Man's Genetic voyage. Fact, Speculation and Theories...

Hello again.

While writing my third installment of Origins of Atlantis/Lemuria Myths Part-1 and Part-2 the question of Modern mans DNA kept creeping in. It's hard to explore ancient mans journey across the planet in his drive out of Africa without discussing the latest DNA evidence. It appears that we as modern man are genetically more complicated and diverse than first thought. Before we begin let me make this abundantly clear right off that bat.

This is not an attempt at proving any sort of racial superiority through Eugenics etc. I'm pretty darned sure that by the time some finish reading this they'll have their noses bent out of place. So be it. I'm going to take a neutral stance and just provide theory and conjecture supported by both FACTS and Circumstantial evidence. You decide for yourselves.

In other words if you come looking for a fight about racial superiority you've come to the wrong shop my brother...


Let's begin. All our troubles started with this guy...


[align=center]Homo sapien
[wise man or knowing man][/align]
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And his wife.
We will call her Eve.

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Now supposedly as the story goes they and their offspring ventured out of Africa at or about 200,000 BC and with successive generations moved out across the globe all the way to South America at or around 30,000 to 15,000 BC. How do we know? Well apparently every Man, Woman and Child alive today have squirreled away in their genetic makeup their genes...

I personally have no argument against that. But the question arises that if we are all his descendants then why don't we all look African? This isn't a simple question. There are many variables. Such as Genetic isolation after migration, Environmental and Nutritional factors ad infinitum...

When I was in school we learned that modern man came out of Africa then went into Europe and Competed with Neanderthal for food and resource. Then developed the Clovis point. Neanderthal being slow, dumb and clumsy it was an easy victory and they Died out.

End of story!

Can we go home now?

NO!

Sit down!

Now with the advancements of Genetic mapping and DNA lineage tracing etc. We now know that Modern man in almost every part of the world has Neanderthal DNA. Notice how I said "Almost"? Well as it turns out a large percentage of "Africans" do not show Neanderthal DNA. I found that very interesting and sent me on a journey into how this could have been afflicting modern man with regards to Genetic Abnormalities

Neanderthal DNA Lives On in Modern Humans

Researchers compared the Neanderthal genome with the genomes of five living people: one San from southern Africa, one Yoruba from West Africa, one Papua New Guinean, one Han Chinese and one French person. Scientists discovered that 1% to 4% of the latter three DNA samples is shared with Neanderthals — proof that Neanderthals and early modern humans interbred.

The absence of Neanderthal DNA in the genomes of the two present-day Africans indicates that interbreeding occurred after some root population of early modern humans left Africa but before the species evolved into distinct groups in Europe and Asia.

I've always wondered how is it if we all came out of Africa why did we all end up looking different.---- So now we know that there is a bit of Neanderthal and possibly others in all of us and that it may show up every so often in various ways. [ I'll be elaborating on that possible scenario a bit later ]

First I think we need to do away with once and for all the notion that Neanderthal was simply an apish brute. This apparently has been carried over from the Early days of Darwinism. It seems that many in the academic European circles were trying to find the "Missing Link" and unfairly Neanderthal was shoe horned into that possible link. He has often been portrayed as a dumb lumbering oaf. Looking at the following misrepresentation I certainly wouldn't want to call him my kin...
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Over time his appearance has changed a bit. To be honest the next representation of Neanderthal looks less apish. Which is a good thing. I think we as modern man need to reevaluate our idea of him and others in our possible extend "Hominid Family" and realize that they were conceivably more human than we may have first thought. As a matter of fact I can see a lot of My uncle in him not to mention our local pizza guy...Mario?

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Neanderthal and [soon to be discussed] other pre-homo-sapiens were not "Primitive Humans" IMHO. They supposedly left Africa anywhere from between 400,000 to 1,000,000 BC that's about 200,000 to 800,000 or more years earlier than "Modern man" had. They migrated into regions we hadn't ventured yet at least not for another few hundred thousand years later. They dealt with, survived and flourished in those tough environments. They went toe to toe with the Mega-fauna in their locations and dealt with all the other nasty things life could throw at them during their lives. They were some seriously tough SOBs!

