Fallen Marine's father says anti-gay pickets will draw gunfire

Originally posted by BelaLugooey
I believe the Phelps Klan, like the KKK and Nazis, are sub-human.

That's exactly how the KKK and Neo-Nazi's think. They consider people they oppose politically as subhuman.

That's the point of all of this.

Originally posted by wiggleworm
Yes this group has the right to do what they are doing. Should they? Absolutely not!

I live in Kansas and see them in the news more than I would like to. They are not only protesting soldier and homosexual funerals either. That is what their message is about but they protested a 14 year old girl's funeral here in Kansas last summer. She was kidnapped and murdered...how does that fit in with their protesting?

There are people here who have said "They are going to get themselves killed one of these days, someone will have enough" So to hear that in the news does not surprise me in the least.

They know the law and they are manipulating it to their advantage. The only way they will be stopped is by violence I am sad to say. I do not condone violence to solve problems but I sure would not be sad either if something happened to them.

It just shows how low their morals are.

If they had one ounce of compassion, regardless of whose funeral it is, they'd understand there is a time an place for everything. To demonstrate with hateful messages at a funeral......sick...a breach of the peace... lock them up.

Originally posted by rationaluser
reply to post by muzzleflash

 

God complex holier than though syndrome if ever I saw it, let's see you "react calmly" if one of your family gets picketed by these creeps let's see the red mist descend and all logic and rational thought disappear from your mind.

It happens to everyone because it's in our gene's if i held my finger an inch from your face and screamed at how your mother/father/brother is a "fag or fag enabler" let's see you keep your cool then.

I would laugh at them, and ignore them.

How do you know I haven't already been through this EXACT thing for years now? You don't.

And I will try at all costs to not lose logic or rational thought. They are the key to transcending our barbaric nature and embracing "civilized" etiquette.

I am not holier than anyone, I am promoting equality of liberty for all humans no matter what their political affiliations are backgrounds happen to be.

By thinking you can strip others of their freedom since you disagree with them, you are setting yourself on the high horse actually.

westboro baptisit church people are crazy! they came to my school and held a "protest", so me and a couple of friends decided to protest with them with funny signs that said "leave Brittany alone!" "where's Waldo!?!" "soylent green is people!". it was such a good idea because everybody just laughed at them and nobody took them seriously.

KILL HATRED WITH COMEDY!!!
;P

Originally posted by JonoEnglish
It just shows how low their morals are.

If they had one ounce of compassion, regardless of whose funeral it is, they'd understand there is a time an place for everything. To demonstrate with hateful messages at a funeral......sick...a breach of the peace... lock them up.

In a strange paradoxical way, here is what is happening.

Fred Phelps is trolling, but for a purpose. To bring the totalitarians out of the woodwork and make light of the double-standards in our "politically correct" society where freedoms are trampled daily.

Reacting emotionally only shows your hand, and it reveals the true nature of authoritarianism and absolutism.

If Fred Phelps has no right to say what he wants, than neither do you.
By seeking to gag and silence him you are seeking to silence and gag yourself.

Could we please tone down the over-emotional melodramatic reaction and think about this clearly in a philosophical manner please?

Originally posted by zptramel
westboro baptisit church people are crazy! they came to my school and held a "protest", so me and a couple of friends decided to protest with them with funny signs that said "leave Brittany alone!" "where's Waldo!?!" "soylent green is people!". it was such a good idea because everybody just laughed at them and nobody took them seriously.

KILL HATRED WITH COMEDY!!!
;P

Your sense of humor is rather brilliant and exactly what we need.

We need people to turn this into a joke, rather than a life and death situation.

People are controlled by their emotions however, and are easily baited into becoming exactly what they despise.

I salute your genius approach and excellent tactics. You are a wise person.

reply to post by muzzleflash


I'm all for freedom of speech, however there are times when that freedom should be restricted. We are talking about a private matter, to an individual who has died. The grieving relatives struggle to cope with the day of the funeral as it is, mourning their loss without having a group of people shouting insults and protesting in ear shot of them.

Do you think it's acceptable for a group of white men to confront a black woman in the street minding her own business calling her every racial insult under the sun? They will call it freedom of speech... i call it wrong.

Originally posted by SMR
Then perhaps the laws should be changed. Made more clear. Hate is hate no matter how you display it. In a march. On a sign. Hate should not be protected by any Constitution, period. If you allow it to be protected, then when will we change as human beings.
Just to be clear - "I Hate Monday's" is different from "I Hate Gays"

So what you are saying is that you would like to use the law to censor what YOU hate? Should then the WBC be allowed to use the law to outlaw homosexuality?

