Abortion, Genocide, what’s THE difference?!?!?!?!?.... do you condone murder???

Originally posted by 44247844
reply to post by 27jd

 

Any question I ask is directed to everyone, it is just that some are directed especially at particular people. I agree with you that late-term abortions are entirely unnecessary. I know that abortion is an important decision, and that it may take time, but 6 months into the pregnancy you would think that a person would have an idea of what they are going to do, especially considering that there is a baby continually increasing in development inside of them as they decide.

Third trimester abortions are not something the average pregnant woman would want. You get attached to your foetus in more ways than one, as it grows and you hear its heartbeat and feel it kicking.

However they should be legal in certain circumstances, such as when a doctor decides continued pregnancy is endangering the mother's life or will seriously affect her long-term health.

Ethically, this is similar to separating cojoined twins when one knows the separation will or may kill one, but it's known that the cojoined twins will not be capable of a healthy life together.

Both situations are tragedies, but the decision must be left to qualified doctors and the parents.


One reason I'm in favour of free, easy to obtain legal abortions is so the issue of late abortions rarely comes up. When someone close to me was raped, she was able to have an abortion 4 weeks later. Even then it was a sad event.

I only know one person on ATS who is actually pro abortion. That poster scornfully refers to parents as "breeders" and sees no problem with abortion at any stage. However most of us who argue for the right to legal abortion see it as a very sad choice which is only made because, at times, it is the lesser of two evils.

I have raised three children, mostly on my own, in very difficult circumstances. I know what's involved and how difficult it is to bring up children on your own, on a very limited income, to be well adjusted capable adults. Anti-abortionists don't give a damn what this does to the life of the women or her children. The worst nastiness and contempt I've had to endure has been from the same people who demonstrate outside family planning clinics against abortion. They are the people who sneak in through the back door when they want abortions themselves.

I made the choice to keep my unplanned children and raise them. It was a choice only because abortion was available. When things got too difficult, at least I knew I was in that situation by choice, and that helped me cope. If I'd felt my children had been forced on me things might have been much worse for the children.

Any other woman should be entitled to have the same choice I had, and to only become a mother if that's what she chooses.

Btw, there are statistics showing over half the women seeking abortions were using contraception when they fell pregnant.

Originally posted by Kailassa
However they should be legal in certain circumstances, such as when a doctor decides continued pregnancy is endangering the mother's life or will seriously affect her long-term health.

Ethically, this is similar to separating cojoined twins when one knows the separation will or may kill one, but it's known that the cojoined twins will not be capable of a healthy life together.

Both situations are tragedies, but the decision must be left to qualified doctors and the parents.

Right. Late term abortion should only be available under medically necessary circumstances. And I believe that is the way the laws are set up currently anyway.

reply to post by Kailassa

Third trimester abortions are not something the average pregnant woman would want. You get attached to your foetus in more ways than one, as it grows and you hear its heartbeat and feel it kicking. However they should be legal in certain circumstances, such as when a doctor decides continued pregnancy is endangering the mother's life or will seriously affect her long-term health.

Late-term abortions are a distinct issue. These are banned in almost every country except China. Public opinion in the US is also overwhelmingly against late-term abortions being legal, even second-trimester (cca 69%), while supporting aborton in the first trimester. Almost all abortions happen in the first trimester, anyway. Of course, when th health of the mother is endangered, it is allowed.

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by 44247844


Just want to mention - - that since I believe everything is energy - - that we are "energy beings" - - and physical is a thought creation. I have to put myself into - - what is an unnatural mindset for me - - to discuss this from a physical realm others believe is real. I hope that makes sense to you.

reply to post by Agit8dChop

A life isn't a life until it opens its eyes and the mind starts processing the real world. This doesn't occur in the womb, therefore its not murder.

Just to be clear...the eyes do open in the womb. Though dark it may be and you may not consider this 'processing the real world'....they eyes do open at about 28 weeks in the womb.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by kevinunknown

 

1. Genocide

the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group

You are incorrect about genocide. Words mean things.

I wasn't going to comment on this issue but after reading that definition, wow! Heretic, I'm not sure how you could say such a thing. Fetuses are a political group. But then again the FDA has *grouped* nutritional supplements into their own *group* for *political* regulation purposes. If you have ever thrown out a bottle of vitamins you have committed genocide! (by your cited definition) I think you have some re-phrasing to do.

Originally posted by MindSpin
Refute that human life begins when human sperm fertilizes a human egg and cell division begins.

Refute what you just hit reply to.

Please...if you say it has been done...it should be easy for you to do it as well.

