Fallen Marine's father says anti-gay pickets will draw gunfire

I don't think "God" has anything to do with these people. Their entire organization (which is what, 20 people?) is just a money making scheme that preys on people in highly emotional situations who have done nothing wrong. Freedom of speech is important, yes. I think its a bit extreme to force them to stop protesting, but at the same time they should have the common human decency to leave people alone.

All the buzz over the freedom of speech seems to have made people forget that one person's rights are supposed to end where another person's begins, such as the right to attend a flippin FUNERAL without being pestered by morons. In my book they can protest whatever the hell they want as long as they do it in an environment where people aren't forced to hear it if they don't want to. Would it be okay for me to start preaching Satan worship in the middle of Wal-Mart with a megaphone? The pigs would haul me away for public disturbance. How is what these people are doing not the same thing?

On another note, I think fighting fire with fire is the best method. Everyone needs to surround their church on Sunday morning and protest THEM. Make signs that say "God hates hypocrites" or "God doesn't exist" or advocate Satanism, abortion, war, whatever meets your fancy. Not that I think anything with God in it will matter to them, because I personally think none of this is about religion at all. They obviously haven't read the Bible anyway.

Originally posted by duke396
Would it be okay for me to start preaching Satan worship in the middle of Wal-Mart with a megaphone? The pigs would haul me away for public disturbance. How is what these people are doing not the same thing?

If you do it 300 yards away on public property, like they do, then it would be okay.

reply to post by muzzleflash

I would love to see how the tables would turn if someone exercising their rights showed up at a close loved ones funeral. With all our "rights" here in America, my favorite is hypocrisy!

Violence isn't the answer, but honestly, if they do drive someone to violence through their provocation, I won't be shedding many tears for them. Sometimes, you can only kick something so many times before it bites back.
I dislike them for giving Christianity a bad reputation. If they come under fire, it won't be me defending them. They will have gotten themselves into that mess, and it will be up to them to get themselves out of it. Too bad they're not wise enough to back off and avoid such a situation before it happens.
Just my 2 cents

Originally posted by duke396
Not that I think anything with God in it will matter to them, because I personally think none of this is about religion at all. They obviously haven't read the Bible anyway.

edit on 5-3-2011 by duke396 because: (no reason given)

I disagree, I think it is fuelled by their religious belief based on certain biblical scriptures taken out of context, ie. cherry-picking scriptures to suit their agenda. In my opinion it seems they don't understand nor care about the Bible's message as a whole, but if they weren't fueled at least significantly by their religious views, they'd drop the pretenses of a church organization and preach what they do without religious connotation, ie. as a secular borderline hate group
(I hope what I'm trying to say makes sense, it's 3am here, lol)

reply to post by HardbeatAcolyte


I agree entirely with your points about the WBC's lack of awareness of Gods messege, and I would echo you thoughts about thier motivations, and the likelihood that if not for the religious aspect of thier prattle, they would find a different point to attack people from, very likely along the lines of a balls to the wall hate group. To be honest, that wouldnt be nearly as appalling as them blaspheming all over the place and giving the rest of Gods people a bad name.
Christ did not go round making bad times worse for good people. He did not abuse people when they were already suffering. He overturned the tables of wealthy traders in his fathers house, yes he did. He consorted with the lowest in society, and bought them hope, yes he did. But at no time did he walk up to the sons , the fathers, the mothers and wives of the dead, and dishonour thier name, nor did he behave in a passive agressive manner, by doing it JUST out of reach of the law. That the idiots in the WBC choose to ignore his awesome tact and diplomacy, and the power of his messege , does not give them the right to advertise themselves as messengers of God, and behave in this manner.

reply to post by SMR


I wouldn`t want them killed but a little cat piss and vinagar will go a long way. Can`t help but think "wheres a drunk driver when you need one?" In this country you should be able to say any dumbass thing you want but not where you want, I`m not going to go in the middle of Harlem and start yelling out 'n-word' then get pissed when i get the crap kicked out of me.

Originally posted by HardbeatAcolyte
Violence isn't the answer, but honestly, if they do drive someone to violence through their provocation, I won't be shedding many tears for them. Sometimes, you can only kick something so many times before it bites back.
I dislike them for giving Christianity a bad reputation. If they come under fire, it won't be me defending them. They will have gotten themselves into that mess, and it will be up to them to get themselves out of it. Too bad they're not wise enough to back off and avoid such a situation before it happens.
Just my 2 cents

edit on 5/3/11 by HardbeatAcolyte because: (no reason given)

Christianity had a bad reputation way before these people. How many atrocities have been commited because it was "God`s Will?"