Can't have it both ways.

And please don't come back with how you don't 'hate'.

There is nothing wrong with hate. I hate lots of things. Some deserving, some just personal. I really hate religious fanatics like those at the WBC. REALLY. I will still defend their right to express their hate of things.

reply to post by muzzleflash

One of the biggest problems with this country is "Political Correctness". To say it nicely Westboro needs a butt kicking. There's a place and time for everything, this isn't it! I could care less about their freedom of speech, how about a little respect for the one's that have fallen for their Right to protest and hold up their hate signs.

Originally posted by zptramel
westboro baptisit church people are crazy! they came to my school and held a "protest", so me and a couple of friends decided to protest with them with funny signs that said "leave Brittany alone!" "where's Waldo!?!" "soylent green is people!". it was such a good idea because everybody just laughed at them and nobody took them seriously.

KILL HATRED WITH COMEDY!!!
;P

Nice one!

...and who says we should be worried about the youth of today?

Originally posted by quber
how the hell can you say that!!! so abusing the child isn't a required action to make possession possible?

If someone is not involved in a crime, and they possess some material that already existed, which they are not responsible for producing or distributing, then what ''crime'' have they committed ?!

What ''wrong'' did they do, other than own an image or video that violated the moral sensibilities of the nation ?


You see, a certain section of American people love to idiotically parrot phrases such as ''personal freedom'' in an attempt to justify and sledgehammer their personal beliefs home, yet you'll find that every single American who professes to support these concepts, only does so when they personally set the ''rules'' on what constitutes ''freedom''.

Originally posted by JonoEnglish

Do you think it's acceptable for a group of white men to confront a black woman in the street minding her own business calling her every racial insult under the sun? They will call it freedom of speech... i call it wrong.

edit on 4-3-2011 by JonoEnglish because: (no reason given)

Actually we should allow such behavior based upon principal.

By them ranting at that poor woman, it will show their point of view as backwards and absurd.
Thus all of society can see truly how backwards such mentalities are.

That is why freedom of speech is so important.

By outlawing such behavior you are forcing the bigots into the underground, where far more dastardly things will occur in the cover of darkness.

I prefer to know who the ignorant people are up front. I do not wish for them to hide it. By hiding it and sweeping it under the rug, such societal issues will never be resolved.

We will never know what types of ignorant ideas exist, and we will not have the opportunity to debate them intelligently in the public arena and defeat them with knowledge and rational thinking.

Originally posted by muzzleflash

Originally posted by JonoEnglish
It just shows how low their morals are.

If they had one ounce of compassion, regardless of whose funeral it is, they'd understand there is a time an place for everything. To demonstrate with hateful messages at a funeral......sick...a breach of the peace... lock them up.

In a strange paradoxical way, here is what is happening.

Fred Phelps is trolling, but for a purpose. To bring the totalitarians out of the woodwork and make light of the double-standards in our "politically correct" society where freedoms are trampled daily.

Reacting emotionally only shows your hand, and it reveals the true nature of authoritarianism and absolutism.

If Fred Phelps has no right to say what he wants, than neither do you.
By seeking to gag and silence him you are seeking to silence and gag yourself.

Could we please tone down the over-emotional melodramatic reaction and think about this clearly in a philosophical manner please?

Muzzle mate...I like your posts ( I don't agree with all of them ((edit in fact most of them, however I do like your passion you put across)), )....BUT....this is someones funeral!

Seriously, a time and place for protesting, a funeral isn't one of them.

Originally posted by mtnshredder
reply to post by muzzleflash

 

One of the biggest problems with this country is "Political Correctness". To say it nicely Westboro needs a butt kicking. There's a place and time for everything, this isn't it! I could care less about their freedom of speech, how about a little respect for the one's that have fallen for their Right to protest and hold up their hate signs.

You are contradicting yourself.

The way to respect the sacrifice the soldiers made is to respect the freedoms they died for.

Gagging protesters is the exact opposite of what they fought to defend.

Please think about this.

Originally posted by JonoEnglish

Seriously, a time and place for protesting, a funeral isn't one of them.

I appreciate your posts as well Jono. Thank you for being willing to have a fruitful debate on philosophy and principals. I respect that.

But I want you to realize that this is merely your opinion. And that other people have disagreeing opinions.

