Abortion, Genocide, what’s THE difference?!?!?!?!?.... do you condone murder???

reply to post by eletheia


I respect your clam response so thanks for that.

I appreiciate there is no way a man can understand the pain of childbirth, although we know it's compared to kidney stone pain or even severe back pain (the kind that cripples) so some men, including myself have an idea

But it's not just about that. When it comes to making the law a man should have no say in regards to whether a woman should or should not have an abortion because that would require the state to suspend a womans human rights, her autonomy and that would be wrong. So in that instance i would agree a mans word means far less.

However in the mere discussion of all the various argument and attributes involved surely everyones opinion is equal regardless of sex. Indeed if a mans opinion means less then any man who supports a womans right to abortion, like myself should be listened to less as well. However it seems when we agree with the position we are welcomed and listened to, if we disagree then we are told our opinion doesn't matter as much.

In the end no matter how someone bends or twists, it is sexist to say one sexes opinion means less because of their gender. Remember for years womens opinions were simply ignored because of their gender. As for circumcision, even though women don't have a penis i will listen to their arguments and hold them in the same regard as mens if they make them calmly and they have some good data behind them. And i would expect the same in return from women.

Note i'm not criticising all women with these comments, only one or two.

Originally posted by Kailassa
I believe in god and don't feel the least insulted by Sinnthia's reference to sky monsters,
and any god who was so easily insulted would be a pretty pathetic being.

I've never see anything in her posts insulting men in general.

I guess if you want to take offence and play the martyr you can be insulted by anything.
Playing the endlessly maligned victim is one alternative to proving your case.

edit on 3/3/11 by Kailassa because: formatting

Her repeated use of capitalising the word MEN, says something, as does her comments that mens opinions mean less regarding this topic simply because they are men and if you check way back in the thread she hints at all men being potential rapists. It's back in the early pages but it says something about all women being vulnerable to rape it just requires an opening, suggesting all men are just waiting for the chance.

I think that's a decent enough case for what was being aimed at her.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
reply to post by eletheia

 

I understand it's difficult to accurately judge someones opinion without being in their shoes, but i'm more interested as to whether you think the validity of a mans opinion on a discussion forum regarding this topic should be considered less valid. To me that's sexism, just like me saying a womans opinion would be less valid on the topic of circumcision.

If the discussion was about life on other planets, whose opinion would have more validity, yours or an astrobiologist's?

There's nothing sexist about giving more credit to the opinion of the person with more knowledge of the subject.

Abortion is intimately connected with a woman's biology and with her experience of the alternatives, pregnancy, birth and motherhood. As such, the woman's opinion on the subject can be expected to have greater validity than that of a man.

That's not to say the man's opinion should be discarded. I've found your posts on this subject interesting and insightful. This thread would be much poorer without them.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Her repeated use of capitalising the word MEN, says something, as does her comments that mens opinions mean less regarding this topic simply because they are men and if you check way back in the thread she hints at all men being potential rapists. It's back in the early pages but it says something about all women being vulnerable to rape it just requires an opening, suggesting all men are just waiting for the chance.

I think that's a decent enough case for what was being aimed at her.

Perhaps you haven't noticed how frequently anti-choice men generalise about women, implying women are all immoral, untrustworthy sluts. It's easy, when replying to these types, to get upset and reply with generalisations in return, forgetting to make clear you are only talking about a small group of men.

I've watched Sinnthia's posts on ATS since she joined, because they have impressed me. Almost all her posting has been in male-dominated threads, and never has the issue of gender been raised except in abortion threads. She's not in the habit of raising such things, no matter how strongly men argue against her.

Besides, it's a fact that all women are vulnerable to rape, (just look at rape cases and statistics,) - and yes, I know some males are raped too, but that is almost always done by males too. However saying this in no way implies the average man is a rapist. When a girl is concerned about the possibility of rape, it's not because she thinks 99% of men are rapists, it's because she knows 1% might if they have the chance. (excuse the statistics pulled out of a lower orifice)

In lieu of trustworthy stats:

In his memoirs, if I recall correctly, a Soviet veteran estimated that (at least) one third of Soviet soldiers committed rape (usually upon German women or girls) near or after the end of the Second World War.

A 2009 survey found that 28% of South African men admitted that they had raped at least one woman or girl.

answers.yahoo.com...

