Palestine Vs Israel... lets talk.

Ok so in a recent discussion I was privy to there were many folks over the top defending Israels stance towards the Palestinians. So much so that all the violence was justified. I can Google and look up any and all information about this matter but that's not what I am looking for I am looking for opinions ,conventional wisdom, the whys and why nots. As for me I don't have a particular stance towards either side but am more interested in the history and the peoples perception of the history.
Ok so a couple of rules.

1. please, if you are claiming something source it.
2. This is not a hate thread. So do not just spew hate

Thanks in advance
-BC-

Originally posted by BlastedCaddy
Ok so in a recent discussion I was privy to there were many folks over the top defending Israels stance towards the Palestinians. So much so that all the violence was justified. I can Google and look up any and all information about this matter but that's not what I am looking for I am looking for opinions ,conventional wisdom, the whys and why nots. As for me I don't have a particular stance towards either side but am more interested in the history and the peoples perception of the history.

edit on 24-2-2011 by BlastedCaddy because: (no reason given)

If you are really interested in the factual history, then google Israel-Palestinian conflict, view a ton of available documentaries and pages that show atrocities from both sides. Do the work yourself. The opinions of people who have not endured from either side is almost irrelevant unless those opinions are impartial and favors both sides to an extent.

Like most Israeli-Palestinian threads on ATS, this thread will probably turn into another one extreme vs another extreme views with no results.

Reply to post by BlastedCaddy

Golan Heights, Gaza, and the West bank occupation are legal by UN Resolution 242.

When peace is negotiated, the lands will be returned.


The Palestinians keep poking the hornets nest, and keep getting slapped down. If they would chill, they're would get the land back, according to treaties and the UN.

en.wikipedia.org...


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

I have been to Israel. they are very nice people. as for the stealing of land. well every country has/ is doing it so why does Israel get slammed for it?

reply to post by DevilJin

I Know what there is to know on that end. As for dong the work myself i have done that. My interest here is mainly a media based one. The things that were being parroted to me were being defended with such vigor it was spilling over to personal attacks on myself. Of course I was called an anti Semite, but i expected that. It was the discussion that I was involved in that had me doubting myself. So I turn to my fellow ATSers to read what they think.

My opinion is it's a real sh@t show. I am more than positive that both sides have families that don't give a crap about rhetoric and just want best fortheir families. I would say most people want that.

This situation is not understood until you go back to world war one and two. The fall of the ottoman empire brought the first modern jihad movement led by a falling Turkish emperor. The British had colonized much of the region and the battle was over the cannal. Arabs and Brits got a long great and they secured some good oil deals early along with socal. World war 1 ruined Jewish Arab relations.

World war 2 just made things worse. The land division deal after the war was terribly executed. This period directly after the war is where we see a polar opposite with today. The Jews were acting as terrorist. The Molotov cocktail was in vented to drive Palestinians out of their homes and to burn their shops down. It created huge instabilities and even divided the Jewish community. The modern Jews identified with the Zionist movement while more traditional Jews with Samaritans.

Total mess. The united states had begun to separate themselves from Israel during kenedy's term but nixon got us back in. Most likely our obsession with Israel and our dramatic and overinflated Israeli budget most likely has to do with protecting our oil assets. Iraq and Iran never signed the early oil treaties with Britain or Socal so we were worried about our assets.

I really don't know what to think anymore. It's such a mess of backstabbing, mind controlling, political madness there is no answer.

In my opinion Israel gets away with far to much human rights violations. You have to remember Hamas is not a country. They do get voted in democratically because of the mess. It's very hard to hold organized crime groups accountable for crimes unless done individually.

A nation though should have rules they follow if they are to trade with the world openly. Rolling over peoples homes in tanks is never a good idea. Ever. It just makes backlash and sympathy. Who doesn't sympathize with a mom and kid watching a tank roll over their house.

