Judge Forces Hysterectomy on God-Loving Woman

Originally posted by RRokkyy

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
reply to post by Stormdancer777

 

You should consider reading the more detailed article Hefficide linked to.

www.washingtonpost.com...

After L.K.'s cancer diagnosis, Dr. Valerie Knutsen sent a letter to the Missoula County attorney's office in September with concerns about L.K.'s ability to make medical decisions. A nurse sent similar letters in September and October. A petition to appoint a temporary medical guardian was filed in November. On Feb. 11, the temporary medical guardian signed a consent form for L.K. to have the radical hysterectomy.

Also note, like Hefficide said, the surgery is being delayed to give her time to appeal, which indicates the system is working as intended.

Your delusional.
You need immediate treatment.

Me?

Thank god, !!

I need surgery for carpal tunnel but can't afford it, is there a judge somewhere that will declare me unstable ?

prolly,

Originally posted by AxcidnKC
How can anyone side with the judge on this???? your telling me that i don't have a say about what goes on with my body? This is the most absurd thing i have ever heard. I don't care if she is religious or not, that has nothing to do with it. Its her body... therefore her choice!!!!

If someone is delusional to the point of being self-harming and incapable of making decisions, then someone needs to step in.

You may not like that - but if you had a daughter who was about to kill herself due to mental illness, and you could only stop her by having her found incompetent to make decisions until her condition was stablized, wouldn't you?

"Mom, I'm insane and going to hack off my fingers one by one with a steak knife, then slit my throat. My choice."

Choosing to kill youself with anorexia, or a disease is really not different than choosing to kill yourself by stringing a rope over the banister.

Well there you have it, right in the text of the article.

Her religion wasn’t specified, but a psychiatrist and a physician from the Montana State Hospital termed her religious beliefs — including one that God had cured her — delusional.

That in its self suggests she's a whack job!

So a mythical character came down and cured her! Bwaahahaaa.....I'd like to see the recorded statement of that!

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


You do know I agree with you don't you? Being of sound mind and body.... makes all the difference in the world.
People are disputing who is the judge of this soundness? Doctors, the patients family, their pastor, the pre- described will of the patient? Tough questions. Anyone who stands to gain anything at all from the patients death should probably not weigh in. Doctors of course should weigh in...But what if you are a doctor and you need the bed?

If a person has cancer their insurance company will pay only for certain recommended treatments and nothing based on holistic, superstitious or religious beliefs. Choosing something unorthodox over the best medical consensus at the time requires that a person pay for it themselves. Similarly the doctors absent the competency of the patient herself had to make and go with their best judgment. All proper and fine. There will be rare exceptions but as a matter of course this is what doctors must decide and do.

reply to post by Aeons

You may not like that - but if you had a daughter who was about to kill herself due to mental illness, and you could only stop her by having her found incompetent to make decisions until her condition was stablized, wouldn't you?

Absolutely, but it isn't easy to get someone declared insane,

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
reply to post by Aeons

 

You may not like that - but if you had a daughter who was about to kill herself due to mental illness, and you could only stop her by having her found incompetent to make decisions until her condition was stablized, wouldn't you?

Absolutely, but it isn't easy to get someone declared insane,

I would hope that it wouldn't be easy. The bar you have to jump to prove insanity or incompetence should be very very high.

I would like to think we have a right to our body, and no one has the right to tell us otherwise. We are learning that drugs and surgeries are not always the best thing for us in the long run, i watched my mother die from liver failure because she received cancer treatment, it killed the cancer but its was like a nuclear war in her body. It was the hardest death i have ever witnessed not because she was my mother, but the way she died, thanks to our so called "smart society"

Now for myself, if i had cancer, I will tell myself "it is gone!" even when it isn't because we all know the power of the mind, and sometimes positive affirmations are all we need to manifest what we desire. If someone thinks Im a insane because i believe that, then they should offer to treat my insanity, not cure my disease; so send me to a psychologist and he can give me drugs to help me "think better" and i can refuse them too... meanwhile, if i die because i refuse treatment, is it really any loss to the world? Why the need to fight so hard for some crazy person to keep going right?

Now if she is treating her cancer with chemo but refuses surgery because she wants children, that is hypocritical, and there would be a price to pay.. she should still have the freedom to choose, but think about it; if they wont even take the organs of a dead person who received chemo once in their life, Is that ANY place to grow a child? you are better off taking the whole uterus out, Again, her insanity should be treated first!

reply to post by JewelFlip


While I can agree that delusional religious people make stupid choices.

