Did Jesus kill?

reply to post by IAMIAM

Really? If I had never known of Christ, yet I lived in a land agreeable to his commandments, I loved everyone and I loved my idea of God, would your idea of Christ condemn me?

Let's see what He says Himself...


"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by (through) me."

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Let's see what He says Himself...


"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by (through) me."

Ok, what does that mean? What does Christ look like? Is it the word "Jesus" like some magical spell? What do you think this means?

With Love,

Your Brother

Originally posted by IAMIAM

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Let's see what He says Himself...


"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by (through) me."

Ok, what does that mean? What does Christ look like? Is it the word "Jesus" like some magical spell? What do you think this means?

With Love,

Your Brother

I don't need to "think" about it. Lemme break the Greek down for you:

The way: ὁδός in the Greek, the transliteration is "hodos". Used metaphorically in this sense it means literally: "a course of conduct and pathway".

the truth: ἀλήθεια in the Greek, the transliteration is "alētheia". It means "what is true in any matter under consideration".

The Life: ζωή in the Greek, the transliteration is "zōē". It means "of the absolute fulness of life, both essential and ethical, which belongs to God, and through him both to the hypostatic "logos" and to Christ in whom the "logos" put on human nature".

no man cometh: ἔρχομαι in the Greek, the transliteration is "erchomai". It means "to appear, make one's appearance, come before".

but: εἰ μή in the Greek, the transliteration is "ei mē". It means "if not, except, but".

by: διά in the Greek, the transliteration is "dia". It means "through,by the means of".

me: Self-explainatory.



So let's see what we get from the original source:



"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way (a course of conduct and pathway), the truth (what is true in any matter under consideration), and the life (of the absolute fulness of life, both essential and ethical, which belongs to God, and through him both to the hypostatic "logos" and to Christ in whom the "logos" put on human nature): no man cometh (to appear, make one's appearance, come before) unto the Father, but by (through,by the means of) me."

In shortened "layman's terms":

"No man will come before God unless that man goes by the means of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice to get there."

"No one" means = none, zilch, nada, zero.

To find out what it takes to "go through" Jesus look at the words of the thief on the cross. He recognized who Jesus was, the Son of God and "Lord".

reply to post by adjensen


It's called an example. Ever heard of it?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by IAMIAM

 

Really? If I had never known of Christ, yet I lived in a land agreeable to his commandments, I loved everyone and I loved my idea of God, would your idea of Christ condemn me?

Let's see what He says Himself...


"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by (through) me."

I don't know how you interpret that. But I interpret it as through understanding Jesus and his life you will be able to reach god. Not worshipping Jesus.

reply to post by Vicarious10000


I simply use the Greek the verse was written in to interpret the verse. English is terribly fuzy and lazy language, Greek is rediculously precise. Verbs alone need to meet 5 conditions to be used.

Originally posted by TedHodgson
I think in the Original Bible there is a Story in the Book of Thomas That jesu (Jesus) Possibly pushed another boy of a Roof, However Noone was around at the Time to witness this But the Boy did die

The book of Thomas was never a part of the Bible, and was and is a non-canonical book for good reason. It's utter nonsense, and the Jesus in it bears no resemblance to the Jesus in the canonical books, which is a huge clue to its non-canonical nature.

reply to post by Vicky32


Did i say it was real? No.

Did i Suggest it Was real? No.

Do i belive anything in the Bible? No.

The Bible as far as im concerned is just a Collection of fabricated stories that teach vital life lessons, I was merely stating that what i said was a passage in the Book of Thomas And offerd no opinion on it

Originally posted by Vicarious10000
reply to post by adjensen

 

It's called an example. Ever heard of it?

I have no idea what you are talking about. You defended the Gnostics by stating:

No one enlightened believes that they are the ones who can access knowledge.

And I replied that you aren't well versed on the Gnostics, because that's exactly what they claimed. It is, in fact, the essence of their belief, that they, and they alone possess the knowledge needed to escape the material world, because they were enlightened.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
I don't need to "think" about it. Lemme break the Greek down for you:

The way: ὁδός in the Greek, the transliteration is "hodos". Used metaphorically in this sense it means literally: "a course of conduct and pathway".

the truth: ἀλήθεια in the Greek, the transliteration is "alētheia". It means "what is true in any matter under consideration".