Originally posted by Kailassa
If the discussion was about life on other planets, whose opinion would have more validity, yours or an astrobiologist's?

There's nothing sexist about giving more credit to the opinion of the person with more knowledge of the subject.

There are plenty of women out there who know nothing about abortion. If a man has done the research then he knows enough about the topic to discuss it he should have his opinion treated with the same respect as a womans, as long as he stays within factual areas or uses the facts as a base for a good argument.

Where i would agree a mans opinion means less is if he tried to describe the emotions of the actual act, because obviously no man can have an abortion so it would make no sense for him to claim to understand the emotional effects of one. However when talking about the general topic of abortion i think men have equal and valid input.

A man trying to figure out when life should be considered protected under law is on a completely equal footing with a woman, because they're both trying to use science and philosophy.

Originally posted by Kailassa
Abortion is intimately connected with a woman's biology and with her experience of the alternatives, pregnancy, birth and motherhood. As such, the woman's opinion on the subject can be expected to have greater validity than that of a man.

That's not to say the man's opinion should be discarded. I've found your posts on this subject interesting and insightful. This thread would be much poorer without them.

Thanks and you know i hold you in rather high regard from our interactions on other threads, however i have been called several rather unkind and innaccurate things by a user simply because i dared to say that disregarding a mans opinon, simply because he is a man, is sexist.

You have acknowledged men, well some men, have valid inputs or insights, if we are to say these mean less than a womans than it's pretty pointless for a man to be involved in any of these debates and they should be sectioned off and left to women. I wouldn't agree with that of course but it's the end result of not holding views in equal esteem based on sex.

Originally posted by Kailassa
Perhaps you haven't noticed how frequently anti-choice men generalise about women, implying women are all immoral, untrustworthy sluts. It's easy, when replying to these types, to get upset and reply with generalisations in return, forgetting to make clear you are only talking about a small group of men.

I have noticed it, i have replied against it as well. Women making such a difficult decision as abortion don't deserve to be called such things.

Originally posted by Kailassa
Besides, it's a fact that all women are vulnerable to rape, (just look at rape cases and statistics,) - and yes, I know some males are raped too, but that is almost always done by males too. However saying this in no way implies the average man is a rapist. When a girl is concerned about the possibility of rape, it's not because she thinks 99% of men are rapists, it's because she knows 1% might if they have the chance. (excuse the statistics pulled out of a lower orifice)

I understand this thinking however it is flawed and as i'm someone currently working with a group of people to dispel the myth it really gets annoying. Understand most men don't report rape, estimates vary but it could be as high as 90% don't report and even 70% don't consider certain acts as being rape, for example i've spoken to men who were blackmailed into sex but didn't think it was rape, or men who have had girlfriends force sex upon them but they still didn't think it was rape because a woman did it. Currently we're working to get some UK soap operas interested in a storyline about it as the storylines done regarding domestic violence against women raised so much awareness we think it could really help.

So maybe you can see my annoyance on this issue and also understand that in the same way a man cannot ever understand what childbirth is like, a woman can never understand what it feels like for a man to be told he's a potential rapist.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

You have been caught lying, you have admitted to manipulating people, you have admitted to spinning the truth (a form of deceipt) and you seem almost gleeful in all of it.

Please give examples of all those above (except for manipulating...I admit that...and it is only to get the truth out).

You said I lied...but you in fact never did answer the question I asked...you attempted to SPIN your answer to attempt to show I lied

And my "spinning" admission was a bit of sarcasm to Sinthia...if you didn't notice...it was about a resume

You are not worthy of debate, but you are worthy of ridicule.

We can always go over to the debate forum where our arguments will be judged by others...I've offered that more than once in this thread...no takers


I think you are just a little bitter now that you have realized you have admitted in this thread that you support killing fellow human life. Because you have this moral superiority about yourself..even though you try to bash religous people...you are so much like them. And I think it has bruised your self image to realize that you do in fact support the killing of other humans.


But I got your private message, so bye...again. (Is this the 4th or 5th time you said you are done with me????)

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Originally posted by Kailassa
Perhaps you haven't noticed how frequently anti-choice men generalise about women, implying women are all immoral, untrustworthy sluts. It's easy, when replying to these types, to get upset and reply with generalisations in return, forgetting to make clear you are only talking about a small group of men.