Those choices are still theirs to make.

That judge needs to be forced to get a vasectomy.

I know you guys dont see the difference. But there is one.

Imagine that someone slips you a hallucinogen. A really really strong one. And while you are on the hallucinogen, you are hit by a car. You need immediate surgery to save your life, but you are still under the effects of the hallucinogen and you, believing the doctors to be demons, scream at them to leave you alone.

Should they ignore the fact that you are out of your mind and delusional and respect your wishes to leave you alone?

Or should they recognize that you are mentally impaired, and save your life?

Our system in general recognizes that there is a need to intervene medically for people who cannot give consent, either because they are insane, on drugs, or even unconscious. If we did not do that, imagine how many people would die while everyone stood around waiting for them to regain consciousness and give consent.

im not 100% sure, but i thought (here in canada) they had to get the consent of a family member, husband, wife or parent. Because they dont have that right.

There's a fine line between religious belief and mental illness... When people believe in "god" it's religion, when "god" starts talking to people and telling them what to do, it's mental illness...

thats an old famous evil quote, "when you talk to god, its called prayer, but when god talks to you its called insanity" i know alot of them old quotes!

But this is only true for those who fear God and his coming. Because this world does not want people to hear God's voice and to listen, they might actually do what he says, they might actually start loving each-other, they might stop being so greedy, OMG and they actually might not fear ANYTHING, the whole system is dependent on our fear, hate and sins, The whole system is dependent on us fighting with each-other over every little thing so we dont see the greater evil that is really going on behind closed doors. We JUST CANT HAVE people talking to God, the System will Crash!!!! SO lets call them insane and lock them up! Because killing them isn't working anymore, the people dont trust us when we kill them all the time.

Truth is, meditation is listening to God; Opening your chakaras is hearing God. More and more people are not afraid anymore to hear God and be called insane; more people are listening. If you know anything of the Indigo and Crystal children, you will know they are the bringers of the light, they have always been here, but in the 1970's a massive amount of indigo came. Today nearly every child born, is an indigo child.

The crystal children are the ones that will have eternal life. The crystal children cannot enter this world until the indigo fight for them first, otherwise they will be killed. All the crystal children that have been here already have been killed. One day everyone will be a crystal child but not until the end of the indigo age. indigos are fighters, and that is being manipulated against them. they should be using that to fight the evil in the world, but instead they are fighting with each other. A crystal child can only be born form a crystal child, and crystal children would never fight. The first mixed indigo crystal children are the ones that will get Cancer and cure it with out any outside help, Only God. There will be a genetic change in our DNA that will show the switch. They will pass this ability on to their children, who will live longer and longer, because of their ability to heal.

I could go on and on, but then it would be off topic.

The question about this whole thing still begs itself: when did it ever become ok for the state to make decisions on the behalf of an adult patient? This whole thing pisses me off, whether or not she is insane, it makes no difference. Human life is soooooo precious that the nanny state has to decide what is best for us?

Give me a flippin' break.


Anybody that supports this judge is against freedom of choice, and is a bad guy in my book.


/rant




Peace be with you.

-truthseeker

Originally posted by JewelFlip
Talk about a news article loaded with what divides ATS members! While I have a working relationship with my god, I can't believe this woman wouldn't accept the hysterectomy. But for a judge to force it on her! Unreal. Apparently your religious beliefs can get you labelled delusional.

In all fairness, just from the article we have no way of knowing the woman's true state. It is very possible to be both religious and delusional. She was not choosing to have children, she was choosing death. Not having children is not even remotely a sin. Committing suicide may be.

Beyond that, yes it's wrong the Court should make these decisions, but a Court should be involved if Family and Loved-Ones take the action.

Originally posted by truthseeker1984
The question about this whole thing still begs itself: when did it ever become ok for the state to make decisions on the behalf of an adult patient? This whole thing pisses me off, whether or not she is insane, it makes no difference. Human life is soooooo precious that the nanny state has to decide what is best for us?

Agreed!

I don't normally respond to these kind of things... but last I looked, I was responsible for my own life. We can choose to smoke, drink, eat fast food, take up dangerous sports - join the army if we like. But how is it that a person can't choose to let 'nature take it's course'? Why can't we choose to NOT have INVASIVE surgery?