Yeah, I specifically said that is the thing that has been successfully refuted and ignored by you, right?
You can do better than that.

Playbook...hilarious.

Glad I make you laugh. You have to have some fun once in a while. Otherwise, I'd wish I had been aborted.

Is broccoli HUMAN? What do you not understand about this...HUMAN LIFE.

I understand the difference but I am not sure that you do since your reasoning continues to waver between varying definitions. I kind of wish you did have a playbook so we could get something consistent to hold onto.

I have repeatedly said over and over and over and over and over....that I am ONLY CONCERNED ABOUT HUMAN LIFE. I have no issues with this....I eat plants (life)...I eat animals (life)...I don't eat humans

Have you really? To me? In this conversation? I am not sure. I reply to what I am reading. Not what else you hope I read.

I value a human fetus over any other non-human life. It's quite simple.

Do you value a human fetus over a gnat???

All value is relative and that is kind of a silly one to ask. One can easily introduce enough variables to argue either side successfully

I used your EXACT WORDS...I twisted nothing. If that isn't what you meant..then don't write it.

Actually you wrote out a response you me EXACT WORDS and that is where the twisting was. Do you not see your own words in that post responding to me?

Well then you should of said so...but you didn't.

Why should I have said so? What else that I am not or do not believe should I have to announce to people?

Is it a possibility now?

Yep.

How about now?

Yep.

Now?

Yep.

Did you get raped any of those times???

Nope but that does not mean home invasion rapes are not happening. I did not die in a house fire or have a sudden stroke any of those times either but that stuff happens as well. There is no safe deposit box for lady parts. Sorry.

It's a possibility I am going to get hit by a meatorite every moment...doesn't effect my behavior.

Yeah let's compare instances of rape to death by metorite shall we. Got some numbers? When you go outside, how many meteorites do you think you walk past? I bet the number of penises is a little higher.

I have an opening...I guess I'm a potential rape victim.

Because men get raped just as often outside prisons right?

Oh...but you only care about humans that can get pregnant from rape. Those poor old ladies that get raped...I guess you don't think they are as important than other rape victims. Or the men in jail that get raped.

I said that I do not care about rapes that do not result in pregnancy? I thought we were talking about abortion. While you keep trying to pretend rape does not exist, I find it hard to understand what post menopausal or male on male rape has to do with abortion. Help me out. Men getting knocked up in jail now?

By your definition...having an opening...we are all potential victims of rape. I guess we should all live in fear

I do not know how to respond to points I have responded to more than once already. Why are you being so repetetive?

I am twisting nothing...speak plainly and clearly if you don't want your words to be misunderstood.

I cannot speak any more clearly but you continue to grab on to the most extreme and bend it until it snaps as well as transfer the weight of your own argument from "principal" to "principal."

It is a fact that you said...and I quote..."I specifically pointed to living in fear that you may be raped and impregnated against your will. This is not a rare circumstance. This is a part of the reality of being a woman, EVERY MOMENT OF OUR LIVES."

But if you atually applied it logically to what I responded to, it would not seem as hyperbolic as it does now. Nice job.

No call me crazy...but it sounds like you are saying that because you are a women you are living in fear of being raped EVERY MOMENT OF YOUR LIFE.

I really think you are just trying to make this post as long as you can for some weird reason as you have 'paragraph' after paragraph of that same point over and over again. Damn.

I have no idea how I came to that conclusion....oh yeah....YOU SAID EXACTLY THAT.

In response to something but hey, maybe you have been distracted with all the adopted children bothering you?

And you are right...this is ATS...so there is a good chance that you are in fact a paranoid nut...not helping your case here.

You are here too.

Then you shouldn't write that you are in fact scared every moment of you life of being raped (see above for quote).

HOLY CRAP DUDE!!!!!

I got it and responded the last four times. This post is so sad.

She only found your paranoia funny....she is disgusted by rape and abortion. You seem to only be disgusted by rape...sad.

Cool.

You did fine making yourself look crazy...again...see above quote of your own words.

I actually have a feel that enough other people could follow along to understand what I was saying. Part of me wants to believe you really could as well but just refuse to because this is more fun that trying to make your case for real.

LOL...seriously???

I guess you do not get how context works, do you?

So you are ok with men beign paid more as firemen...because they have to pass a more physically demanding test than the women do....huh?

If someone can do something better than I can for whatever reason, why should they get paid as little as me, or me as much as them?

Your uterus does not give you the right to kill another mans child...sorry.

Your penis does not give you the right to make a child.

Well...you did tell me to shush...which generally means to be silent

LMAO!

Yes. Yes I did say shhhh. Is that hate speech?

