Derren Brown Messiah / How to convert an Atheist into a Christian by touch a must watch for all ATS

reply to post by johngtr


I hadnt watched that far but I forwarded it & yes I see exactly what your saying, there is a distinct glow but that could be a number of things and the first i think of is to get the viewer glued to what he is saying or perhaps a camera mishap, the one thing I remind myself everytime I watch Derren is that everything is a trick of the mind, nothin is ever real or what it seems. Either that or Derren Brown is "The One", but remember the title of the show "Messiah", is that what he wants you to think??

reply to post by DarthPhobos


Yes i do agree with you on most part of that, thank you for replying again and for watching what i was on about.

on a slightly different subject, has anybody put up a link for or have the link for Derren Brown, where he convinces the people he has " Subliminal messaged?, Thought/Behaviour Altered? " the public he had been talking to at seminars, to steal the money from the cash carrying security van? that is one freaky episode but excellent viewing.

Many thanks

EDIT - sorry if i wasted anybodys time , but i found the link also on C4od, but this link may only be watched by UK viewers

www.youtube.com...

Very interesting documentary. It is true that people are capable of believing anything however to simply state that everyone who claims to have a spiritual or psychic experience as being fraud is very fallacious. It's better to remain skeptical until such a point that you have enough evidence to move forward with understanding that there is more the physical reality then just atoms and ignorance.

Interesting film, though I've always taken the whole "conversion experience" thing with a grain of salt -- it's big among the Reformed Theology crowd, because it was seen as the difference between "salvation faith" versus "temporary faith", but for other Protestants and Catholics, not so much.

Here's a good analysis of the video from the Randi forums: forums.randi.org...

My own personal observations:

1) Although in the UK, an assumption might be made that Curt Nordheilm is a known person, he's not, over here. I've never heard of him, and it appears that he's written one book, about 20 years ago, and that's about the only notable thing about him. For more credibility, a well known person should have been used -- Benny Hinn being the obvious choice

2) I was immediately a little suspect at the audience, as they all appeared to be of similar demographic -- age being the most obvious, but they all looked like university students, which says something about their background and social status

3) Most importantly, it's a bit disingenuous, because although it is implied that Nordheilm endorsed Brown, he was, in fact, the only one of the five "experts" who did not. I could not see your version of the video, but in the YouTube version, it cuts off with Brown's voiceover saying that the evangelist requested another meeting, but, in looking for the result of that meeting elsewhere, I see that Brown refused it.

Heard it all before anyway. Nothing anyone can say or do that will take away what Christ has done. What gets me is you would think just being on line would be enough to be able to view the vid. FREEDOM!!!!!

Originally posted by randyvs
Heard it all before anyway. Nothing anyone can say or do that will take away what Christ has done. What gets me is you would think just being on line would be enough to be able to view the vid. FREEDOM!!!!!

Probably there will always be some individuals like you, where the pre-determined answer is fixed and rigid and everything else in life can be adjusted to fit it.

But just so you don't have to feel alone. I've met hard-core commies and neo-nazis with similar 'I'm right' mindsets, but ofcourse with different 'absolutes'.

reply to post by adjensen

2) I was immediately a little suspect at the audience, as they all appeared to be of similar demographic -- age being the most obvious, but they all looked like university students, which says something about their background and social status

So what does it say ? That people who are of a similar age and attire are more likely to respond to a newspaper ad offering them a way to find god ?

Hm, why so suspect ? It's noteworthy for example that the Mormon church selects its' missionaries from candidates of a similar age what are we to read into this ?

It is interesting to note that in the UK right now xtians target young people and stalk them in parks etc in the evenings. Are you suggesting that the young hormonally imbalanced are less critical and more credulous ?

3) Most importantly, it's a bit disingenuous, because although it is implied that Nordheilm endorsed Brown, he was, in fact, the only one of the five "experts" who did not. I could not see your version of the video, but in the YouTube version, it cuts off with Brown's voiceover saying that the evangelist requested another meeting, but, in looking for the result of that meeting elsewhere, I see that Brown refused it.