Neanderthal vs. Homosapien

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Interesting perspective... How strong would a Neanderthal be compared to a human

"Try these physical characteristics on for size:

• For starters, massive, broad shoulders are indicated by a scapular breadth that is about 8% larger than their modern human contemporaries. (Neanderthals and anatomically modern humans did live side by side for several millennia.)

• Muscle attachments for the pecs were enormous, up to twice the size of today’s average.

• Neanderthals had shorter, wider humeri (upper arms), which combined with the shoulders, suggests substantial rotator cuff muscularity. And, get this; the bones in their forearms were actually bowed from muscles that must have powered a grip that could crush stone.

• All of this upper body musculature was anchored on a solid foundation of massive quads that specialized in explosive power and side-to-side movement."

"This would have made Neanderthal fingers and thumbs upwards of twice the strength of modern humans" Lumely-Woodyear 1973;

"Thus Neanderthals were probably better at throwing (Debenath and Tournepiche 1992) than their modern contemporaries"

Who were our other DNA contributors after we left Africa? Well let me introduce you to two of the recently discovered contributors. The first one you already know...

Neanderthals

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Neanderthal
The first proto-Neanderthal traits appeared in Europe as early as 600,000–350,000 years ago.[2] Proto-Neanderthal traits are occasionally grouped to another phenetic 'species', Homo heidelbergensis, or a migrant form, Homo rhodesiensis. By 130,000 years ago, complete Neanderthal characteristics had appeared. These characteristics then disappeared in Asia by 50,000 years ago and in Europe by about 30,000 years ago, with no further individuals having enough Neanderthal morphological traits to be considered as part of Homo neanderthalensis

Here is a recent article on Neanderthal DNA. Apparently their skin color as well had as vast of variations as modern man. It does point however that the evidence so far indicate that both Modern man and Neanderthal came to these variations independently. For me the Verdict is still out on that one.
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Ancient DNA Reveals That Some Neanderthals Were Redheads
Ancient DNA suggests that at least some Neanderthals had red hair and pale skin. Neanderthals' pigmentation may even have been as varied as that of modern humans, and that at least 1 percent of Neanderthals were likely redheads. (Credit: 'Illustration by Knut Finstermeier; Neanderthal reconstruction by the Reiss-Engelhorn-Museum Mannheim')

Denisovans

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Denisova hominin
The mtDNA of the Denisova hominin is distinct from the mtDNAs of Neanderthals and modern humans.[3] In December 2010, an international team of scientists determined the sequence from the nuclear genome of this group (known as the Denisovans) from this finger bone. According to their analysis, this group shares a common origin with the Neanderthals and interbred with the ancestors of modern Melanesians

So we now know that Neanderthal had contributed and now we find that Denisovans also had a hand in our makeup. The Denisovans are interesting to say the least. They are cousins of Neanderthal yet were distinct. We see their contributions with the Melanesians...

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Melanesia

Melanesia is a subregion of Oceania extending from the western end of the Pacific Ocean to the Arafura Sea, and eastward to Fiji. The region comprises most of the islands immediately north and northeast of Australia. The name Melanesia (from Greek: µ??a? black; ??s??, islands) was first used by Jules Dumont d'Urville in 1832 to denote an ethnic and geographical grouping of islands distinct from Polynesia and Micronesia.....

There was probably a long period of interaction that resulted in many complex changes in genetics, languages, and culture. It is possible that from this area a very small group of people (speaking an Austronesian language) departed to the east to become the forebears of the Polynesian people. This finding is, however, contradicted by a study published by Temple University finding that Polynesians and Micronesians have little genetic relation to Melanesians; instead, they found significant distinctions between groups living within the Melanesian islands.[5] Genome scans show Polynesians have little genetic relationship to Melanesians.[6]

Now what about some of the other interesting hominids? Well so far we haven't found any connections and we may not. However What if we suppose they had contributed. This makes for some very interesting speculation and would solve many mysteries in Modern mans journey.

