Chinese think tank says Christianity is what made the West successful.

Originally posted by hippomchippo
...I'm pretty sure they don't just have Jesus on their side giving them cash.
Infact, one would think Jesus wouldn't support a country that is growing economically but instead one that is humble and poor, wouldn't he?

That is the conclusion of a person ignorant of Jesus words.

Jesus told several parables with economic themes...
...that contain advice which still works today.

Christians are not to make an idol of anything including money...
...it is not money that is 'evil', it is the love of money.

I suggest you do some research before making uninformed comments.

Originally posted by FriedrichNeecher

Originally posted by inforeal
Did the Christians treat Africans and Native Americans like brothers? Or even Jews for that matter.

You people are in fantasy land!

Curiously at least by their actions , anyone claiming to represent christianity properly by worldly imperialism failed to do so in accordance with their claimed religious master. I can claim to have murdered, rapped and stolen in your name, so at what point does that make YOU responsible for the actions done in your name by me?

edit on 8-3-2011 by FriedrichNeecher because: (no reason given)

If you had told me that raping, murdering and stealing were okay as long as they were heathens, or a book written by you says it's okay in certain situations, then yes, I would certainly blame you, aswell as the leaders of the country that allows it.

reply to post by FriedrichNeecher


Ever read the Book of Judges?

Sit down with your bible and a cup of cocoa and have a read.

reply to post by Stormdancer777


The post is about a claim that Christianity is the historical reason for the advance of the West. That’s what the theses of the OP is.

I am merely demonstrating that if pillage, rape, murder, and genocide are Christian, then true believers should want nothing to do with it.

If you forget history you have no context


On the other hand I recognize the goodness and saintly works of many TRUE Christians throughout history who I am sure didn’t justify the acts of the European powers.

But don’t give me this crap about Western Christianity being holy with all the crimes and violence behind it.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by Stormdancer777

 

Really? Christianity's "improved"?

Tell that to Iraq.

Well you would have to believe the total motivation for invading Iraq was to convert the people to Christianity, and believe it was a holy war,

Originally posted by troubleshooter

Originally posted by hippomchippo
...I'm pretty sure they don't just have Jesus on their side giving them cash.
Infact, one would think Jesus wouldn't support a country that is growing economically but instead one that is humble and poor, wouldn't he?

That is the conclusion of a person ignorant of Jesus words.

Jesus told several parables with economic themes...
...that contain advice which still works today.

Christians are not to make an idol of anything including money...
...it is not money that is 'evil', it is the love of money.

I suggest you do some research before making uninformed comments.

That says nothing about Jesus supporting richer countries when we see in the bible he advocated being poor.
It's ridiculous and when you accuse me of having uninformed comments, it makes your own seem even more ridiculous, considering you insinuated a rising Christian population was responsible for Chinas rise and a lowering was responsible for Western decline when in reality the first Christian decline was responsible for the westerns rise, and Chinas current rise is due to sound economic strategy, not some deity.

reply to post by inforeal

But don’t give me this crap about Western Christianity being holy with all the crimes and violence behind it.

I didn't say that,

the bible says,As it is written, There is none righteous/holy, no, not one:

Originally posted by Stormdancer777

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by Stormdancer777

 

Really? Christianity's "improved"?

Tell that to Iraq.

Well you would have to believe the total motivation for invading Iraq was to convert the people to Christianity, and believe it was a holy war,

edit on 053131p://bTuesday2011 by Stormdancer777 because: (no reason given)

Have fun.
www.dailymail.co.uk...
It might not have been the sole reason, but Christianity was a major part of the Iraq war.

reasonable people, keep in mind that the bottom line of the op has to do with the final conclusion of a chinese think tank. it does not presume superiority of christianity, nor does it go into the very specific tenets to base the "western" success it talks about. in the name of christianity, people have done terrible things. does that make christianity wrong or even evil? that's argumentative. does the "success" of the west give rise to proclaim the greatness of christianity? that's speculative. no one has to agree with the op's article. no one has to agree to the premise that christianity was the impetus or drive necessary for the advancement of the west. no one has to agree that religion is manmade or divine. its something to think about and discuss without being crude or judgemental.

reply to post by FriedrichNeecher

Please good sir, point out which words of jesus justify the murder of anyone, or justification of any worldly imperialism, and your point is made in full view.