I have noticed it, i have replied against it as well. Women making such a difficult decision as abortion don't deserve to be called such things.

The women who choose not to have abortions cop exactly the same contempt, and it's from the same people, [women as well as men, being a female is no bar to being a misogynist,) in my experience. I've gone through so much contempt and insults for being a single mother, even though I only became single because my husband was so violent to the children I had to remove them for their own safety.

Originally posted by Kailassa
Besides, it's a fact that all women are vulnerable to rape, (just look at rape cases and statistics,) - and yes, I know some males are raped too, but that is almost always done by males too. However saying this in no way implies the average man is a rapist. When a girl is concerned about the possibility of rape, it's not because she thinks 99% of men are rapists, it's because she knows 1% might if they have the chance. (excuse the statistics pulled out of a lower orifice)

I understand this thinking however it is flawed and as i'm someone currently working with a group of people to dispel the myth it really gets annoying. Understand most men don't report rape, estimates vary but it could be as high as 90% don't report and even 70% don't consider certain acts as being rape, for example i've spoken to men who were blackmailed into sex but didn't think it was rape, or men who have had girlfriends force sex upon them but they still didn't think it was rape because a woman did it. Currently we're working to get some UK soap operas interested in a storyline about it as the storylines done regarding domestic violence against women raised so much awareness we think it could really help.

Just as men often didn't see what they were doing was rape if they considered themselves in a relationship with a girl, and the girls were often confused and thought they should be putting up with it, girls often seem blind to the fact that forcing or coercing a male is rape. And yes, I know the ridicule and disbelief a man who admits to being raped by a girl can be exposed to.

So maybe you can see my annoyance on this issue and also understand that in the same way a man cannot ever understand what childbirth is like, a woman can never understand what it feels like for a man to be told he's a potential rapist.

A couple of social workers from Melbourne Health and Community Services, (HACS, our child welfare,) got a grudge against me because they blamed me for making them lose a case against someone they were targeting. They had never lost a case before then, and were under pressure to keep winning, not only from management, but from the state Premier as it was an election issue. So, in revenge, every resource the state had was thrown against me. I was spied on, tailed and photographed everywhere I went. They thought, me being a penniless single mum, I'd be easy, but for years I'd been living an exceptionally boring, chaste life.

Still they determinedly built up their case and took me to court, trying to take my children from me. It was a horrendous year of court appearances, mostly having no decent lawyer, but I finally quashed all their accusations except one. They also kept turning up in the late evening or 5-7am, breaking in and trying to steal the children while I was asleep. Child protection folk have powers way beyond those accorded to the police.

They ended up resting their case on twisted statistics which they said proved that, because of the way I had been abused during childhood, I was bound to sexually abuse my own children if they were left with me. I think you understand just how dirty that accusation made me feel. I was almost ready to give up my kids then, because just hearing that made me feel I had no right to be around them any more. And then I found who my friends were, as rumours of this spread around and I started hearing sneers of "no smoke without fire."

I won, but the experience permanently affected my life. So yes, I know exactly how it feels to be told you're a potential rapist.

Originally posted by MindSpin

But I got your private message, so bye...again. (Is this the 4th or 5th time you said you are done with me????)

I said i was done debating you, exposing you are a liar and manipulator is never getting old

That's all you'll get, me proving you are a liar and i already gave a detailed post on that one.

reply to post by Sinnthia

I have no clue why I should be doing any such thing but you sure do like telling people what they should do. If you want to dispute the beginning of biological life, you are talking to the wrong person. Most people have already given you that.

Yes, they have given me that...and then it is they that have to shift goalposts. They shift to "sentient" life, or "brain waves", or "viability", or "birth", or some other arbitrarily picked point to say that until then...although they are "human"....they aren't a "person".

And you guys say I spin???

My position has been 100% consistent. I could repeat it again, but it is clear your reading comprehension isn't up to par if you think I have been shifting my argument.

This posts is from you to me. Annee is not here. Tell Annee how much you like Annee. What a silly comparison. I guess that means any poster who shows even a modicum of common sense can be compared to your obvious lack thereof?