Shoulder fired rockets are terrorists. They don't have a country. If you gave the Palestinian people a country than they should also be held responsible. But their are terrorist nearly everywhere now and it doesn't mean the whole country they come from supports them. They will though when backed in a corner or handed lots of tragedy.

My take is it must be some what of a conspiracy. For people to not realize the cycle of violence or eye for an eye lunacy is just to much of a stretch.

Israel should grow up. Show some restraint. Give Palestine a place in the world. And have the world hold Palestine accountable for it's actions. Until then there is no solution. They can't even afford enough police to arrest the terrorist cells if they want to.

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh


Excuse me, but Resolution 242 states:

"Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict"

Recent conflict being Six-Day war, were Israel occupied the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and Golan Heights with military force.

reply to post by Movescamp

Were you there and quietly cheerleading me in the corner???? cuz if you were I could of used your help. My sentiments exactly. People are so caught up in being right that the human rights aspect is often overlooked.

I will not hold you to rule number 1 for validating what I guess I needed validating on.

Let's talk about the facts, but put them into some perspective.
The first fact you should know, is you don't have access to very many facts. What happens in Israel, what happens to the Palestinians, will not be reported on nightly news that is controlled largely by...Jews.
No, you won't see conflicts of interest that exist in this "dispute" reported on nightly news either. You will not be told that the owners of the News agencies are Jewish, or have dual citizenship, and have homes in Israel.
You won't hear about all of the Jewish organizations that buy off our congress and fund their election campaigns. You won't hear about the hundreds of millions of dollars we send to Israel. You won't hear about the fact that Israel gets richer while the U.S.A. becomes a third world country.
But, we keep sending them money.
You won't hear about the fact that Jews control our nuclear weapons. You won't hear about a man that predicted that these same Jews would take down the U.S., like they took down Germany. These people control wall street, the federal reserve, Goldman Sachs, KKR, and too many others to list. They are professionals at destroying an economy while becoming extremely wealthy in the process. They control the U.S.A.. In fact, Obama has done more for Israel than any other president.
But, Israel is, and will never be, happy. They constantly warn and dictate what is and what is not acceptable, so they will not ever be pleased. After all, they are perpetual "victims".
Israel is controlled by "hard-liners"...essentially terrorists. The middle east has suffered...Iraq was laid to waste, all for Israel. And, now they want Iran.
Those are just the facts.

There are Jews and then there are Jews. There is a moneyed and powerful class of Jews that care nothing for the common Jewry. They are quite adept at manipulating your reality, and apparently have completely brainwashed your associates. That is not unusual. Unfortunately, they will not trust YOUR sources, nor mine. You are wasting your time. The history we have all been taught is largely a lie.
Start with the Jewish slave trade in your quest for knowledge.

reply to post by BlastedCaddy


I never used to pay the M.E. any mind until after 9-11 and to be honest was totally clueless. I wanted to find out "why" they felt it necessary to attack us. (keep in mind I was raised a catholic, went to parochial school where it was preached to me that Israel = good, and this was something I never questioned.) Anyway, wondering why (as george said) "they hate us for our freedom", I did alot of digging and reached the conclusion that Israel wasn't as good as I thought it was. I'm not saying Palestinians are angels, but my eyes have certainly opened to the oppression of them. On top of that, just learning of all the entitlement Israel believes is due them, racial conflict and intolerance propagated by Israel, printed in Israels own news, doesn't help my opinion of Israel.

I do believe US taxpayers are being grossly taken advantage of and if more Americans would take off their blinders and try to see it from the Palestinians side, and forget the nonsense and fairy tales that was preached to them growing up (about supporting Israel is what god wants them to do), then this world would be a much better place.

reply to post by Stewie

Um nope sorry. The history we were told is not a lie it is biased as nearly all information not in mathematics is. What you are saying may be true. However it's the propaganda the Zionist want you to spew. The want divisions and hate spread. There us more than enough information about world war one to know the British screwed the Arabs and the Jews. They were both promised land by the Brits. The Arabs about 80 percent and the Jews about 20. The whole thing went bad when European refugees (pre holocaust)started flooding the new Jewish land. The Arabs got itchy about it and had some riots. The Zionist movement started sometime around or slightly before ww1. Post ww1 the league of nations rulings, the Brits, and refugees pushed it over the top.

