Bill on Texas Secession presented to Texas Legislature

reply to post by Sinnthia


Did I force you to come to this thread? I made this thread in the correct forum, as it is breaking political news. How dare I, huh.

I am simply rebutting and refuting your incorrect arguments. That is what I have done since page 1.

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
reply to post by Sinnthia

 

Did I force you to come to this thread?

Did I say you did?

I made this thread in the correct forum, as it is breaking political news. How dare I, huh.

I have no idea what this is a response to. You go on with your bad self and make all the threads you want. I am not trying to stop you. You already have two on just this one topic. Go crazy as far as I am concerned. Take a breath.

I am simply rebutting and refuting your incorrect arguments. That is what I have done since page 1.

Really? My entire argument is "If you hate it here so much, then leave already." I guess I missed all your rebuttals to that because all I see are excuses why you are still here, still whining about wanting to go.

I get it. You want us to give in and beg you to stay. Sorry that did not happen. Good luck with it in your other thread.

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
Perhaps you should re-read the OP? Something is happening.

"Something" is happening you say?
Let me know when that "something" is actually anything and maybe it will mean something. Until then, all that "something" is, is a bunch of you begging to get out.

Let me get the door for you.

If Texas or other states started seceding I don't think it would change too much. Texas is too economically tied to the rest of the country (and vice versa) to make it worth either nation's while to cause conflict over it. You'd have trade between the two. A pretty open border between the two (I think Texas may get weird about that at first, but it would eventually abate). There are countless people in Texas who have friends and relatives in other states, there are Texas kids going to college in other states, etc., and they aren't going to start breaking up families over something like this.

I think you'd have very lax immigration laws, at least for those who were US/Texas citizens to begin with.

As a Liberal, North-easterner, I for one hope Texas DOES secede! The way I see it, that's two fewer Republican Senators, and a net loss of 14 Republican Congressmen from the House of Reps. From the standpoint of someone who believes that Republicans are doing great damage to this country, I would be glad to see them go.

(It would be a shame to loose Austin, though. Cool town. And I wonder what my friends who live down there now would do? Some would probably emigrate back to the U.S.)

Originally posted by Sinnthia

. . .

Yes, really. Once you subtract the federal funding from your national guard, what will you have left? How many troops? Planes? Bombs? Tanks? Bases? Maybe you think the Federal government is going to tie it's own hands and just match you man for man? You can say "National Guard" all you like. I see no actual break down of the forces and equipment you will be left with after the federal government closes off its bases, takes back its equipment, closes off its land, recalls its troops, and stop funding your National Guard.

Let's see what you got left.

Again, the Texas units belong to the state, as evidenced in links a few pages back.

As for bases . . . some can be used, and others can be sold.

I am not seeing a problem here.

Oh, right. Armaments.

Most nations spend 1.5-2% GDP on defense.

That would be 28 billion out of a 1.44 trillion GDP. That would put Texas at #11 on defenses spending.

Did you think I meant that the roads would cease to exist? Sorry but the federal government is not going to just hand over access and continue to maintain those. Those belong to the federal government and will remain that way. Of course, Texas can raise taxes and build a parallel system but it will have to buy access from the United States.

You really should learn to do some research.

Just in the area I am in.

B&M Bridge - Owned by Union Pacific Railroad

Gateway International Bridge - Owned by Cameron County

Veteran's International Bridge - Owned by Cameron County


And the corridor in Laredo that I cited?
World Trade International Bridge - Owned by the City of Laredo

You also have to be smart enough to understand that allowing a neighboring ENEMY nation access to so many federally owned biways becomes a matter of national security for the US and it is doubtful that you will just be given all this federally built and maintained infrastructure. Airspace would surely be completely open and unsecured thus giving Texas airports the same level of access it has now.

Blah blah blah. Read above. You are dead wrong.

You are too funny. Yeah, the roads will be there. They just are not yours to keep. You do not get to run away and take the family car with you.

As I said before, Come and Take IT!

Sure they will. Your well researched numbers are overwhelming while Texas record of begging for federal funds to bail out their crop losses stands for itself.

Texas as a GDP of 1.44 trillion. We get back only 96% of that TOTAL (as evidenced by link in previous pages. That includes all highway funds, disaster relief, etc.). That 4% is roughly 57,600,000,000 that Texas loses each year. More if we happen to not ask the government for some of our money back.