Honestly there are a great many medical procedures that I'd consider not having - even if it meant certain death. Think about what we're saying - that it's ok to take someone against their will, drug them, cut them open - remove some bits, and sow the person back up again, all for their own benefit???

If it's family putting the pressure on, then I have a little more sympathy for the case for intervention.

Originally posted by Blaine91555
Not having children is not even remotely a sin. Committing suicide may be.

Is refusing to have extreme intervention suicide? Are you sure?

Is not looking after yourself therefore tantamount to suicide?

Perhaps not having good insurance is suicidal?

Perhaps owning a dangerous vehicle (Daewoo Nubira anyone??)

Rant over :-)

reply to post by JewelFlip


Very scary. This nation was founded on being able to practice your religious beliefs as you see fit. Her beliefs hardly seem so zany to me as to be called delusional. In fact, even if it were not for her religious beliefs, I would still say that without any doubt whatsoever she has the right to determine control over what happens to her own body. If she is willing to gamble with her life, in the hopes of one day still being able to have children, that should be her right. Even there, it's not even really gambling with her own life. It is more a matter of letting nature take it's course. Maybe god should just outlaw death altogether, and can all be good little Coppertops.

Originally posted by ldyserenity
You do know why they did this right? It is to set a precedent the precedent being if you try to use your religious beleifs to opt out of obamacare

Oh, I thought all the paranoia about Obamacare was over by now and everyone realised that the death panels etc were just the product of hysterical propaganda..
Vicky

reply to post by JewelFlip


This case is just begging to be overturned.

But I'm going to take a moment just to be amused at the notion of a bunch of fundie Christian right-wingers suddenly adhering to the principle that her uterus is her business, and not the state's. I'm sure they'll never actually catch on, but it'll be amusing to watch nevertheless.

The issue here isn't someones choice to refuse medical treatment. Its whether or not the patient was mentally competent to make decisions about her treatment. Doctors wouldn't even lift a finger if there was no sign of mental incompetence, but when the patient states that her cancer was "cured" by God and refuses treatment on that premise as her physicians are telling her that the cancer is still rampant - that raises questions.

A hysterectomy is something physicians want to avoid at all costs, it is literally the last defense. Without it she will die. If the patient understands that she will die without the procedure and still refuses, then there is nothing the law or medicine can do, it is patient autonomy - probably the most important ethical issue in medicine. A patient has a right to refuse treatment as long as the patient is mentally competent to make that decision. I consider treating a patient against their wishes is just as bad as killing someone against their wishes.

Originally posted by JewelFlip
Talk about a news article loaded with what divides ATS members! While I have a working relationship with my god, I can't believe this woman wouldn't accept the hysterectomy. But for a judge to force it on her! Unreal. Apparently your religious beliefs can get you labelled delusional.

Found another source:
helenair.com...

As a sidenote: I did not make this title up, its just what it was labelled.

edit on 7-3-2011 by JewelFlip because: Sidenot added

edit on 7-3-2011 by JewelFlip because: source added

I fully believe religious people ARE delusional. However, it is no reason to force a hysterectomy on a woman. This is disgusting. Assuming her beleif isn't hurting anyone, why is it anyone elses business?

I'm a little disturbed by this story.

I think all you people bickering need to stop and do something you probably rarely do here. READ THE ARTICLE. Seriously, it's clear as day maybe 3 of you read the article. The rest formed an opinion based on what you think is going on, and are whining and bickering about it.

Read the article.

When an adult is in a state as such that they can not make informed medical decisions about themselves, the family or other legally appointed (power of attorney) entity can make that decision. Declaring yourself miraculously healed and denying treatment (when you are in no way healed) is a perfect example of when the doctors need to do whatever is best for that patient.

Beyond the fact they didn't force anything on her, this treatment is necessary.

reply to post by JewelFlip


First of all, if the women wants to keep her uterus is her choice, regardless, Uterine cancer (that is probably what she have) is very painful and because the tumors that forms in the uterus she probably will never become pregnant.

This type of cancer spreads to organs outside the body and that is why is so painful.

If she is doing it because she wants to have children, well that is a slim chance that she will, but the pain and suffering is not.

This brings me to a case of a teacher at one of the schools I worked back in the 90s, she was a "Christian" woman and she also believe that her breast cancer was going to be cure by god, and her believes, sadly by the time she realized that she was going to die from no receiving treatment it was too late.

While I believe in miracles, sometimes we most rely on medicine for a littler help, along with the prayers.