What is very obvious is that Nordhelim was very scared, did he at any time tell the audience that he didn't think their experience was the "holy spirit " ? Nope, after all how could he they were carbon copies of members of any church you would bump into on any given Sunday.

Remember, Brown made it quite clear that should Nordheilm think there was trickery he would immediately tell him.

You may or may not have noticed that Brown had previously stopped the process to allow the less credulous or less interested to leave the remnant being open to persuasion exactly how many churches operate.

These people were looking for something and Brown gave it to them no different to the godman jesus, or Sathya Sai Baba to my mind it gives us a glimps of the lies that christians are telling themselves.

Originally posted by randyvs
Heard it all before anyway. Nothing anyone can say or do that will take away what Christ has done. FREEDOM!!!!!

Are you in anyway related to Christopher Walken by any chance ? Your thoughts don't appear to be connected to each other in such a way that others can derive any clear meaning from them.

Originally posted by The Djin
reply to post by adjensen

 

2) I was immediately a little suspect at the audience, as they all appeared to be of similar demographic -- age being the most obvious, but they all looked like university students, which says something about their background and social status

So what does it say ? That people who are of a similar age and attire are more likely to respond to a newspaper ad offering them a way to find god ?

No, just that they would be more likely to exhibit "groupthink", which is what is being demonstrated. I suspect that the demonstration would be less effective if it was a random sampling of people of all ages and backgrounds.

What is very obvious is that Nordhelim was very scared, did he at any time tell the audience that he didn't think their experience was the "holy spirit " ? Nope, after all how could he they were carbon copies of members of any church you would bump into on any given Sunday.

Well, we're seeing an edited version of Nordhelim's comments, and it doesn't sound like he was given the opportunity to question Brown about the event. Are you referring to the members of the group seen in the second YouTube video (sorry, that's the only one that I can watch)? Because, no, they are pretty much the exact opposite of the members of a typical US church.

As for being scared, what reason would Nordhelim have had for it, particularly if he thought that this fellow could really use the Holy Spirit to convert people? The fact that he left before the second part of the experience is rather suspicious, as a matter of fact -- why not stick around to see what it's all about?

Remember, Brown made it quite clear that should Nordheilm think there was trickery he would immediately tell him.

Maybe I misheard, but I don't think that's what he said -- I believe that he said that IF someone had asked him if it was a trick, that he would have admitted that it was. And we have no way of knowing whether that would have come up in the meeting between the two, because Brown declined to talk to him again.

Pure speculation because, again, these are edited segments which may or may not be being shown in a proper order, but the fact that Nordhelim did not "endorse" Brown, the fact that Nordhelim did not stick around for the second part of Brown's exhibition, and the fact that Brown refused to meet with Nordhelim after that happened makes me think it likely that Nordhelim did not believe that there was anything religious going on.

Of course, that doesn't play as well as the four other "experts", so they settle on implying that Nordhelim bought into it, whether he did or didn't.

I don't discount the behaviours exhibited by the "subjects" -- he clearly makes a point about groupthink and psychological manipulation, but, like I said, that whole "Benny Hinn" kind of thing represents a small subset of Christian believers.

The one that impressed me the most was the subversive / subliminal advertising one, which he tested on two market graphic designers and 'predicted' what they would draw as a logo for a company after arriving to meet him in a taxi.

They didn't realise that Derren had brilliantly set up little clues en route, to persuade those guys into a way of thinking. Like symbolic suggestions.

Very clever. I think Derren is a genius and brilliant for showing just how easily we can be persuaded. Just look at the lay out of supermarkets and the subliminal adverts and colour schemes and bargain bucket locations etc.

reply to post by mr-lizard

The one that impressed me the most was the subversive / subliminal advertising one, which he tested on two market graphic designers and 'predicted' what they would draw as a logo for a company after arriving to meet him in a taxi.

Have to agree that one impressed me the most, it just goes to show how we are being manipulated on a subconscious level every minute of the day.