Do the math.

What the hell makes you think I would want it?

. . .

You are the one crying about the federal government not letting Texas have stuff

:shrug:

reply to post by LifeInDeath



We both know that Texas isn't serious about secession. It's just conservative bluster and chest thumping hoping for some media attention. Even my dear old Southern Baptist, conservative, Republican, white as rice mother just laughs at the notion.

Even if Texas tries to secede it will be tied up in the courts for decades and the only people that will benefit from all this BS are the lawyers. Eventually it will all fade away after the 2012 elections regardless of who is elected. Any body with any sense at all can see that this isn't against the Washington establishment; it's against Obama.

Reply to post by whaaa

Perhaps you could do some research.

Secessionists have always had a movement in Texas. TNM, which happens to be the big one at this time, and who is behind this bill, was founded in 1998. A bit before Obama. Just a bit.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
Again, the Texas units belong to the state, as evidenced in links a few pages back.

Again, I never tried to refute that. You keep asserting it for some reason though. Not sure what is up with that.

As for bases . . . some can be used, and others can be sold.

Yup, Texas has some bases. Still not sure what you are arguing.

I am not seeing a problem here.

Because you are trying not to. The fact that Texas is not actually seceding should seem like a problem to you.

Oh, right. Armaments.

Most nations spend 1.5-2% GDP on defense.

That would be 28 billion out of a 1.44 trillion GDP. That would put Texas at #11 on defenses spending.

Uh huh. Texas spends some money. Your break down of the post secession armaments that will be retained and full funded/manned must be coming later.

You really should learn to do some research.

Just in the area I am in.

B&M Bridge - Owned by Union Pacific Railroad

Gateway International Bridge - Owned by Cameron County

Veteran's International Bridge - Owned by Cameron County


And the corridor in Laredo that I cited?
World Trade International Bridge - Owned by the City of Laredo

And...? Your "style" of arguing is fun to watch. I claim that the promise of free squirrel will not rouse the populace at large, to which you respond that I am wrong because you like squirrel. I point out that the federal government owns and will not just hand over the major shipping corridors and you respond by pointing out that Texas owns some bridges and stuff.

OK!

Blah blah blah. Read above. You are dead wrong.

What do those bridges have to do with our perception of the new Nation of Texas as an enemy threat? What does it have to do with bordering airspace?

As I said before, Come and Take IT!

Yeah cuz how would the entire US military ever take on the Texas National Guard.

Texas as a GDP of 1.44 trillion. We get back only 96% of that TOTAL (as evidenced by link in previous pages. That includes all highway funds, disaster relief, etc.). That 4% is roughly 57,600,000,000 that Texas loses each year. More if we happen to not ask the government for some of our money back.

Do the math.

You should really go back to your sources and try your math all over again but hey, I would be happy to just concede.

Texas is so big and tough and self sustaining that it should be its own nation. You win. Ok, now get to it!

You are the one crying about the federal government not letting Texas have stuff

You still here? I am not crying about anything. I am simply introducing a little reality into your fantasy. You are the one wanting to run away from the big bad US. Why can't you get away? What is it you need from other people in order to fullfill that independant streak you claim to hold so dear?

:shrug:

Are you shrugging from American soil?

Reply to post by Sinnthia

Oh good lord.

Trolls need reading comprehension.

I will break it down for you in nice and easy bite size tidbits for you when I get home.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
Reply to post by whaaa

 

Perhaps you could do some research.

Secessionists have always had a movement in Texas. TNM, which happens to be the big one at this time, and who is behind this bill, was founded in 1998. A bit before Obama. Just a bit.

Hey, have you read this?

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
Actually, this is the first time this has been brought before the legislature in quite awhile. They tried two years ago and were denied on a technicality.

You two argue this one out.

Reply to post by Sinnthia

A movement does not equal a bill brought before a legislature.

Keep reaching for straws.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
Reply to post by Sinnthia

 

Oh good lord.

Trolls need reading comprehension.

I will break it down for you in nice and easy bite size tidbits for you when I get home.

No thanks. I am not looking to be convinced that you can and should leave. I have conceded that and wished you the best of luck. Any further attempts to convince me you are right instead of actually doing it will only go to prove the lack of sincerity so apparent to most other people. Please save your typing fingers for all that grabbing guns and defending your bridges and squirrel supplies.