Umm,,,


Should we wait for the particular cites or do you want to run a search first to make sure?

You do realize, that doctrine is not modified by any heresy of the alleged followers, right?
Ummm,
Of course You can provide US with your own clear and reasonable bona fides as to your own authoritative representation and interpretation of christian doctrine for us, right?


Waiting....

I don't care what Jesus said, or didn't say, its irrelevant. The only thing that matters is what his followers did in his name. I was speaking purely on historical fact, not what the Bible says.

And I don't need "certification" to be an authority on fairy tales.

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

Kill Followers of Other Religions.

1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

Death For Blasphemy

One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

Infidels And Gays Should Die

So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)

God's Murders For Stupid Reasons

Kill Annoying Children

From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)

God Kills the Curious For Being Curios
And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and' fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us? (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)

One Guy Decides Not To Hit Another Guy And God Kills Him....With A Lion
Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)

There are lots more examples of this stupidity.

But my POINT, is the fact that Christians find their way of life superior in the usual Caucausion manner, and think that its a good thing to convert whole cultures to our way of life because those other cultures are "savages."

Example of "Savages":

i doubt if the english kept to their druid beliefs and still ran around in dearskins like savages with their face painted like geronimo, they wouldn't now be having 4:00 tea with crumpets.

OMG they're not Christian and they don't dress like us, they must be savages!

From what I've seen in this thread, the druid bashing just goes to show us how quickly Christianity would revert back to its former "glory" if we didn't have the separation of church and state and freedom of religion.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by FriedrichNeecher

 

Ever read the Book of Judges?

Sit down with your bible and a cup of cocoa and have a read.

Judges is a book of early Hebrew history...it is not 'Christian' as such...
...it dealt with issues of another time and culture.

Originally posted by troubleshooter

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by FriedrichNeecher

 

Ever read the Book of Judges?

Sit down with your bible and a cup of cocoa and have a read.

Judges is a book of early Hebrew history...it is not 'Christian' as such...
...it dealt with issues of another time and culture.

God chooses morality based on the culture?
Why are we still using the Bible then?

reply to post by Stormdancer777


Oh, it doesn't work that way, StormDancer. if Christianity gets the credit for the economic advancement of the west - which, as I have demonstrated actually runs directly counter to most of what you can find in the bible - then Christianity also needs to take credit for a war waged from one of these "Christian" nations, by a bunch of Christian soldiers, led by a guy who quoted scripture and talked to god personally.

'Course they weren't there to convert the Iraqis. Nor did the Israelites try to convert the Moabites; they just killed 'em and took their stuff, then praised god for the victory. And this makes them heroes according to the narrative of the book.

Christians - led by a man who insists Atheists could not be part of his country - burned Iraq to the ground once, then a bunch of Christians in Europe and America - the same places that are now getting economic credit for their Christianity, remember - imposed sanctions on this nation that resulted in the deaths of millions, especially among the elderly and the children. Which the Christian Secretary of State said "was worth it." Then those Christians, from a Christian nation, with other Christian nations in tow (the UK and, let's not forget Poland!) under the leadership of the first guy's son - himself an evangelical christian who quoted scripture, talked to god, and called his war a crusade - burned whatever was left, and decided to sit around and kill the men and women who took arms to liberate their country from this invading Christian army.

You could argue these people aren't following in Jesus' footsteps, and I'd agree. But that hasn't been a requisite for Christians since at least 80 AD.

If you think Christianity deserves praise for economics that baldly have no ties to religion of any sort, then Christianity certainly has to take the lumps for a declared holy war led and executed by people who regarded jesus as their personal savior and the son of god.

