The Anatomy of an Alien Abduction

Originally posted by WhizPhiz
It's based on the estimations which I speak of in the opening post. Surveys of thousands of people suggest the numbers are between 1 and 6 percent of the population.

But what is that based on?

Originally posted by WhizPhiz
I am not insisting it is "reliable", it's far from reliable.

Your words.

Originally posted by WhizPhiz
So is hypnotism really reliable at all? Yes it is.

Originally posted by WhizPhiz
But is a tool worth using when no other avenue of research is available.

This is the basis of the self-serving loop that Kadinsky described. You are predicating this on the belief that there are aliens that manipulate human memories and that hypnosis is a reliable tool by which to uncover those memories. Once those memories are found (created), it "proves" the abductionists beliefs and the cycle continues.

If the tool is unreliable, then you must abandon it. Especially when that tool may be responsible for the creation of the phenomenon being explored.

Originally posted by WhizPhiz but there are many reasons to believe they aren't lying

No one here is accusing them of lying. You are making both a straw-man argument and false dichotomy; the only solutions to the phenomenon are not that this is actually happening or that the subjects are lying. The abductionists make that false dichotomy because it is easier to defend. But just because a subject may not be lying doesn't mean they are relating an objective reality either. Memory is subjective and ever protean.

reply to post by WingedBull

But what is that based on?

My 2nd reference:

The “abduction experience”2 is characterized by subjectively real memories of
being taken secretly and/or against one’s will by apparently nonhuman entities and
subjected to complex physical and psychological procedures.3 The number of such
experiences has been estimated by Jacobs (1992) as 5–6% of the population, and by
Hopkins, Jacobs, and Westrum (1992) as 2% of the population. More conservative
estimates may be derived by counting the actual number of cases that have been
reported by investigators. For example, Bullard’s (1994) survey of 13 investigators
yielded 1,700 cases.

Jacobs estimations come from surveys of thousands of people, I assume based on what answers he thinks indicates an abductions. The more conservative estimations would be around 1%.

Your words.

No, I said "Is it realiable at all? Yes it is". That's different. Saying it's reliable implies it works as desired the majority of the time. But I didn't quite say that.

This is the basis of the self-serving loop that Kadinsky described. You are predicating this on the belief that there are aliens that manipulate human memories and that hypnosis is a reliable tool by which to uncover those memories.

I am not predicting anything. There are many people who don't need hypnotism to recall parts of an abduction. Some don't even need hypnotism to be convinced they are being abducted. There are a lot of things that indicate people are being abducted. I think taking the time to investigate the phenomena more thoroughly using hypnotism is worth doing. You've made it clear that you do not, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Originally posted by WhizPhiz
Jacobs estimations come from surveys of thousands of people, I assume based on what answers he thinks indicates an abductions. The more conservative estimations would be around 1%.

But what did he base those numbers on?

Originally posted by WhizPhiz
No, I said "Is it realiable at all? Yes it is". That's different. Saying it's reliable implies it works as desired the majority of the time. But I didn't quite say that.

So which is it? It is reliable or not? It seems like you are equivocating.

reply to post by WhizPhiz


Some of you insist on dismissing hypnotic regression cases, Are you also dismissing the fact that the individuals actually had any kind of an experience with a UFO that peticular night and time at all?. But if you do that, there is a problem with the abductees' clocks, a supporting bit of evidence for their experience. The clocks still showed that they were missing time, usually about two hours. So what happened to those people during that time? If no UFO experience, nothing happened. But still there is the missing time aspect. You have no choice to dismiss that also. The final determination is that absolutely nothing happened, the clocks were misread, the people simply made the entire supposed event up or they were otherwise deceived. And you go away feeling self-satisfied that you solved the whole situation. Nothing happened, right!

The "logic" of your arguments is simple, "no. no and no." Each and every and all such experiences are denied. Does that sound like a familiar pattern?

Question is, when do you stop saying "No, once in awhile say, "Maybe," and perhaps even, "Yes" if you are open-minded and the physical evidence is impressive?