The Law is designed to protect us from having people squash and silence our opinions.

We should respect each other's opinions and defend their right to express them, even if they are standing on the sidewalk next to a graveyard. The same rules apply.

We are debating about a subjective issue, not an objective one. There is no clear cut right or wrong here, only emotions and personal opinions.

The Law protects both of us from having this stripped arbitrarily.

I am defending the right to Protest against WBC's church, by defending WBC's right to protest against other's religious views. Peaceful protest is what our country is all about.

You can choose to not get angry or upset, as I have chosen to not become upset. It is not that hard. I highly recommend it.

Originally posted by squirrelmasta
I think that many of you have taken the fathers comments and taken them to be a threat and this has lead to the debate of free speech n so forth. In reality the fathers statement is not a threat it is the truth that one comes to after analyzing the facts. The facts are that you have protesters at military funerals who are voicing unrelenting and unrestrained hatred in the most offensive manor possible. Whether this is their right or if it goes to far can be debated all day but they are doing it and that is a fact. You have military funerals attended by grieving family and friends who are in a very emotionally compromised state, that is another fact. Some of these funerals are attended by the comrades of the fallen, these are military members that have been trained to kill, been to a combat zone, and in some cases possible even the current funeral watched their brothers in arms die, so they are also in a very emotionally compromised state that is another fact. These funerals also contain the military personnel present to do the honors, the number depends on the level of honors requested by the family, that is another fact.

Add all these facts up and the sum is pretty obvious, sooner or later someone will turn to violence. When it does it will not be about freedom of speech or who has what rights. It wont be about anything that deep it will be about exactly whats on the surface; someone who was very sad and very angry just lost control and gave into their basic instincts.When it happens whoever acts upon it will probably say afterward that they "just wanted them to stop" not some long winded argument about rights or speech. Honestly you make large groups of emotional unstable people angry enough times, don't be surprised when sooner or later they act on impulse.

I am a veteran and I do not condone violence upon these protesters, however i will understand and most certainly not be surprised when it happens. I also wont feel bad for the protesters, if you play with fire expect to get burned.

Ah, this is exactly what I think. And you stated it very eloquently.

Perhaps they should stop them for their own safety. Maybe the family's should "riot". Then they can be charged with inciting a riot.

Oh, I don't care. I despise them, and wish they would just shut THU and suffer their own private hells in solitude, like the rest of us.

missed post from previous comment

Originally posted by Primordial
By the child porn merely existing a crime was committed, that is why it is illegal to possess.

So is it illegal for an American to possess images or videos of murders, assaults, or rapes ?

I would like to know what this law is.

Of course, if the law is based on moral indignation rather than freedom and logic, then that would certainly explain why a boy looking at intimate pictures of his 16-year-old girlfriend is a crime, as opposed to his ''freedom'' to watch real life footage of a stranger being murdered.

Originally posted by Primordial
It is not illegal to possess a dvd player but it is illegal to possess a stolen dvd player, even if you were not the one who stole it. Your analogy fails.

My analogy is rock solid.

Your DVD player analogy, on the other hand, is absurd and obfuscatory.

Originally posted by Primordial
Holding up signs and saying mean things is not a crime.

Neither is possessing indecent images of children. Oh wait, yes it is, and that is a crime that the ''freedom'' lovers approve of.

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes


You may have good points, but that is for another discussion is it not?

You are trying to turn the WBC debate into a debate on the legitimacy of child pornography.

I fear this is a derailment and deflection tactic you are employing. I would ask that you start a thread to discuss that issue specifically.

The reason it is not applicable is because in the instance of one, someone was harmed. In the WBC instance, no one was physically harmed throughout the entire debacle.

However, there are threats of harming them for their opinions.

The two subjects are so vastly different in their peculiarities that I do not see them as remotely related.

We are discussing the right to protest, while you continually bring up the "right to hold child pornography". Totally different discussion.

Start that thread and you can continue that there.

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes]

So is it illegal for an American to possess images or videos of murders, assaults, or rapes ?


My analogy is rock solid.

Neither is possessing indecent images of children. Oh wait, yes it is, and that is a crime that the ''freedom'' lovers approve of.

We are not discussing those subjects.

We are discussing the right to protest, and why it is unlawful to trample those specific rights to protest on public property.

You are going way off topic and bringing up totally different subjects and trying to derail this conversation by baiting others into unrelated debates.

Rather than an analogy, you are employing derailment tactics.