And by all means...express your opinion...I don't even have to do anything to invalidate it...you are doing fine by yourself.

Abortion is still legal. How many did you stop today? I guess it does not really matter then whether or not you or anyone else here feels my opinion is at all valid then does it? You have an odd sense of self rightiousness for someone who spends more time online discussion abortion than doing anything to actually help get where you want.

Like I said...sorry my resume isn't up to your standards...I think I will continue to express my opinion regardless.

I know you will. I am going to guess you will continue to express each and every opinion no less than 4 times each.

I am only concerned about HUMAN LIFE.

Ohhh. I am sorry.

I thought people that died in war and on death row were humans. I guess I got that wrong?

I disagree with wars, I don't support the death penalty. I'm sorry my entire belief system isn't well referenced in my 1 month of posting on a website

You know what I am really passionate about...racism...but you know what...an opportunity hasn't presented itself for me to discuss it in the one month I have been here....OH NO...I DON'T CARE ABOUT RACISM BECAUSE IT ISN"T IN MY POSTING HISTORY...

You know exactly what I am saying. You say you care about all human life but you spend 14 hours a day just talking about abortion. You can start any racism thread you want here. Crying that you have not had the opportunity to discuss racism, war, or the death penalty on ATS in a month sounds like you just want no one to take you seriously.

I'm not sure how this is a "valid argument"...I have one month of posting here...but somehow because I don't have enough anti-war or anti-death penalty posts...my views on abortion are invalid???

Yeah I am not sure where you are making that connection because that is also not what I said. Am I going to have to respond to this exact thought 3 or 4 more times now like all the others?

Yeah...great logic there.

Well, since it is not what I said...apparently that is your logic. That sucks.

Instead of worrying about my posting history...why not just refute the argument that life is a biological process STARTING at conception???

Yeah because all I have mentioned was your post history. I have not discussed biology or abortion at all yet.

Refute what now? Are you asking me to prove something is NOT? Really? Because I said many of your arguments have been refuted but not that one and yet that is the one I am not charged with proving wrong?
Refute that I have super powers. I did not say THIS arguement had been refuted. You really know how to just flood these pages with posts so that the original context gets more and more convoluted faster and faster. I cannot believe how fast this thread is moving and it is frightening how much of it is you, referring to things that are not quite actually as they are.

In this thread...YES...that is my main focus...becaus this topic is about ABORTION.

Shall I hold your hand as I explain what staying "on topic" is???

Right after you let me teach you what context does.

On topic dear...let's stay on topic.

The sanctity of life is not on topic enough for you? If the mods do not want me responding to your ideals about the sanctity of life in this thread then so be it. Report it. To me it seems pretty on topic.

Your agument is not winning anyone over. You are not actively doing anything to help your cause and you seem to lack the conviction of many of your base points. I am sorry but noticing the overwhelming level of insincerity is hard not do and it does make me question things.

Do you think what you are doing is helping?

And like I said...I'm against wars for oil...I'm against innocent people dying...I think the worst is killing babies.

And cell clusters even worse? Just some sperm and just an egg alone not at all? Could you draw up a scale of the value of human life for us since you finally did admit, you value humans differently by age?

Apparently you don't, as you mock them dying...really nice.

I am mocking what when why how? What are you talking about?

Unborn babies are real people.

Way to chop that sentence in half in order to avoid actually answering what I said. You seem pretty well versed in shifting the argument.

Pretending they aren't doesn't change the fact that women that have had an abortion have murdered their child.

Either remember that with every sperm you allow to go wasted, and every egg your wife fails to fertilize or else actually read my sentence again and respond to what I did say, not what you wish I said.

Abortion is my focus right now...you are just going to have to deal with it.

Not really.

I honestly don't know...how many of there are you in your head???

Wow that was clever.

I can't save babies...it's currently against the law...All I can do is speak out against the injustices being done.

Bullcrap. You can offer to adopt. You can mentor, donate, take a bigger part in your community, help schools with local outreach programs. Promote programs like planned parenthood to help PREVENT unwanted pregnancies to begin with. Why do you act like the only option is to force a pregnant girl to have her baby? How about helping prevent unwanted pregnancies? There are ways to do that.

And I will continue to do so, no matter how many times you emotionally rant about me doing so.

Appently it is much easier than actually doing anything.

How many babies you save today?
How many minds have you changed?

reply to post by MindSpin


Serious question here.

What are you more concerned about?

