context. Care to elaborate? Most likely on a private message as this conversation is off-topic?

reply to post by Leahn


In my opinion those were not the words of Jesus. It does not match the message that he taught. Again, he tried to break man from the age long beliefs in sacrifice and ritual. Why would he teach about a loving God of all men in one breath and then say he must be sacrificed. The whole concept of sacrifice is incompatible with the God Jesus taught about.

Edit: sorry posted in wrong thread