Originally posted by StratosFear
reply to post by SMR

 

I`m not going to go in the middle of Harlem and start yelling out 'n-word' then get pissed when i get the crap kicked out of me.

You should still have a legal right to take that risk if you want. The reality of it, is that it would be very stupid and dangerous to do this, but wouldn't it be a better world if something like this would not phase anyone?- Like if no one got offended by any insults.

It seems like we all want curse words and racial slurs and offense itself to exist even though none of it really harms anyone. Offense only harms us because we allow it to harm us. So when we become offended we are giving our stamp of approval to an irrational social trend and giving that negative power to all things offensive. I mean doesn't it all seem so silly when you step out of society for a moment and look at it? Someone says a series of sounds (let's first just consider those occurrences of offense where no one feels threatened) and then all of a sudden everyone around them feels angry or sad. And for what? Likely some reputational concern which we wouldn't have if we all thought about it more.

In all honesty, I do not feel they are "Preaching Gods Word" at all. I think they know this as well. I think they are here to annoy. Get attention for some other agenda (15min?)
They are all pretty much members of either law enforcement or lawyers. It's just funny how the entire "Family" is either in one group or the other. Go to any other group and you have a diverse group of members involved in many areas of the work field.
Why is it that they are all cops or lawyers ? Side note. Funny to see that a few have been barred from it Wonder what they did or if it was in any way in connection to WBC ?
To me this just points to the thought of WBC not being church going folk, but more of a CULT. Cults have agendas. I have to wonder what the WBC agenda is.

I will say it again. They should be arrested for harassment and defamation.

Originally posted by Epiphron

Originally posted by duke396
Would it be okay for me to start preaching Satan worship in the middle of Wal-Mart with a megaphone? The pigs would haul me away for public disturbance. How is what these people are doing not the same thing?

If you do it 300 yards away on public property, like they do, then it would be okay.

300 yards from "WHO"
Just because they are 300 yards away from their "Target" does not mean they are not harassing others.

reply to post by tncryptogal

I just read quite a lot of that info in the link you posted. It would seem this giant mess has barely anything to do with homosexuals or religious doctrine and everything to do with the corrosive multigenerational effects of child and spousal abuse. Whatever demons drive Fred Phelps, it's clear he wants to extend the abuse he used to heap on his wife and children to every person he can possibly reach.

I am beginning to understand better why Jesus ordered us to pray FOR our enemies. He understood our "enemies" may be the wretched people they are for reasons we may never know. As much as I despise the WBC and everything they do I can't help but worry what they are doing to those poor innocent children they are dragging to their hatefests. It is very chilling to me to read of Jonathon Phelps talking about continuing the way he was disciplined onto his own children. I'm two generations down from a horribly abused orphan myself so I understand the effort it takes to get rid of the scars and aftereffects from a family even generations after the original abuse. So I can't bring myself to despise these people themselves (just what they do) as much as I did prior to reading the link provided. I'll pray for them to heal and stop the madness they are inflicting not just on innocent outsiders but on their own as well.

In other observations, isn't it chilling to see how a bunch of lawyers can inflict terror on whole communities and paralyze anyone within their legal reach into stunned silence? If that doesn't show us our system is somehow badly effed up, I don't know what does. Apparently if you have enough lawyers in your family you own this country. Hot Damn! That's messed, man.

Originally posted by SMR


I will say it again. They should be arrested for harassment and defamation.

They are on public property saying their opinion. Public property means we all own it and so we can all use it to say whatever we desire. That is why this country is great.
People are entitled to their opinions even if their opinions are about specific people. We are all a part of each others' consciousness and therefore have a right to comment on each other.

What exactly do you mean by defamation? I am not sure what the exact definition is in regard to the law but I looked it up as a general term and saw that it sometimes means saying false things about people and hurting their reputation. I will say that as defined like this, maybe it should be illegal, though I would have to think about that more. But saying true things about people should never be illegal no matter how offensive these true things are.
Now the Westboro Baptist church says some things that are true, such as the fact that American soldiers serve America and therefore in some way support our laws and also those laws which support homosexuals. They also say some things that can neither be proved true or false, such as the fact that God hates these soldiers and homosexuals and sends them all to Hell. Since they cannot be proved true or false they have to be regarded as opinions. We all have the right to hold any opinion we desire and to state these opinions. Think of how dangerous it would be if, say, there was a majority of people who were utterly offended by anti war protests, for example, because they thought it disrespected soldiers who die and wanted to make these illegal too. It is a slippery slope that we should not allow even in the slightest.