The Life: ζωή in the Greek, the transliteration is "zōē". It means "of the absolute fulness of life, both essential and ethical, which belongs to God, and through him both to the hypostatic "logos" and to Christ in whom the "logos" put on human nature".

no man cometh: ἔρχομαι in the Greek, the transliteration is "erchomai". It means "to appear, make one's appearance, come before".

but: εἰ μή in the Greek, the transliteration is "ei mē". It means "if not, except, but".

by: διά in the Greek, the transliteration is "dia". It means "through,by the means of".

me: Self-explainatory.



So let's see what we get from the original source:



"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way (a course of conduct and pathway), the truth (what is true in any matter under consideration), and the life (of the absolute fulness of life, both essential and ethical, which belongs to God, and through him both to the hypostatic "logos" and to Christ in whom the "logos" put on human nature): no man cometh (to appear, make one's appearance, come before) unto the Father, but by (through,by the means of) me."

In shortened "layman's terms":

"No man will come before God unless that man goes by the means of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice to get there."

I am with you up until you add his sacrifice to it. Why add that? I and my sacrifice are the way, the truth, and the life, is never what Christ said. The rest I agree with you. It is by living as Christ. Amazingly, some people have done this without even hearing of Christ. They live as he did because it comes from the heart.

Those too will be saved.

Didn't Christ say he harvests where he sowed not?

With Love,

Your Brother

Originally posted by IAMIAM

Originally posted by adjensen
Christ did not rebel against the Law -- he affirmed the Law, in fact. Christ rebelled against the perversion of the Law by the established authority. This could be a legitimate argument against the current state of the church, but it is not a legitimate claim against the second century heresy of the Gnostics.

I believe the word he used was "FULFIL". He came to fulfil the law and the prophets, and he did. When he died on the cross, from his own lips he said "it is finished".

How can you fulfill the Law if you do not affirm it? Christ not only said that the Law was everlasting (it is, indeed, still relevant for Jews today), but that in many ways, it needed to be tightened, as per his comments on the nature of lustful thinking. The Gnostics, for the most part, rejected the Law, which is something that no Christian can do.

Originally posted by adjensen
What is the first commandment, both of the Ten and the Two? There is one God. What do the Gnostics teach? There are many Gods, and the one that the Jews worship is an ignorant bumbler, and not a god at all.

Have you studied Gnosticism enough to know they are not speaking of the Same God, but in a way that they understand it?

Yes, I have. The Gnostics were polytheistic. If you claim otherwise, you would be the first person I've ever seen to do so, and you would need to cite significant evidence that supports you.

The Gnostics held that the God of the Jews was not only an errant sub-deity, but that he intentionally misled people into believing that he was the Supreme Being. How can you possibly reconcile that view with Judaism?

My friend, on the matter of truth, by your own words you have not found it yet. I say I have found the truth of things with my path and my path is simply walking in Christ's footsteps. Why should I believe on anything you say if you cannot say you have found the truth.

Actually, what I said is that my posts are not about me or my view of the truth, rather about the historical facts regarding Gnosticism. We are all on paths that we believe will lead to the truth (well, those that seek the truth, anyway,) and it is not my intention to sway you from yours.

It is, however, my intention to correct misstatements about Christianity, and claiming that the Gospel of Thomas is a valid Christian text is one such misstatement, and claiming that the Gnostics just taught a "slight variation" of Christianity that still leads to salvation is another.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by IAMIAM

 

Really? If I had never known of Christ, yet I lived in a land agreeable to his commandments, I loved everyone and I loved my idea of God, would your idea of Christ condemn me?

Let's see what He says Himself...


"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by (through) me."

Through living your life filled with the Spirit of Love and Peace.

Originally posted by adjensen
How can you fulfill the Law if you do not affirm it? Christ not only said that the Law was everlasting (it is, indeed, still relevant for Jews today), but that in many ways, it needed to be tightened, as per his comments on the nature of lustful thinking. The Gnostics, for the most part, rejected the Law, which is something that no Christian can do.

Perhaps we are talking about a different Law? What is the Law that Christ came to fulfil to you?

Originally posted by adjensen
Yes, I have. The Gnostics were polytheistic. If you claim otherwise, you would be the first person I've ever seen to do so, and you would need to cite significant evidence that supports you.