LOL, I'm sorry...but I can bring up anyone I want. Annee was a perfect comparison to you....like you she was ignorantly denying biological fact. She finally decided to look it up and educate herself. I thought maybe you could follow her lead, but I see that your very enflated ego won't allow you to replace your ignorance with knowledge if it means conceding a point.

Live your life in ignorance...seems to work for you.

The only way you can ever claim to have been right about anything is immediately after lying about something.

Really???

No one has refuted my argument...the most someone has come to saying my argument is incorrect is someone saying it is "less logical" than theirs.

You are not sure if you can hope I will look up something we have already actually agreed about and moved on from?

Oh good...so you do finally admit that human life begins at conception.

So I think that is 6 or 7 pro-choicers that have admitted this after denying it.

So you are now fine saying that abortion is killing another human life....right???

Maybe if you stopped spending 14 hours a day lying about abortion

Where exactly am I lying???

Please quote a lie from me about abortion....please????

You are so busy trying to flood the boards with nonsense that you cannot even keep your arguments straight. That is not helping you out at all.

You can keep trying to get that lie to stick...but it just makes you look like you are clueless. Do you want my argument again...I can give it AGAIN...it's the same it has been through this whole thread...but ok...here it is AGAIN. I'll dumb it down a little for you, since you seem to have a hard time following paragraph form.

- Murder is the premeditated killing of another human life.
- Human life begins at conception (by your own admission, you and most others agree with this).
- Abortion ends human life.
- Abortion is a premeditated action.
- Abortion is Murder.

QED

Oh, the one we already had. How about you go back and read how it went the last time we did that instead. It is important because if you at least followed your own argument, you would realize that you lost this one the last few times too because you cannot carry it to the NEXT throught without ADDING AND SHIFTING.

I LOST....LOL.

Please show me where I "lost"....you crack me up. Posting in this thread was worth it just to meet you.

One of the problems with spending all day writing the same things over and over again is that you apparently forget what you have already gone over and have just really repeating the same personal attacks and fallatious "prove me wrongs" that never get the hollow earth people anywhere either.

You know what else doesn't work...repeating over and over that you are right when you have never refuted the argument in the first place


Let's review your participation in this thread...because I did go back to see if you admitted that life begins at conception (which you didn't).

- You spent your first few posts fighting against pro-choice people until you finally realized they were pro-choice.
- You spent time hating on men
- You then tried to prove how all women live in fear every second of their life about being raped
- You then tried to argue that men can legally harm or kill your unborn child
- You then tried to compare human life to broccoli
- After all of that failed fantastically...you shifted to personally attacking me about discussing this topic "too much".
- You have consistently confused people's arguments.
- You tried the "religous" card on me
- You then insulted religon anyway, even when no one took your bait
- You have tried to use the angle of me not "doing" anything to help save children besides talking on ATS.
- And finally...and this is really the best part....you are claiming that you have refuted all my arguments...and I'm just deny it.



You are really a piece of work...delusional and paranoid...but still entertaining.



At least you FINALLY admit in this reply that you agree that biological life begins at conception. Now...if it is indeed "human life"...then you must also admit that abortion "ends" that human life....right???

reply to post by Sinnthia

Gosh. Almost sounds like you are telling me what to do on top of telling all women what to do with their babies.

Babies??? It is nice to see you finally admit that they are indeed babies that are being killed. Progress.

And yes...I am telling you what you should do...not because you are a women...but because you are ignorant to some basic facts and you should fill that gap. You have finally admitted that life begins at conception...but it took you so long to do so, I still think you should take a basic biology class.

This is friendly advice...I don't like seeing people not educated in basic life sciences.

You are getting boring. I am really curious though what good you think you have actually done to help stop, curb, prevent any abortions in the last week.

None. But at least you and others have admitted that Life begins at conception.

Not that you will carry that over to your next discussion on abortion unless someone spends 70+ pages drilling you on it.

All it seems you have done is be rude, lie, and make people on your side step back from you. I am not so sure what your real goal could be but your shtick is wearing thin. If I eventually just stop responding to you altogether, I was bored to death from responding to your littany of abortion essays day after day after day. How many posts have you written to me in other abortion threads? Seems like a silly question but then I know the answer is actually, quite a few.

I get it, I get it....discussing an issue you have strong feelings about is bad....great logic.