Originally posted by StratosFear
Christianity had a bad reputation way before these people. How many atrocities have been commited because it was "God`s Will?"

Do you mean biblically, or the actions of later (post-Christ) groups?

Regarding killing and other deeds recorded in the Bible (Old Testament specifically), I think that everything God did, and commanded others to do, was justified in that only the one who created can justly destroy, and only an omniscient being can rightfully judge. A lot of the OT may sound very harsh, especially to a modern audience, but I believe that an omniscient creator is a much better judge than any limited being.

If you mean atrocities committed by people identified as Christians who came after Christ, I believe that their actions were not supported by God, ie. not 'God's will' at all. I believe leaders would oftentimes use a religious pretext to further their own agenda, for instance the crusades and expansion. Not only were such atrocities/killing/acts of war sins in the eyes of God (as he hadn't approved of them), they were also blasphemous, in that those who committed them falsely claimed to be acting with God's approval.

But, I digress. In any case, the Westboro Baptist Church is only serving to further tarnish the reputation of those who claim to be followers of Christ, myself included

Freedom of speech is not freedom to be rude and insulting. Take your protest down the street, and stay awat from funerals. Why is that too much to ask..?

reply to post by TrueBrit

Totally agreed, well said

reply to post by SheeplFlavoredAgain

I agree, we can only hope they change and realize the error of their ways. I remember reading about a top KKK leader who turned his life around and became an all-round decent guy, encouraging love and peace, and actively denouncing what he previously stood for

EDIT: Think it was Johnny Lee Clary

reply to post by LS650


"Freedom of speech is not freedom to be rude and insulting. Take your protest down the street, and stay awat from funerals. Why is that too much to ask..?"

Because Free Speech is so extremely and utterly important that it trumps preventing the extra emotional damage added on to a person mourning. We need to protect minority view points the most. Think of the fact that only a couple of hundred years ago it was a minority view point in America that slavery should be illegal. Now I am not saying that what the Westboro Baptist Church preaches is in anyway as valuable a viewpoint as that of abolitionists in our history- by no means, but who gets to decide which minority view points should and should not be allowed to be expressed? Certainly it should not have been slave owners in the 1700s.

reply to post by mattdr


I never said they cant have "Free Speech" on public property. The "Illegal" part comes from harassment regardless if on public or private property.
The defamation part comes from words, spoken or written, that they use. Im not talking about the opinionated stuff like "God Hates Fags" and all that crap. I'm talking about the stuff they spew while holding those signs.

When does their "opinion" become something that they feel is fact and it ends up having negative affects on the other person.
People have had their businesses run into the ground because of these people. They protest businesses and customers have enough of it and never come back. They end up closing because they don't have enough business to keep open.

As far as "opinion" goes. They believe what they say to be "Fact", not opinion. Who decides what is opinion or not ? If they say it is fact, can we say, no, that's your opinion ? If they say their words are facts, then there is your defamation case. They say it is fact when it is not (opinion)

Originally posted by SMR
I will say it again. They should be arrested for harassment and defamation.

Defamation of who? The soldier is dead, therefore he can't be defamed. The father defamed himself by wasting 5 years of his life only to pay $100,000 to people that are glad his son is dead.

300 yards from "WHO"
Just because they are 300 yards away from their "Target" does not mean they are not harassing others.

Protesting is not harassment. They're not chasing after people and threatening them, they're standing at a street corner and saying their beliefs. Again, the people at the funeral had no idea what the signs said or what the group was saying. They were not harassed in the least.

reply to post by Epiphron


Who said anything about it being directed to just dead soldiers ? They protest and speak to and about others, living and dead.

Protesting on a street corner is fine. But watch the videos. People pass by and they scream their chants. Again. Not fully directed at their "Targets". They want to get their word out to everyone in the vicinity.
It becomes harassment when you have WBC shouting in the faces of passerby's when someone asks them to stop. Rather than walk away and not have an issue, they continue, which is harassment.

Originally posted by Epiphron
The father defamed himself by wasting 5 years of his life only to pay $100,000 to people that are glad his son is dead.

WOW ... wasted huh. Such a waste to try and protect others from the same vile people so they don't have to go through what he did. Such a waste that he tried everything he could for the love of his son ... yeah, such a waste.