Can you allow a real alien UFO being sighted?
Can you allow that some beginning and end accounts that the person recalls from normal memory is correct?
Can you allow that a period of time was "missing" from that person's life?
Can you allow that hypnosis has some solid basis for legitimacy?
Can you allow that some of those recovered accounts are mostly correct to the best of the abductee's abilities?
Can you allow that ETs have the sheer mental power to take over the bodies and minds of the abductees?
Can you allow that ETs have a specific agenda that they are using to capture and indoctrinate their subjects with?
Can you allow that ETS have specific individuals and even families that they follow for perhaps generations?

Just what do you skeptics believe? Tell us frankly, many of us abductees are open about our experiences and why we believe. What do you have that justifies your always failed arguments trying to prove a negative? The Earth is no longer flat, and it is not alone.

Just what do you skeptics believe?

We believe in evidence.

Hypnosis is unreliable. Period.

What's listed here is what is known as the cultural scenario of "alien abduction" - which equates to the pop culture stereotype. It does not take into account the whole of the data, nor the outlier data which is highly significant. In mainstream UFOlogy, outlier data is routinely discarded. Hence, we get this hypnotically retrieved, junk data.

Memory as well as hypnosis is well covered at the link above.

Originally posted by Aliensun
Some of you insist on dismissing hypnotic regression cases

We don't insist on anything. The evidence demands we regard hypnosis as unreliable for memory recovery.

Originally posted by Aliensun
The "logic" of your arguments is simple, "no. no and no." Each and every and all such experiences are denied. Does that sound like a familiar pattern?

So?

Originally posted by Aliensun
Question is, when do you stop saying "No, once in awhile say, "Maybe," and perhaps even, "Yes" if you are open-minded and the physical evidence is impressive?

Open-mindedness has nothing to do with believing or not believing in paranormal events as objective reality. It is about being open to evidence, no matter where that evidence points to.

Originally posted by Aliensun
Just what do you skeptics believe?

Evidence.

Originally posted by AliensunWhat do you have that justifies your always failed arguments trying to prove a negative?

No one is trying to prove a negative.

Originally posted by Aliensun
The Earth is no longer flat, and it is not alone.

Historical fallacies do not make for a cogent argument.

Originally posted by WingedBull

Originally posted by Aliensun
Some of you insist on dismissing hypnotic regression cases

We don't insist on anything. The evidence demands we regard hypnosis as unreliable for memory recovery.

Originally posted by Aliensun
The "logic" of your arguments is simple, "no. no and no." Each and every and all such experiences are denied. Does that sound like a familiar pattern?

So?

Originally posted by Aliensun
Question is, when do you stop saying "No, once in awhile say, "Maybe," and perhaps even, "Yes" if you are open-minded and the physical evidence is impressive?

Open-mindedness has nothing to do with believing or not believing in paranormal events as objective reality. It is about being open to evidence, no matter where that evidence points to.

Originally posted by Aliensun
Just what do you skeptics believe?

Evidence.

Originally posted by AliensunWhat do you have that justifies your always failed arguments trying to prove a negative?

No one is trying to prove a negative.

Originally posted by Aliensun
The Earth is no longer flat, and it is not alone.

Historical fallacies do not make for a cogent argument.

Strawman after strawman you construct....and please define a "historical fallacy."

Can't you skeptics ever tackle the kernal issue? Rather than doing piecemeal deconstruction work as you did, try going down my list (piecemeal) of what you would or woudn't allow about the whole UFO abductee situation.

Don't you ever doubt your infallibility of believing that these things cannot exist and cannot be happening when any number of people will tell you in a sincere and quiet manner that they have experienced these things?

Since writing the above, I was reading George Filer's excellent email newsletter and was struck again by the immense amount of genuine work being done to supply you and others with the best evidence independent researchers can assemble. When debunkers have some concrete evidence of their own to deny UFOs, they can have coferences also. Until then, the game is believers 1, debunkers zip.