If you were even a little correct about having the right to leave and being in the right for wanting to, you would not even be trying to convince anyone how right you are. You would just be leaving.

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
Reply to post by Sinnthia

 

A movement does not equal a bill brought before a legislature.

Keep reaching for straws.

Yeah, it did not make any sense the two times you tried to use it to refute what I said about the movement either but it was your argument, not mine.

Reply to post by Sinnthia

Where did you say that?


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Reply to post by Sinnthia

Ahahaha

Another back peddle. This is so priceless.

If you care so little, why are you still here?


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
reply to post by Lemon.Fresh

 

You and your buddy here do not seem to understand why those states were readmitted. They were not readmitted on the basis that they were foreign nations prior, they were readmitted because without readmission, they'd merely be territories of the United states. The point of readmission was for the Southern delegates to gain representation in congress again.

It makes no sense to argue that they were forced back into the Union then had to apply to join as a seperate nation. This would assume that the Federal government had circular logic at the time, but reality points to this being not the case. Without readmission the confederate states would just be territories, land part of the United states but without representation in congress.

No, what "makes no sense" is to simultaneously claim that they stood in need of "readmission" to the Union while at the same time claiming the were already IN the Union.

They were, in fact a foreign nation, with it's own constitution, government, military, trade, etc. It was called "The Confederate States of America", to distinguish it from "The United States of America".

Lincoln was either a) making war upon his own people, or b) making war on a foreign power. What he WANTED to believe in the matter was irrelevant, and had no bearing on realities on the ground. Denial is a strange thing. I understand that there are a few die hard Brits even to this day that refer to the US as "The Colonies", refusing to admit that those colonies have formed a separate country.

At least you can be assured that you are not alone in your denial.

Edit to ad: on the "territorial" issue - where do you think "territories" come from? Are they gained from formerly foreign areas, or are they made by "demoting" previously full member states? Can you name another instance where such a full member state has been demoted to territorial status by a nation?

Separation Does Not Fix Broken -- it Simply Separates

Ah ha. Some sound reasoning.

The problem with groups like the Texas Nationalist Movement is that they have a "grass is greener" mentality while they constantly attack the present and complain about what is broken, ignoring the fact that nothing broken has ever been fixed by simply walking away from it or walking away and taking a part of the brokenness with you.

Besides, the secession movement is fringe territory at best and although many Texans might give independence a passing thought, it is not seriously considered as a true political alternative to the existing system, however flawed. And Texans don't need an Alamo to fight for reduced taxes. In fact, among other things, they can do exactly what the Texas Nationalist Movement members did on March 6...

SOURCE

Sure there are natural resources and potential for long term sustainability but, the fatal flaw in the concept appears to miss a few Key points.

For starters, ever been through a divorce? There is no long term amicable relationship.

Import and Export of all goods and services would be subject to tariffs, taxes and duties.

Federal crime laws, extradition and national LEO agencies would require new systems.

Natural resources and National parks belong to the entire United States. Key word United You can't just take your ball and run home.

Passports or Visas would need to be issued for all travel to and from.

All National organizations and Union membership would be nullified and require renegotiation:
Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA)
Amalgamated Transit Union (ATU)
American Federation of Government Employees (AFGE)
American Federation of Musicians of the United States and Canada (AFM)
American Federation of School Administrators (AFSA)
American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees (AFSCME)
American Federation of Teachers (AFT)
American Postal Workers Union (APWU)
American Train Dispatchers Association (ATDA)
Brotherhood of Railroad Signalmen (BRS)
Farm Labor Organizing Committee (FLOC)
International Association of Bridge, Structural, Ornamental and Reinforcing Iron Workers (Ironworkers)
International Association of Fire Fighters (IAFF)
International Association of Heat and Frost Insulators and Allied Workers
International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers (IAM)
International Brotherhood of Boilermakers, Iron Ship Builders, Blacksmiths, Forgers and Helpers (IBB)
International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW)
International Longshore and Warehouse Union (ILWU)
International Longshoremen's Association (ILA)
International Union of Bricklayers and Allied Craftworkers (BAC)
International Union of Elevator Constructors (IUEC)
National Air Traffic Controllers Association (NATCA)
National Association of Letter Carriers (NALC)
National Nurses United (NNU)
United Automobile, Aerospace & Agricultural Implement Workers of America International Union (UAW)
United Steel, Paper and Forestry, Rubber, Manufacturing, Energy, Allied Industrial & Service Workers International Union (USW)
ETC..........................................