It's kind of scary when we dump children on a rug of the TV to babysit at the most crucial times of their lives, no wonder the world is going mad.

reply to post by adjensen


Have to agree to disagree for now as time is running short and going back and fore the vid is not practical until tomorrow.

reply to post by The Djin


I've seen the video in question before, very interesting stuff. We humans are easily deceived and manipulated which is why I tend to err on the side of skepticism. Even when I've had seemingly paranormal experiences in the past I try to remain skeptical because of human perception being so flawed and influenced by emotion.

Hopefully you get the embed to work so others can see this piece of footage

Derren Brown has also done great work debunking astrology and mediums as well, between James Randi, Penn and Teller and Derren Brown pseudoscience has its work cut out.

reply to post by The Djin


The link doesnt work becasue you didnt say your prayers last night.

reply to post by The Djin

It is interesting to note that in the UK right now xtians target young people and stalk them in parks etc in the evenings

Ha ha! This happened to me just last weekend in Brisbane's Botanic Gardens
It also happened in the same park a year or so ago, the last time I visited. Real freak.
And they won't leave the bench you're at until you do

Originally posted by Planet teleX
reply to post by The Djin

 

It is interesting to note that in the UK right now xtians target young people and stalk them in parks etc in the evenings

Ha ha! This happened to me just last weekend in Brisbane's Botanic Gardens

It also happened in the same park a year or so ago, the last time I visited. Real freak.
And they won't leave the bench you're at until you do

I find the best way to get rid of them in situations like this is simply to pull out my penis and just sit there talking to them, they soon shift.

PS Make sure there's no kids about.

PPS Nor George Michael

reply to post by Titen-Sxull

Hopefully you get the embed to work so others can see this piece of footage

Trying but still no joy as yet which is a shame as it's a fantastic series will try again later

Keep in mind that Brown is a magician performing on a TV show. How much of his show is real versus staged? Is there even any way to tell which is which? All kinds of magic tricks involve stooges and confederates in the audience ("now, sir, we've never met before, is that correct?"), so I wouldn't be surprised if a few of these subjects were planted - at least the first couple of people, to give the rest an idea of what to expect.

Originally posted by enleve
Keep in mind that Brown is a magician performing on a TV show. How much of his show is real versus staged? Is there even any way to tell which is which? All kinds of magic tricks involve stooges and confederates in the audience ("now, sir, we've never met before, is that correct?"), so I wouldn't be surprised if a few of these subjects were planted - at least the first couple of people, to give the rest an idea of what to expect.

Not being able to see the video myself either, I can only refer to text-information on Brown.

I don't think, that the main-point is, if anything is staged. Brown admits to using 'manipulative' tricks to achieve certain results, and it seems to function.

In my time as an amateur 'field researcher' in comparative religion, I've participated in quite a few religions, sects, cults etc learning their 'theory' and joining in their practises. At both levels there exists a definite building-up of a setting, which will lead to the expected experience amongst the participants.

Especially at the 'practical' level (rituals, spiritual exercises, whatever) this is clearly manifested. Atmosphere, arrangement of peoples' mindsets to 'open' in certain directions and often a big circus around it all with go-go dancers *, fireworks and holy music.

If there ever was such a thing as true para/super-natural powers involved in this (I'm not an atheist), it's completely lost in the wrappings or has been twisted into a travesty of the real thing.

You can even do this cynically, well knowing, that you (as the ringmaster) don't possess or have contact with higher powers. It'll function anyway.

Isn't that what a lot of 'religion' is about? Selling dreams and fantasies to people. Brown demonstrates this is possible.


* For some americans: This is a socalled humour, a special phenomenon very popular in Europe.

Derran Brown Rocks!!

I remember seeing him do a trick at race track, a horse or greyhound race, I can't remember.

anyway, he placed a bet and the horse/dog lost, which he wanted. He took the loosing ticket to the woman at the kiosk and said to her, " I have the winning ticket, pay up" or something like that. She looked a the ticket, confused and then paid him the money as if it had won!

Amazing


edit...he gave the money back