God is omnipotent. If God chooses to reveal himself in many faces to people, Who am I to tell God he cannot do such?

Originally posted by adjensenThe Gnostics held that the God of the Jews was not only an errant sub-deity, but that he intentionally misled people into believing that he was the Supreme Being. How can you possibly reconcile that view with Judaism?

I am not Jewish, so I do not try to reconcile these things.

Originally posted by adjensen
Actually, what I said is that my posts are not about me or my view of the truth, rather about the historical facts regarding Gnosticism. We are all on paths that we believe will lead to the truth (well, those that seek the truth, anyway,) and it is not my intention to sway you from yours.

The truth is the point though my friend. You have walked your path for how many years, and still have not found the truth. How then can you be sure that you are walking the correct path, and that others are errant?

Originally posted by adjensen
It is, however, my intention to correct misstatements about Christianity, and claiming that the Gospel of Thomas is a valid Christian text is one such misstatement, and claiming that the Gnostics just taught a "slight variation" of Christianity that still leads to salvation is another.

Again, you do not know if their path leads to salvation. You do not even know if yours does.

That seems to be a precarious position from which to judge another's travels.

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by IAMIAM

Those too will be saved.

This is where you stepped into heresy. You just called Jesus Christ a liar in essence. And we get that He was the "sacrificial" Lamb of God because:

A. That's what John the Baptist said. Christ authenticated John's message by saying he was the greatest born of a woman.

B. Christ IS the passover Lamb.

C. Christ Himself said He came to give His life freely to die so that many could live.

You may have missed this theme running from Genesis to Revelation, but our "good works" don't inherit eternal life. Christ's life and sacrifice is our merits for justification. It's called the "great exchange", my condemnation for His glorification. My sin for His righteousness.

He died so that we could live.

reply to post by Unity_99

Through living your life filled with the Spirit of Love and Peace.

No, through His death. God poured out His wrath on His own Son who became sin at the cross.

We are not saved by what we do or don't do, but by what Jesus has done. There will be no boasting in heaven, Christ alone gets the glory, He is the hero of our salvation. Certainly not any of us. Loving others and being a peacemaker is simply a Christian's reasonable service, it's a fruit of repentance, not a work of salvation.

Originally posted by IAMIAM

Originally posted by adjensenThe Gnostics held that the God of the Jews was not only an errant sub-deity, but that he intentionally misled people into believing that he was the Supreme Being. How can you possibly reconcile that view with Judaism?

I am not Jewish, so I do not try to reconcile these things.

That, I think, is the root of your problem. You do not try, so you don't understand that they cannot be reconciled. You're equating ignorance with tolerance -- "if I don't see the contraction between Christ and Gnosticism, then no contradiction exists, and I can promote Gnosticism."

If Gnosticism is right, then Judaism is wrong, because two contradictory things cannot both be right (though they can, of course, both be wrong.) If Judaism is wrong, then Christ, as a Jew, is wrong, and being a follower of Christ has no more merit than being a follower of anyone who proclaims "be good to others". There's no point, in fact, of being a follower of anyone -- just be good to others and be done with it.

If you believe that your own good works are sufficient for your own salvation, as you seem to, then what's the point of claiming to be Christ's follower, since you're preaching a message that he clearly refuted?

Originally posted by IAMIAM


God is omnipotent. If God chooses to reveal himself in many faces to people, Who am I to tell God he cannot do such?

Apparently you and the Gnostics never took this passage to heart:

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

The truth is the point though my friend. You have walked your path for how many years, and still have not found the truth. How then can you be sure that you are walking the correct path, and that others are errant?

The measuring stick for TRUTH is the Word of God, the same Word who became flesh and dwelt amongst us. (John 1:1-3) The same TRUTH who said "I am the way, the truth, and the life..." (John 14:6)

If anyone teaches another gospel, another way, they are liars and heretics. Which the Gnostics clearly were. Their teachings were not merely Abiblical, but antibiblical.

Again, you do not know if their path leads to salvation. You do not even know if yours does.

Lies. Again, you make Christ a liar and false teacher if you really believe this. "The Way" is defined clearly. The way is Jesus Christ and His sacrifice at Calvary.

That seems to be a precarious position from which to judge another's travels.

We are instructed to judge truth by lining it up with the Word to protect ourselves from false teachers and wolves in sheep's clothing.