Sure the idea might sound appealing to TPM and lunatics , but I seriously doubt ANYONE with an iota of common sense has considered the INFINITE details/ ramifications required. It makes a nice bumper sticker.

This whole notion is a pipe dream, the fantasy of a group of mental midgets sporting Cowboy hats.

Hi ho Silverrrrrrrr.

Originally posted by kinda kurious

For starters, ever been through a divorce? There is no long term amicable relationship.

I've been through two. You'll no doubt find this hard to believe, but I can be somewhat difficult to get along with In both cases, there was a "long term amicable relationship" afterwards. Perhaps TOO amicable a few times...

Import and Export of all goods and services would be subject to tariffs, taxes and duties.

As imports NOW are subject to tariffs, taxes, and duties. Not seeing a problem there.

Federal crime laws, extradition and national LEO agencies would require new systems.

It would seem to be a Federal Problem if they feel a need to adjust their crime laws afterwards. Not seeing the problem for Texas here.

Natural resources and National parks belong to the entire United States. Key word United You can't just take your ball and run home.

National Parks are, well, National Parks. They would of course reside in a new nation, and belong to it. Natural resources are NOT the property of the nation as a whole - only those on public lands. Again, they would be on the public lands of a new nation, belonging to it. Natural resources on my own lands, for example, right here in the good old US, are mine. Anyone wanting to take them will negotiate a contract and pay royalites on what is removed - not to the nation, to me.

Passports or Visas would need to be issued for all travel to and from.

As is currently the case with foreign travel. Not seeing the problem.

All National organizations and Union membership would be nullified and require renegotiation:
Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA)
Amalgamated Transit Union (ATU)
American Federation of Government Employees (AFGE)
American Federation of Musicians of the United States and Canada (AFM)
American Federation of School Administrators (AFSA)
American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees (AFSCME)
American Federation of Teachers (AFT)
American Postal Workers Union (APWU)
American Train Dispatchers Association (ATDA)
Brotherhood of Railroad Signalmen (BRS)
Farm Labor Organizing Committee (FLOC)
International Association of Bridge, Structural, Ornamental and Reinforcing Iron Workers (Ironworkers)
International Association of Fire Fighters (IAFF)
International Association of Heat and Frost Insulators and Allied Workers
International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers (IAM)
International Brotherhood of Boilermakers, Iron Ship Builders, Blacksmiths, Forgers and Helpers (IBB)
International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW)
International Longshore and Warehouse Union (ILWU)
International Longshoremen's Association (ILA)
International Union of Bricklayers and Allied Craftworkers (BAC)
International Union of Elevator Constructors (IUEC)
National Air Traffic Controllers Association (NATCA)
National Association of Letter Carriers (NALC)
National Nurses United (NNU)
United Automobile, Aerospace & Agricultural Implement Workers of America International Union (UAW)
United Steel, Paper and Forestry, Rubber, Manufacturing, Energy, Allied Industrial & Service Workers International Union (USW)
ETC..........................................

REALLY not seeing a problem here!

I've disabled YouTube videos on this computer, and so have no idea what that was. Perhaps a short summary would be in order.

reply to post by nenothtu


Ironic you easily dismiss so many complex issues. Makes me wonder if you fully fathom their depth and scope. But for sake of rebuttal and since I'm fascinated by the absurd, may I assume that Texas won't mind picking up the tab for any/all actions related to their departure. Heck, redoing all those 49 Star flags alone will cost a small fortune.

Oh and I'm sure you won't miss having a huge NASA presence in your state. Aerospace isn't a big industry in Texas is it?

BTW, the You Tube clip was a fondly chosen B/W clip of Lone Ranger open from episodic series in the 50's and 60's, Offered in the spirit of nostalgia and fiction.

So I assume you are on wife #3? Speaks volumes regarding ability to learn from history.

Reply to post by kinda kurious

Hi again. The lunatic mental midget founding fathers would like to have a word with you regarding seperation not making things better.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com