And could you please get me an example of where I "lied"???

reply to post by Sinnthia

No you did not. You have been writing about this exact thing for days now. Your entire crusade is based on your idea that all women are just waiting to steal your sperm and abort the result.

Ummm...no.

Just more evidence you are completely lost in this thread.

I forgot how you like to repeat things. I am curious if you think writing a 1000 posts means something when 500 say one thing and the other 500 say another thing. You can do that in 2 posts. Stop going over old material.

And I never forgot how you like to dodge and ignore your own previous comments.

I honestly think that you believe if you repeat arguments you have already lost, eventually you will win.

And I believe you think that if you repeat that you have refuted my argument and that I have changed my argument, that it will make it true.

You make that much obvious when after your 14 hour marathon, some people logged off and you used that declare you had won something.

Oh, and look at you repeating an old rant.

Hypocrisy much?

I am still not sure what you are trying to win because I have yet to see you stop or prevent one abortion. You have yet to tell us of all the children you are adopting. The only thing you have done, is stay on ATS talking about abortion, repeating yourself over and over again, until people get bored with you.

Have I ever stated I am trying to "win" anything?

At least I educated a bit on biological life...you're welcome.

reply to post by Kailassa


How exactly would one be talking about a specific group of men if they were making generalizations? If you cannot see that Sinnthia is sexist, then perhaps your logic is being clouded by your support for her point of view. Even someone who is arguing her point of view can see the sexism in her posts.

reply to post by Sinnthia

Please do not tell me that you are saying directing this to me just because I mentioned "man-hater". Not once will you see that I said anything along the lines of "women need to be corralled and controlled". However, if you were not directing this at me, then sorry, my mistake.

reply to post by Maslo

No, brain waves require fully differentiated and interconnected neurons, which do not appear in the first trimester.

None of your "sources" say this. And like your source says...little research has been done since the 1960's. They may know more about the adult human brain...but your source trying to extrapolate that to the developing brain is a huge logical leap with no backing SCIENCE.


And about your "source"...it is a pro-choice blogger....FOR CHRISTS SAKE MAN...WTF??? Do you really think that is a credible SOURCE???

Have I linked ANY pro-life website??? NOOOOOOO. I have stuck to MEDICAL websites.

And do you know what this blogger does....She dismisses ONE study that showed brain waves and said it wasn't good science...and promotes a different one that validates her opinion.

One study said it recorded brain waves early...one said it couldn't...she choose the one that supported her views.

Come on...stop lying to yourself and using crap sources....A PRO-CHOICE BLOGGER IS NOT A GOOD SOURCE.

Let's go to the debate forum....PLEASE???? Let's let others judge your wikipedia and pro-choice blogger sources vs my medical website sources. Are you willing to do that?


But hell...let me look at your "sources" anyway.

Functional maturity of the cerebral cortex is suggested by fetal and neonatal electroencephalographic patterns...First, intermittent electroencephalograpic bursts in both cerebral hemispheres are first seen at 20 weeks gestation; they become sustained at 22 weeks and bilaterally synchronous at 26 to 27 weeks.

Seriously...1987 paper??? Can you get something from at least this decade??? Your blogger dismiss 1964 studies...but uses 1987 studies as cutting edge science???

And the entire premise of that blog is that brain waves detected by an EEG should be the criteria for life...an EEG is not very sensative as we have discussed before.

You have done nothing to prove that undetected brain waves may not be present...and since your criteris is that there is NO CHANCE of sentience...you are being dishonest in not admitting that there may be a CHANCE...even if it is a very small chance...there there is some sentience present once brain cells develop.

OK, substitute MRI scans.

MRI scans need a specific target to focus on. It would probably take an entire month or longer to scan the entire body using MRI.

PET scans are the prefered way to "detect" cancer...MRI can be used to zoom in on it.

Yes, which means saving the (already existing) person from death. But the probability that some fetus is so abnormal that it has so hugely accelerated brain development as to have BW in third month (and is not dead due to abnormality) is very very small.

So if a fetus develops brain waves early...that means it is going to die???

How exactly does that logic work???

First, we have to establish objective basis for morality based on logic and science (relevant sciences - anthropology, sociology, philosophy). That is done here. In short, define it, determine why it evolved in a society, thus determining purpose, and objective moral basis is established as comparing laws or whole moral systems accoring to how effectivelly they fulfill this purpose (consequentialist morality). Derived objective basis:
...
And since my morality is based on logic and science, I can claim that statements which do not agree with it are not only immoral, but in fact illogical. Hence, protecting all human life is illogical.