Homo erectus pekinensis
Peking Man

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Homo erectus pekinensis
Franz Weidenreich considered Peking Man as a human ancestor and specifically an ancestor of the Chinese people,[13] as seen in his original multiregional model of human evolution in 1946.[14] Chinese writings on human evolution in 1950 generally considered evidence insufficient to determine whether Peking Man was ancestral to modern humans. One view was that Peking Man in some ways resembled modern Europeans more than modern Asians.[15] However, this debate of the origin has sometimes become complicated by issues of Chinese nationalism.[16] By 1952, however, Peking Man had been considered by some to be a direct ancestor of modern humans.[17] Some paleontologists have noted a perceived continuity in skeletal remains.[18]

OK so Peking mans history, possible contribution and genetic lineage is still unknown. Would it be too far off the mark to hypothesis that he may have bestowed his genes to the pot as well? There are many variation in regards to appearance and height etc. I see Peking man as more Neanderthal looking than primitive ape-man.

Next?

Flores Man
- Hobbit -

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Homo floresiensis
("Flores Man", nicknamed "hobbit") is a possible species, now extinct, in the genus Homo. The remains were discovered in 2004 on the island of Flores in Indonesia. Partial skeletons of nine individuals have been recovered, including one complete cranium (skull).[1][2] These remains have been the subject of intense research to determine whether they represent a species distinct from modern humans, and the progress of this scientific controversy has been closely followed by the news media at large. This hominin is remarkable for its small body and brain and for its survival until relatively recent times (possibly as recently as 12,000 years ago).[3] Recovered alongside the skeletal remains were stone tools from archaeological horizons ranging from 94,000 to 13,000 years ago.

Now what do we make of this guy? When I first read about him. I couldn't help but think about Pygmies. Now with supposedly everybody and their brothers heading "Out of Africa" did this guys family head back into Africa? There seems to be some rather interesting circumstantial evidence. It's not hard to imagine that some of his DNA had influenced physical characteristics in the region. South East Asians on the whole are relatively shorter than those from other locations on the planet. Interesting to note that Pygmies also show in South America. Ancient prehistoric connection or just a result of nutrition and environmental adaptations?

Pygmy peoples

Genetically, the western Mbenga pygmies are extremely divergent from all other human populations, suggesting they have an ancient indigenous lineage. They represent the most ancient divergence right after that of Khoisan's. The overall genetic picture suggests that the original Mbenga population, possessing Y-chromosome haplogroup B and mtDNA haplogroup L1, was slightly influenced by gene flow from Bantus. The closest relatives of eastern Mbuti pygmies appear to be the Hadzabe, who live in the savannas east of the forest and were quite short in stature, before heavy recent intermarriage with their taller neighbors.

There are also pygmies in Australia, Thailand, Malaysia,[3] Indonesia, the Philippines, Papua New Guinea, and Brazil.

Dawn of Modern-mans journey

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So what does the genetic record show us? Well apparently set before "Modern-man aka Homo-Sapiens" there were older lines of humanoids that preceded our exodus out of Africa. These older closely human genetic lines were better suited IMHO for their environments. Modern mans great migration wasn't accomplished in one or two generations. I think Modern Academia should stop being "Marveled" at the speed and distances modern man spread. I think it went more along the lines of interbreeding with the already in place older lines.

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This could be why there is such a diverse spectrum in eye and hair color, not to mention physical build, appearance and height among modern humans. How about this for a possible scenario. As modern man left Africa in his great migration he swapped DNA with those potentially older lines. Generation after generation of breeding amongst themselves as the "Newer lines" of nomadic herdsmen traversed back and forth across the great Eurasian continent. Maybe why the Australian Aboriginals and others in the region look very "Africanized" Is it possible that a second or third exodus out of Africa such as Coastal Migration occurred that bypassed a mixture of some of the more Northern older lineages? I think so.

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DNA confirms coastal trek to Australia

DNA evidence linking Indian tribes to Australian Aboriginal people supports the theory humans arrived in Australia from Africa via a southern coastal route through India, say researchers. The research, lead by Dr Raghavendra Rao from the Anthropological Survey of India, is published in the current edition of BMC Evolutionary Biology.