Not all Jews are Zionist. Most Jews just want their children to be happy. So do most Arabs.

When people start getting murdered, families split up, food shortages, etc this stuff happens. It doesn't matter if it's Ireland, Bosnia, India, or the moon people will always feel emotions over injustice and rebel or get violent.

Violence has no beginning or end unless you sacrifice and stop the cycle. It may take a peaceful martyr. Look at what MLK or Ghandi accomplished by forcing people to see how gross brutality is. They used their own valor and bodies to show it.

Originally posted by BiGGz
reply to post by Lemon.Fresh

 

Excuse me, but Resolution 242 states:

"Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict"

Recent conflict being Six-Day war, were Israel occupied the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and Golan Heights with military force.

edit on 24-2-2011 by BiGGz because: (no reason given)

It also says

"Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force."




The resolution also calls for the implementation of the "land for peace" formula, calling for Israeli withdrawal from "territories" it had occupied in 1967 in exchange for peace with its neighbors

When Lord Caradon was asked about the concessions the Arab states would have to make to Israel as part of an overall settlement he said "Well, that's perfectly obvious if you read again the principles of 242, which have been accepted by Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Saudi Arabia, and in effect by Israel. The provision is that if there is an adequate withdrawal, all states in the area must be free to live within secure and recognized boundaries, free from force and threat of force. So it is an acceptance that Israel has a right to exist, just as the Palestinians have a right to their homeland, and have a right to exist. This is the essential bargain that we are proposing. It's not a new thing, it's been going since 1967.

Here is my solution for world peace, to include the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

Eliminate all borders.
Eliminate all governments.
Eliminate all Militaries.
Let the people be free.

Let everyone call Earth what they want to call it.

If you call it Israel, then to you the whole earth is Israel and you have your promised land.
If you call it Palestine, the whole earth is Palestine and you have your promised land.

It is a piece of dirt people. We have plenty to share if we stop allowing our governments to fence us into borders.

We can do more working together despite our differences then we can devoting so much of our resources to killing each other.

We can take this earth back. Get with the spirit of Love and Freedom.

If you know any Israelis or Palestinians, share this post with them.

Final Warning

There is a whirlwind circling the globe, and it's name is Christ, the spirit of love and freedom.

With Love,

Your Brother

now wait a minute...too much generalizing....there is two israels,,,the political evil mothers and the spiritual ones ,,,,i guess the secular residents don't count in the battle, they are of all makes and nationalities and get along just fine

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh


Except 242 is very clear in what sort of "land for peace" should be instituted; full withdrawal with full peace.

The trouble is, Israel's leadership does not want to follow this model. They are demanding absolute peace in exchange for a piecemeal, incomplete withdrawal, with Israel making the decisions where it withdraws from; and thus far it has made no noises about what those areas might be, so it's a safe assumption that Israel is simply not giving Resolution 242 any thought. The Palestinians, rather understandably, want 242 to be enforced as it was passed by the UN, not as how it's being creatively interpreted by Israel; even were they to accede to Israel's version of it, they are hampered by the fact that Israel considers every two-bit thug on the Palestinian side of things to be an agent of the "state" (so to speak).

Basically Israel is demanding the Palestinians deliver perfection in exchange for imperfection

Of course, Israel's reasons for this is just as clear - Israel is egregiously violating several parts of the 4th Geneva Conventions, in acquiring territory through war, in denying refugees the right of return, and in extending its own population into occupied territory. Respecting 242 would make all this impossible and would hamper Israel's drive for "greater Israel" to be realized.