From "Filer's Files" 3/2/2011: "There were twenty great speakers at the Radisson Fort McDowell Resort; host of the 20th annual International UFO Congress by Open Minds Productions, February 22 to 27, 2011. Investigative journalist Leslie Kean had one of the largest presentation crowds of the conference -- presented stories from her text, "UFOs: Generals, Pilots and Government Officials Go On the Record." During Kean's presentation at the conference Saturday, she drew gasps from the when she displayed a yet-unreleased photograph of an alleged UFO from the Chilean government."

when any number of people will tell you in a sincere and quiet manner that they have experienced these things?

Well that is great and all but if I am supposed to believe aliens are coming to Earth and stealing people I am going to need MUCH better evidence than "sincere" and "quiet" people telling me it happened.

Originally posted by Aliensun
Strawman after strawman you construct....and please define a "historical fallacy."

This would be a historical fallacy...

Originally posted by Aliensun
The Earth is no longer flat, and it is not alone.

The implication that because a certain belief in the past was proven wrong that modern heretical beliefs are somehow valid.

Originally posted by Aliensun
Can't you skeptics ever tackle the kernal issue? Rather than doing piecemeal deconstruction work as you did, try going down my list (piecemeal) of what you would or woudn't allow about the whole UFO abductee situation.

Look at the kernel but don't look at the kernel. Which is it?

There is no big picture if the evidence it is built on is lacking. Science works by looking at the evidence not a big picture of supposition.

Originally posted by Aliensun
Don't you ever doubt your infallibility of believing that these things cannot exist and cannot be happening

We build our opinion on evidence not a belief in infallibility. If the evidence demands we accept that aliens are abducting people, than we must do so. And, as of now, the evidence does not. The only people claiming infallibility are the abductionist; their attitude is one of evidence be damned.

Originally posted by Aliensun
... when any number of people will tell you in a sincere and quiet manner that they have experienced these things?

Sincerity is not the same as evidence. You may have had an experience and far be it from me to say otherwise; in fact, I don't doubt most abductees are being sincere and honest. But that does not equate to an objective reality.

As for being quiet -- the tone of your posts is anything but quiet.

Originally posted by Aliensun Until then, the game is believers 1, debunkers zip.

I'm not really sure what reality you are living in. If you think that is really the score of "the game", then why is alien abduction relegated to the fringe?

REVELATIONS 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

The above verse is of course modern interpretation of ancient language that describes a creature or beast having the "power to give life unto the image of the beast". A more modern interpretation of this could be that the "image of the beast" could be referring to "Hybrid human clones of Satan". This of course brings us to the Alien Abduction UFO cases that are widely documented worldwide. Almost all of the Alien Abduction cases have a common theme where Grey aliens abduct human beings, take them up to space ships, harvest sperm or eggs, then return them to Earth. The Beast that is mentioned in the book of Revelations is of course the "2nd Beast" which I think could be the Grey aliens. The "1st Beast" the one that was wounded by the sword but survived could be Satan. Because Satan did in fact lose the war in Heaven and was cast out. And how do you lose a cosmic war in Heaven? Most likely he got his ass handed to him in a fierce sword fight by the Archangel Michael.

Here is another verse in the book of Daniel which I think also speaks of Alien Hybrids in ancient language which was translated into Old English.

Daniel 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Notice that it says "they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men". A more modern interpretation of this could be that the verse tries to describe in ancient language what we know today as genetic engineering where DNA can be mixed together to create a hybrid species. Today, we know that this is no longer science fiction. We now know that there are animals that have been grown with human DNA and that cloning animals is already possible.

I believe that if you widen your spectrum of perception and not rely on traditional programming on how to think and behave around a certain subject, you will be able to perceive that it is in fact possible for Satan to be using these types of resources to create an army of loyal alien reptilian human hybrid workers who can easily blend in amongst human beings to carry out his agenda. You may also ask "Why would Satan need to do this?" Remember when the Creator send his son to this mortal realm? He too needed a body for his Son's Soul to be born into. Satan would also need to do the same to create bodies for his disembodied legions of Fallen Angels who fell with him from Heaven.