One theory is that modern humans arrived in Australia via an inland route through central Asia but Rao says most scientists believe modern humans arrived via the coast of South Asia. Skeletal remains, dating back between 40-60,000 years from Lake Mungo in New South Wales, also support the theory that modern human arrived in Australia at least as far back as this, he says.

In the end what does it matter? We are all now "Modern Humans" Well for me [and I could be wrong in my assumptions I'm not a geneticist] but it answers some basic fundamental questions in my mind as to why we are so diverse in appearance as a race. Is it so hard to believe that as we migrated across the globe that as we went we picked up genes from those older lines?

Animation showing possible DNA mixture

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Lastly.....

Why are they no longer with us?

A few years back I read a book called Guns, Germs, and Steel. Written by Jared Diamond.
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In his book he described in one section what happened in the "New World" as Europeans moved across the globe bringing with them their technology and more importantly their Germs. Those Germs were infinitely more destructive than their steel or gunpowder. Huge swaths of Native Americans North, South and Central were wiped out because of them. Only those that were genetically resilient enough survived. Was this simply history repeating itself? One could imagine that during this trek out of Africa a hundred thousand years previously Homo Sapien not only picked up the older genetic material as he migrated but also brought with him Germs that the other older lines were not prepared to deal with and they were wiped out? Only those who had already breed with Homo Sapien survived the possible great die off.

Guns, Germs and Steel Part 1 of 18

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Of course this isn't the end of the story. Modern man has been migrating all across the globe and we are now more than ever intertwined and most if not all of us are all related closer now than we were back when we first moved out across the globe. It truly was a remarkable journey. Hopefully I have not offended too many people. I know the topic of origins and race are very touchy topics with some. This wasn't intended to offend anybody but rather to put forth another possible scenario of our Human developmental heritage....

As always have a great day..

PEACE

As ever fantastic information.

I have always thought that the human race is a hodgepodge of earlier forebears. This is obvious. It is interesting that you hypothesise Homo Sapiens bastardisation, and looks convincing to me.

Thanks for the effort

reply to post by SLAYER69
Hell Slayer, this is taking the average ATS thread up a few notches. Great layout, images and commentary...I was beginning to think links were all out of fashion.

It's a damn fine job...

I'm putting my flag down right here and now to keep an eye on this...and post a more OT reply later on.

reply to post by SLAYER69


I'm going to add a congratulatory note as well.

I see you included the excellent book/video "Guns, Germs and Steel". Have you seen the "Journey of Man" series of episodes, too?:


Part 1 -

Whoa Slayer you never cease to amaze. And considering the price of admission even more nutritional value. I can sincerely appreciate the amount of work that went into this. From the cogent and thought provoking premise to the feature rich erudite links. Just Wow.

I realize you don't due this for the glory but I feel gypped giving only a single Star:

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I can't even muster a worthy reply I'm in such awe but only to ask and exposed my utter ignorance. I've heard that Human DNA contains something like 7 or 8 potential connection points on the double helix and that only 2 are connected. Any truth to that? (If I've made any sense) Something about untappd potential?

reply to post by SLAYER69


I think this presents so many variables that pertain to variables. without mentioning the ones that biblical scholars might impose on your hypothesis. The one fact that no one can get around is that mankind has amnesia for some reason. What puts this block in our memory of origin? Answer that and I believe you will answer many questions with one push of the broom. Why don't we remember our origins? Or for that matter where are we even going?

You slay me again.. Excellent thread.

I'll be watching this one. Should get heated.

Thanks kinda kurious he deserves these stars. I see much work put into this informative thread and congratz on it being presented so well SLAYER69..
Ss&F
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reply to post by SLAYER69


Great thread as usual Slayer

I agree that it is likely a combination of interbreeding and adapting to new climates that caused the differences sometimes referred to as "racial". We all ended up one massive species of six billion some apes conquering our world... what are the odds? One of my favorite genetic facts, one I've been mentioning here on ATS for years, is the discovery of certain genes that help the Tibetan people thrive at high altitudes. Link

Your threads never cease to impress Slayer Awesome work! Just like that find in Israel could open up another chapter in this debate if proven valid. What are your thoughts on more possible finds of unknown hominids? Especially in light of two mentioned on your thread are very recent finds?

reply to post by spacedonk


It is a topic that has always fascinated me all my life.
It's a hard topic to discuss sometimes with some without causing conflict with long held beliefs

Excellent, well done. Like the premise. While it makes perfect sense to me that the mingling of DNA took place over time, given the circumstances governing migration, I do look forwards to those who may present an alternate take on this given the obvious conflict with biblical theory....