Originally posted by hippomchippo

Originally posted by troubleshooter

Originally posted by hippomchippo
...I'm pretty sure they don't just have Jesus on their side giving them cash.
Infact, one would think Jesus wouldn't support a country that is growing economically but instead one that is humble and poor, wouldn't he?

That is the conclusion of a person ignorant of Jesus words.

Jesus told several parables with economic themes...
...that contain advice which still works today.

Christians are not to make an idol of anything including money...
...it is not money that is 'evil', it is the love of money.

I suggest you do some research before making uninformed comments.

That says nothing about Jesus supporting richer countries when we see in the bible he advocated being poor.
It's ridiculous and when you accuse me of having uninformed comments, it makes your own seem even more ridiculous, considering you insinuated a rising Christian population was responsible for Chinas rise...

I did not say that...
...I am a historian and simply presented facts about China's relationship with Christianity...
...Christianity has not been involved in the politics or economic success of China.

[quoute]... and a lowering was responsible for Western decline when in reality the first Christian decline was responsible for the westerns rise, and Chinas current rise is due to sound economic strategy, not some deity.
Christianity was definitely a major factor in the rise and success of the West...
...you can not discount this if you know western history at all.

reply to post by Lawgiver


You make a good point.

Did the OP ever consider the possibility that the Think Tanks claim that Christianity [ as practiced by the West] with its crazy sectarianism, and strange idea of forgiveness of sin is what gave them the edge.


There may be the problem . . . that is the Christian doctrine of forgiveness and that Jesus already died for their sins, therefore the Western powers could go about doing anything they wanted to others since god already forgave them their sins.

It may be a back handed compliment

reply to post by troubleshooter


It's there in the Bible. It's the same god. Christian churches still cite scripture from it. Hymns are still sung about the Israelite' conquests from Christian mouths. The Old Testament - all of it - is part of Christianity. If it weren't, then it wouldn't be there, churches wouldn't use it, and only Jews would sing praise to the ancient Israelites.

Originally posted by hippomchippo

Originally posted by FriedrichNeecher

Originally posted by inforeal
Did the Christians treat Africans and Native Americans like brothers? Or even Jews for that matter.

You people are in fantasy land!

Curiously at least by their actions , anyone claiming to represent christianity properly by worldly imperialism failed to do so in accordance with their claimed religious master. I can claim to have murdered, rapped and stolen in your name, so at what point does that make YOU responsible for the actions done in your name by me?

edit on 8-3-2011 by FriedrichNeecher because: (no reason given)

If you had told me that raping, murdering and stealing were okay as long as they were heathens, or a book written by you says it's okay in certain situations, then yes, I would certainly blame you, aswell as the leaders of the country that allows it.

The intellectual challenge remains to find the or ANY words of your claimed lord and master entitling you to rap (or rape for that matter)kill or otherwise feed your eartly lusts for conquest and domination in every sense of the word. Yet again I maintain there are none and any claimed justification by misrepresentatives and other devious busybodies is null and void.
Just who are all these people who, having no demonstrable foundation in the faith they (mis)represent, claim nevertheless precedence to destroy it on their say-so, yet find no fault whatsoever with those that claim such action is acceptable in fact and in their doctrines, if inflicted upon non-tribememembers??

Originally posted by hippomchippo

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
reply to post by inforeal

 

We all know what happened in the past, and we need to take into consideration the mindset of the people during that point in human history,

One needs to acknowledge the strides and reforms Christianity has taken to improve, we all need to grow up.

Christianity did not improve itself, the people forced it to change with the times.

I think in many ways, both were responsible, from all the ancient history I have read on the subject,

But the lack by some to even give an inch when it comes to Christians, speaks volumes.

As I asked, what do you have against Chinese Christians ?

Originally posted by hippomchippo
From what I've seen in this thread, the druid bashing just goes to show us how quickly Christianity would revert back to its former "glory" if we didn't have the separation of church and state and freedom of religion.

Precisely.

If they don't dress like us or worship our God they are savage, heretic, heathens; and if that be the case its quite alright to force our culture down their throats, and if they won't accept kill them.

I feel sorry for the Native Americans.

Good for nothing savages.