You're mincing Christ with heresies, not a good idea.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Through living your life filled with the Spirit of Love and Peace.

No, through His death. God poured out His wrath on His own Son who became sin at the cross.

We are not saved by what we do or don't do, but by what Jesus has done. There will be no boasting in heaven, Christ alone gets the glory, He is the hero of our salvation. Certainly not any of us. Loving others and being a peacemaker is simply a Christian's reasonable service, it's a fruit of repentance, not a work of salvation.

That seems fairly convenient. Christ suffers because of the judgements of others. Christ teaches to love all. Christ dies to show to love all.

Then his followers come along and say, "Look! He died, now we can be as bad as we want, as long as he died for us ya know".

I have seen the light. Thank you for dieing for me Jesus, now excuse me, I have some raping, murdering, and pillaging to go do in your name. Thanks for taking one for the team!


Bull#!!

Loving others and being a peacemaker is NOT a reasonable service of a Christian. It IS HIS COMMANDMENT! It is a Christians SACRED duty to doing the work of Christ. They should be willing to lay down their lives to these principles. Hypocrites! Do you not even know who Jesus was?

What arrogance? What indignation? What foul breath to send such words into the wind on?

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by adjensen

If Gnosticism is right, then Judaism is wrong, because two contradictory things cannot both be right (though they can, of course, both be wrong.) If Judaism is wrong, then Christ, as a Jew, is wrong, and being a follower of Christ has no more merit than being a follower of anyone who proclaims "be good to others". There's no point, in fact, of being a follower of anyone -- just be good to others and be done with it.

Star for you. Most people don't realize the basic law in logical reasoning... the Law of Non-Contradiction.

"Anyone who denies the law of non-contradiction should be beaten and burned until he admits that to be beaten is not the same as not to be beaten, and to be burned is not the same as not to be burned." ~ Avicenna

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Even this is metaphor, and the scriptures are distorted at that, put through the bloodline gatekeepers of Rome.

A friend and I had a really deep look at the true meanings behind the Crucifixion and its meanings from the basis of The Family.

There are a lot of meanings there. Basically the Lamb represents purity, being without blemish. They put a good man to death, would violate the elite and their offworld puppeteer's feeling they ever had dominion or contractual rights over this planet which they run like a one sided ying/yang, black white checkerboard floor of duality.

Now the true Grown Ups and Teachers overlooking the playground, and noting the bullies, could immediately choose to point out to the children that the piece of paper the bully was forcing others to comply with, his IOU's, were not legally binding, but this is a school of free will and highly interactive hologram where we are often lost in our dreams/thoughts. A thoughtscape school, that we need to wake up and become aware in, so to really participate in our own progression and understanding, not just be instructed, but walk the walk.

So instead of simply pointing out the invalidity of the paper, and the bullies tactics, the True Family/Adults/Teachers, did something different. One entered into our thoughtscape as Immanuel, so the Light is now with us, and not only overcame the illusion of death itself, but clearly demonstrated that their contracts were null and void, for darkness was never given the power or right to lay a hand on Light/Purity/Love.

So a True Higher Up, came to our level, became one of us, though had already walked the walk and learned the lessons.

All of the Family love us so much they would lay down their lives for us, they would take on all our hardship, except, we need to walk through the paths to be able to have understood and graduate one day, eventually in "time" even if it takes an "infinity" to do so, all on our own, with some help, but as a participator, saying, Yes to Love.

Note that we're talking about finding light in a book that is not all light. It too is coded like the checkerboard floor. Creator or Creator(s). Even the word in Genesis in its true meaning means more than one. Infinity does not like singularities, anything conceiving itself as one or any item being one, ie. this universe, is a singularity and finite. Infinity is the platform or foundation for everything, and it cannot be measure, there is no locale, not bigger/smaller, higher/lower, past/future really even, and there is No Time. Infinite Fractals as a metaphor, Infinitely expanded, all at once, with each scene or clip of the film forever there, of everyone's life, and Infinite One's, One-1111111111..........'s, and so forth. Even Genesis in its original language does not mean One.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/9a7dd07c89d7.jpg[/atsimg]

The dualtiy. The checkerboard floor. Solomon's Temple, Joachim and Boaz, the twin towers.

Its all about Love.