Nice topic and good lay out.

I do grasp the ideas being presented here but there are some huge massive questions I just cannot see any decent answers to no matter how hard I try to figure it out.

It's the conundrum I can't wrap my mind around yet.

They keep mentioning a "missing link", well I'll tell you buddy, there is like a gazillion missing links.

What did medieval era peoples think about Dinosaurs? Exactly, they didn't even know they existed.
Well, what are our dinosaurs? What do we not even know exists yet? Unknown unknowns...

There are some huge revelations we have not even tasted, but I want to taste them, I thirst and hunger for them.

I just wanna know, where the hell did we come from?
I realize we don't have a clue yet.

All of this dna, skeletal, and tools/markings evidence only shows me one thing. We haven't got the slightest clue what we are dealing with here.

This stuff is massively complicated because it is the "equation with infinite variables". Pretty much.

I love the subject but man, we won't ever figure this one out I'm afraid.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by spacedonk

 

It is a topic that has always fascinated me all my life.
It's a hard topic to discuss sometimes with some without causing conflict with long held beliefs

The new ideas that dislodge the old ideas....

They become tomorrow's old ideas that get dislodged by even newer ideas.

That is where we are right now. Don't look down, because we are in quicksand here.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by spacedonk

 

It is a topic that has always fascinated me all my life.
It's a hard topic to discuss sometimes with some without causing conflict with long held beliefs

Couldn't of said it better myself. Finding the truth of our origin should be the number one priority. As technology gets better over the years, we just might be able to crack the secrets of the past and learn how we came into being. $&F

reply to post by muzzleflash


I bypassed the supposed "Missing link" in this thread. I didn't go that far back. If I had then it would have ended up in the "Origins and Creationism forum"

I picked up with the abundant physical evidence we have in genetic and archeological records.

Once again you have a well put together thread that puts many of the other less researched ones to shame.

This is very plausible to me, as why wouldn’t they have interbred as long as they were compatible for doing so. It would definitely explain the many differences in hair and skin, not just in coloring but in some skin being more sensitive, smoother, etc and some hair being thicker, kinkier or curlier.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Very good thread Slayer,you did it again!
Looking forward to part3.Star,flag and

reply to post by Kandinsky



Thank you

I tried taking a different angle. I feel if people are willing to discuss "Aliens" messing with our DNA not write about our DNA journey within the context of archeological and genetic evidence?

reply to post by SLAYER69


As per usual your threads excel in the information contained within and their message.

I will come back later to comment in more detail and or course add to, refute, and or generally discuss.

Thanks for the invite and I look forward to more information flowing.

reply to post by SLAYER69
I think you've made the subject accessible and highlighted how fascinating the human journey has been without getting all mystical or saying aliens did it. Too many people get scared off by the technical lingo in the research and who can blame them?

Others just have a problem with 'science' and think it's all smoke and mirrors to deceive and confuse.

At the heart of it all, serious research is done across the world and they're just looking to make sense of it all and fill in the blanks. As you point out, we've come a long, long way from seeing Neanderthals as dumb knuckle-draggers. We've also come far from seeing ourselves as some kind of pinnacle. Instead, the guys doing the research have had to keep tracking a moving target...

Instead of a single wave of 'Out of Africa' migrations, there's a newer model that suggests multiple waves going in and out of Africa over thousands of years. In this light, Neanderthal and Denisovan genes live within us because they were a part of our ancestry despite geographical locations or distinctions. We aren't a direct lineage reaching back in time to a single ancestral group or population.

Looking at the changes in theories of human origins over the last 10 years shows that they aren't done yet. The next few years could see a sea-change in migration models and include diverse populations from earlier migrations. Dynamic stuff!