Satan's deception is so deep that the mortal man's shallow mind cannot perceive it even though he is surrounded by it. Throughout the ages, It would be logical to expect that someone as deceptive and powerful as Satan in this mortal realm, would have already began sowing the seeds of his deception into our consciousness to shape and form our reality as we evolve and our consciousness matures. So rather than waiting until man's consciousness matures and attempting to deceive it when it is less likely to be deceived, Satan began deceiving mankind when his consciousness was still similar in maturity to that of a 5 year old's when we did not yet understand the laws of physics and the cosmos were still just bright dots in the night skies.

Even after you read this, you will still find it difficult to unlock your minds from Satan's deception because he has already pre-empted modern man with lies and knowledge that makes it very difficult for you to believe it. The enormity of the corruption of man's consciousness by Satan is unimaginable only to those who have fallen under his spell of deception. People will find it very difficult to believe that it is possible. He is so good at what he does that people no longer even believe that he exists.

reply to post by WhizPhiz

I was taken many years ago. I was sleeping in my living room on the sofa after a night of drinking with my friends. It felt like I was dreaming and I could see my body floating upwards, as it went through the ceiling, my consciousness began to re-merge with my body. I could feel the sensation that I was being floated upwards even as I observed from outside my body in 3rd person view. Then my body flew up and over my town all the way out to the bay. I could see downwards and recognized where I was as I flew out over the bay. Then I went up higher and that's when I can't remember. When I awoke, it was already morning at around 6AM.

A few years later, I was out on a boat with friends fishing when we saw something that looked like an orange and yellow colored sphere or orb about the size of an oversized beach ball come out of the water, skim across with wake forming around it and reflection of the light clearly visible on the waves near it. This sphere or orb moved slowly across the bow of our boat and later dove back down into the sea.

At the time, I was not yet clued into the whole UFO abduction and alien subject phenomena. Many years went by and one night while driving down from Seattle on I-5 to Portland, Oregon I accidentally tuned into the Art Bell Coast to Coast radio show. From there, I began to use the internet to research and later would learn that I may have been abducted or may have had an Out-Of-Body experience as many call it.

Today though, I know that these are the works of Satan and his Fallen Angels. I am certain of this and I know it to be so because the Creator has revealed to me how Satan works and the sophistication of his deception.

Back in the old days of medieval period, it would have been very easy for Satan to dazzle the minds of men back then and deceive them with whatever deception he wanted to use. Today though, since mankind's consciousness has matured and is now at a level that involves high technology and advanced sciences, Satan will most likely need to increase the level of sophistication of his deception.

Take care.

reply to post by phfaty

Today though, I know that these are the works of Satan and his Fallen Angels. I am certain of this and I know it to be so because the Creator has revealed to me how Satan works and the sophistication of his deception.

The creator revealed it to you huh? Your case of floating through the ceiling has clear indicators of an alien abduction. What did the creator tell you exactly?

reply to post by WingedBull

But what did he base those numbers on?

It would obviously be based in on the percentage of the surveys with answers that strongly indicated they were abductees. I just personally feel it's probably close to 2 or 3 percent, there are no solid numbers, this whole topic is far from solid as it is.

So which is it? It is reliable or not? It seems like you are equivocating.

It is not reliable in the sense the majority of information acquired from abductees should be trusted, but is is some what reliable in the sense that a portion of what they say is potentially factual. We can also use certain techniques which increase the reliability of the information by a considerable degree. Furthermore, the information is compared with the body of abduction accounts to see what part of might have truth. It clear some people will not believe anything with dead set proof, and that's completely fine. I'm not saying there's any problem with that, even I'm not 100% sure alien abduction is real. But I am about 90% sure. This thread was simply an attempt to convey what I've learned about abduction, not as an attempt to provide absolute proof of abduction, as you seem to think.

Originally posted by WhizPhiz
reply to post by phfaty

 

The creator revealed it to you huh? Your case of floating through the ceiling has clear indicators of an alien abduction. What did the creator tell you exactly?