Philosophy is not a science...sociology is a "social science"...why do you continue to try to distort these facts??? If you call philosophy a science...then I guess you are calling Religion a science. :shk:

Objective moral bassis??? Nothing you have been saying is objective...it is all SUBJECTIVE...confirmed by the fact that not everyone agrees on your set of morals. :shk: :shk:

Further...your "source" you are using here is saying "consciousness"...which you previously dismissed...because you know as well as I it is hard to prove a newborn baby is "conscious".

So if you want to stick with this argument...then you are going to have to admit that you support killing newborn babies if the mothers feel it would benefit their well-being.

You are mixing "sentient" and "conscousness"....which are two different things (admitted by you). Please stay consistent. Your twisting and turning is amusing...but it is getting sad.

And if your "morals" are based on "philosophy and science"...then so is a religous persons...and according to them...your position is illogical.

THIS is the problem with using subjective philosophy as the basis for your argument...everyone has their own subjective philosophy...and no ones is more correct than others. Do you not understand this???


And I see you failed to answer any of my questions...again. :shk: :shk: :shk:

I'll repeat them AGAIN.

- Is your goal to protect all sentient beings or not?

- I thought this was your personal moral philosophy...why would you not follow your own persnal moral philosophy?

- do you think any life should be "protected"???

- And since you have just contradicted your basis of your argument that all "sentient" life should be protected...what exactly is your new criteria for "protection" of life??? You don't do this in practice...so you can not claim that this is your honest belief without being a hypocrite.

- Why is a adult human "protected"...what is the criteria?


Please don't dodge them again.

reply to post by Kailassa


You have honestly not seen any of her posts insulting men in general? How about the one where she implied that all men were rapists who were simply waiting for the chance to strike? How about her statement that implied that a man's opinion is less valuable than a woman's opinion on the subject of abortion?

I did not take offense to her post, by the way. I just wanted to point out how ridiculous it is that she would respond in such a manner to someone who had never responded to anyone in such a manner even when conflicting views were presented.

And if you even read any of my posts, you would see that I was never attempting to prove a case. For the most part, I have been asking questions and asking people of their opinions. But I am not surprised that you would respond in a similar manner to me as Sinnthia did.

reply to post by Sinnthia

14 hours is 14 hours. 14 hours online, writing post after post after post after post after post on abortion.

Are you admitting that you cannot actually do anything producting or real and all you have left is spending your work day bouncing back to ATS?

I know you have comprehension issues...so I'll repeate it again.

While I work...I surf ATS. I'm sorry you can't comprehend that. But I really don't care...it's just funny that this is your BEST argument against me...that I spend too much time discussing abortion.

I am not buying it. This is not saving any babies. This is not winning you any converts that I can see. So, perhaps your time at work not working would be better spent working to end abortions? I guess there is no logic in that.

Good thing I never said my goal here was any of that. Keep trying though...it's entertaining.

You seem to have run out of anything productive and resorted to petty personal insults that really do not hurt much. A scared, declawed cat, blindly swatting at anything that moves. Your game is old and tired and you seemed to have already lost it about 50 pages ago.

Pot....this is Kettle....Kettle...meet pot.

DO NOT EVER CALL ME HUN.
Not you!
You don't get to call me anything but Sinnthia.

No problem Hun.


You know you had to see that coming...no? Or do you think your online presence is so intimidating that I would listen to that?

Have a good day hun.

reply to post by eletheia

Therefor if this is true would you agree with me that the belligerent, aggressive, antagonistic,

bullying attitude of Mind Spin make him a WOMAN HATER

I don't hate women...I love women.

I dislike baby killers.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

MindSpin has tried to bully everyone in the thread

You are the third person to accuse me of being a "bully".

Like I said to the other two...a bully needs leverage or an advantage to bully others.


What is my leverage or advantage that is allowing me to "bully" others?

reply to post by eletheia

IMO if this thread is to go any

further it will only do so if posts are made and Mind Spins input ignored.

Yes...ignore the only remaining person putting forth a pro-life argument.

Ignore the facts...bury your head...that is ATS way