Preventing abortions or stopping wars?
Preventing abortions or helping Project Innocence?
Preventing abortions or making the future world one more people would want to have babies in?
Preventing abortions or having your next meal?

reply to post by OhZone

Mindspin, The woman is not in remorse over the clump of cell. She is thinking that it would have become a baby, and it is this future image that she created to feel bad about.

If you say so...nice how you can speak for all women.

Either way...remorse is remorse...a sign that something not good happened.

You are arguing from when does life start…I don’t care when it begins. It doesn’t matter. The whole issue hinges on the woman’s right to own her own body. What she does with it is no one’s business.

It 100% matters. Because if life begins at conception...then an abortion is NOT just about what a woman does with her own body...it is then affecting another human life.

We have many laws that protect the weak and defenseless (child abuse laws, elderly abuse laws, etc.). For those of us that want the human life at a very early stage of development protected...we see no difference.

This “when does life begin” argument was brought up by those who control freaks who want everyone to believe as they do about everything. This is their diversion from the fact that they wish to keep woman under man's power. Force her to be an incubator just to show her who is boss. Keep her a slave if only for a minmum of 9 months. Most law makers are men. There are women who cannot see what is going on and have come under their influence.

First of all...when life begins is a fact backed up by solid science. Only ones who are ignorant of science are denying this. Even in this thread...one by one the pro-choicers have caved and finally have admitted that life does begin at conception. And that is when they shift their definitions and positions.

And yes...most law makers are men...and abortion is currently legal...so what is your point exactly?

Are you saying that pro-choice women are somehow brainwashed and being kept down by men??? I guess you don't support the CHOICE they have made on this issue

Then we get into the "she shouldn't have had sex" argument. Which is another diversion. They seem to want to control her sex life too. Strangely or perhaps not so strangely this argument is Never thrown at the man. When he has to pay child support and whines about it....Does anyone ever say to him, "Well, you shouldn't have had sex....You know the consequences".... etc. etc ad nauseum.?

LOL...are you serious??? No one ever tells men that???

It is starting to be very clear that you are just a very confused and delusional individual. We all know you hate men...and it is clearly effecting your ability to think logically.

You never told me how either the birth or the abortion affects your personal life.
For that matter how does any birth or death outside your personal sphere, affect your life?
If I have an abortion how does that affect your life.
Babies die naturally and unnaturally every day. Are you in a perpetual state of grievance over it?

Does a man that abuses his wife affect your personal life?

Does a man that violently rapes a women affect your personal life?

How about someone murdering another person, does it affect your personal life?

Do you not understand that we can all be concerned about how we as a society treat an issue?

I really don't think it is a hard concept. And yes...it makes me sad knowing about all the babies that die...born and unborn...every single day. Does it shock you that someone actually has feelings? Just because you are cold hearted and have no loving feelings towards babies...doesn't mean others don't.

Your remarks about the act of putting down a sick pet are thoughtless. It is obvious that you have never had a pet that was in great pain. I can tell you that it will tear your heart out. You are in a double bind. You must bear the pain of seeing your beloved pet suffer as well as the pain of knowing that to end the pain it must die. Tell me that you could stand by and hear it cry hour after hour. You would just let it suffer until its body could not handle it anymore?

And your above statements prove that is just a selfish act. YOU couldn't stand to hear it cry hour after hour. You could drop a ton of money on medical care to make it comfortable...maybe even fix what is broken. But it is EASIER and CHEAPER for you to kill it (read SELFISH).

You can lie to yourself all you want...but it is a selfish act in the end. Owning a pet in the first place is a selfish act. I bet you had your pet spayed or neutered...right? 100% cruel and selfish act...you take away the ONE GOAL all life has...to reproduce. And it is done because people are selfish.

Originally posted by MindSpin
Which legal actions can someone else take to harm or kill your unborn child???

Ask Robert Blake.

Any action your lawyer can get you off on. "Accidentally" pushing your pregnant lover down stairs seems to be a popular one. In his case it was a gunshot wound.

You keep saying they exist...but I have yet to hear you give an example.

I guess you missed it the last time I said that it was determined in court. That seems pretty self explanatory. A good lawyer and that law do not run in the same circles. You can say shooting someone is illegal all you like. Who went to jail for shooting Bonnie Bakely then?

On the other hand...women can legally kill a man's child. You would think you would be outraged by that fact...but it appears you aren't.

Why should I be upset about a man impregnating a woman he does not know that well? Keep it in your pants or it is your own damn fault. Why do you men feel like you should get to stick it anywhere you please and women should just deal with that. It is really easy. If you are so against abortion. Do not impregnate someone who does not agree. Maybe have a little chat before you have sex. Exchange last names and such. Is that too moral?

reply to post by Kailassa

Third trimester abortions are not something the average pregnant woman would want. You get attached to your foetus in more ways than one, as it grows and you hear its heartbeat and feel it kicking.