Clear indication of alien abduction in your mind. But your mind is narrow, too focused on what Jacobs and his friends are telling you. I'm skeptical of the ETH and everything paranormal but I'm open to the possibility. Right now though, the lack of scientific evidence suggests that the abduction experience it's an entirely psychological phenomenon. But this can change. This is what's so great about science - it evolves in the face of new scientific evidence and theories that no longer fit are tossed out the window.

reply to post by cripmeister

Clear indication of alien abduction in your mind. But your mind is narrow, too focused on what Jacobs and his friends are telling you.

The indications of an abduction have nothing to do with what "Jacobs has told me". It has to with the way the person describes their feeling of floating and their mind leaving their body. I've heard this described in so many abduction cases, as the abductee gets pulled up into the UFO they describe a sensation akin to their mind floating up and leaving their body. Vague conscious memories of this event are usually described in a very similar fashion as the person above. I don't think Jacobs even mentions this in his book, maybe briefly. I started to notice this after I read Taken, and I would recall accounts from The Threat describing the same thing.

Right now though, the lack of scientific evidence suggests that the abduction experience it's an entirely psychological phenomenon.

I agree. In scientific terms, there is obviously a lot more evidence required before people will believe any of this. My intention was far from trying to create some sort of conclusive analysis changing scientific beliefs. In fact, I wrote this thread for abductees more than anyone else, and I've already received several PM's thanking me. So I achieved what I set out to do, and that wasn't to prove to people like you this is real. I would need to dedicate weeks upon weeks to such a thread, and even then it's doubtful you'd do anything but claim evidence is lacking.

Originally posted by WhizPhiz
reply to post by cripmeister

 

I agree. In scientific terms, there is obviously a lot more evidence required before people will believe any of this. My intention was far from trying to create some sort of conclusive analysis changing scientific beliefs. In fact, I wrote this thread for abductees more than anyone else, and I've already received several PM's thanking me. So I achieved what I set out to do, and that wasn't to prove to people like you this is real. I would need to dedicate weeks upon weeks to such a thread, and even then it's doubtful you'd do anything but claim evidence is lacking.

While I applaud your effort, because your OP is very well presented, what you're doing is just reproducing popular belief of what an abduction experience is like This belief has its origin in hypnotic regression which we know is unreliable. The entire thing should be tossed but sadly it's become ingrained in peoples imagination. It has taken on a life of it's own - it has become a meme.

reply to post by cripmeister

This belief has its origin in hypnotic regression which we know is unreliable.

Once again, I would like to point out that much of this information comes from conscious memories (such as those from Taken and also ATS abduction reports). There are many ways to research abductions, hypnotic regression is but one method. If you feel such accounts to be completely invalid, just ignore them. I simply don't feel like they should be ignored, and that they can provide clearer insight into an abduction event. Many abductees have fragment memories and flashbacks, and I understand that using hypnosis to retrieve memories is very powerful, and has been used many times to solve crimes where people can only remember all the details in such a state of mind.

It has taken on a life of it's own - it has become a meme.

So why is it then that in the 5 or so years I've spent lurking or posting on ATS, I didn't know even half of these things I describe in this report? In fact, I think this thread is probably the most informational report about abductions that has ever been posted on ATS. I find it highly unlikely that so many of these people who often want to remain anonymous would have studied abductions to the degree required for them to all be reporting so many synchronicities.

What would the average person say if you asked them they think an abduction is like? The best result you will get is "little grey guys with big black eyes", because they ARE a meme, but one might also argue they are so common because they are indeed real. However, I doubt you will commonly here people say "they're making me nurture an alien baby", or "they're sticking some sort of weird sack inside me", or "I suddenly fell asleep". You probably wouldn't even hear "I'm floating through the wall" very often. Some one who hasn't been abducted is likely to say "the aliens dragged me out of bed". But you know they're lying because most solid accounts usually involve floating, and also that aliens wouldn't waste energy to physically drag a person out of a bed.

Originally posted by WhizPhiz

So why is it then that in the 5 or so years I've spent lurking or posting on ATS, I didn't know even half of these things I describe in this report?

You never watched the X-Files?