However they should be legal in certain circumstances, such as when a doctor decides continued pregnancy is endangering the mother's life or will seriously affect her long-term health.

At the third trimester, an emergency C-section is a valid alternative to an abortion. At that point, with medical attention, the baby can survive or at least have a fighting chance.

So I don't believe there are any reasons for a third trimester abortion.

Ethically, this is similar to separating cojoined twins when one knows the separation will or may kill one, but it's known that the cojoined twins will not be capable of a healthy life together.

Both situations are tragedies, but the decision must be left to qualified doctors and the parents.

The separating of cojoined twins is no different than any surgery...there is always a risk the patient may die...always.

I don't know of any cases of cojoined twins where a decision is made to outright kill one of them to allow the other one live. I may be wrong, but I don't think that is ethical or legal.

One reason I'm in favour of free, easy to obtain legal abortions is so the issue of late abortions rarely comes up. When someone close to me was raped, she was able to have an abortion 4 weeks later. Even then it was a sad event.

I only know one person on ATS who is actually pro abortion. That poster scornfully refers to parents as "breeders" and sees no problem with abortion at any stage. However most of us who argue for the right to legal abortion see it as a very sad choice which is only made because, at times, it is the lesser of two evils.

Killing a human life is never a solution to a hardship of life.

Killing a baby is never the "lesser of two evils"...it IS THE EVIL. What would be the "greater evil" in your situation?

I am sorry your friend was raped, the criminal who did so should be in prison for life, but two wrongs don't make a right. Let's think about it...the rapist first violated her sexually, physically, and mentally. And now he is indirectly FORCING her to kill a baby. Now she has to live with the fact that she has killed a baby her whole life. She let the rapist dictate her actions and now has the death of a baby on her hands and the guilt of that will rest on her shoulders for her entire life. I don't see how that is the "lesser of two evils"...your friend turned from victim to killer. It may sound harsh...but that is mine, and many others, opinion of your friend now.

I have raised three children, mostly on my own, in very difficult circumstances. I know what's involved and how difficult it is to bring up children on your own, on a very limited income, to be well adjusted capable adults. Anti-abortionists don't give a damn what this does to the life of the women or her children. The worst nastiness and contempt I've had to endure has been from the same people who demonstrate outside family planning clinics against abortion. They are the people who sneak in through the back door when they want abortions themselves.

Life is hard...it is hard for all of us. Some choose to take an easy way out (by literally killing their responsibility) and some choose to be a responsible person.

That is the difference I see between single moms and those that choose abortion...responsibility.


And your last example...that is 100% hyperbole...unless you have some facts to back up that statement

Originally posted by Annee
reply to post by 44247844

 

Just want to mention - - that since I believe everything is energy - - that we are "energy beings" - - and physical is a thought creation. I have to put myself into - - what is an unnatural mindset for me - - to discuss this from a physical realm others believe is real. I hope that makes sense to you.

So if you truly believe we are "energy beings"...then you should have no problem with murder...right?

Rape and violence also really shouldn't be an issue...anything physical shouldn't matter to "energy beigns"...right?

Originally posted by SevenBeans
I quoted every word of your post in my reply.

I know you did but you scoffed at the argument before you even got to that part. I am not sure why the two of you think quoting someone word for word negates the parts of the post that you write. You both know you are writing in your responses don't you? Maybe not?

Decapitating your wife is illegal.

Please tell me what difference that makes if you get away with it.

Beating people (including pregnant people) is illegal.

What does "illegal" mean if you avoid charges? What id no one presses charges? I guarantee you everyone on this thread has broken a law this week of some kind. There are all kinds of laws about all kinds of things. When you are either dismissed or never even arrested, what diffference it make.

Is dealing with reality making this difficult for you guys? It seems rape and domestic abuse really get in the way or your "arguments."

Do guilty people sometimes get away with crime? Obviously.

So that whole "it's illegal" thing is what? About how guilty they will feel for getting away with it?

What I said is that no one can intentionally abuse or kill your unborn offspring without breaking the law. Only men know what it's like for someone else to intentionally abuse or kill their offspring (and for it to be perfectly legal, IE. for society not to care at all).

I know what you said and it is just as incorrec this time as it was the last time and when your partner tried it as well. You will notice that is why the argument actually changed on the next page.

We have to worry about women going into surgery for the sole purpose of killing our offspring and throwing it in the garbage.

Because you are impregnating random strangers with all your moral superiority?

If my wife goes into surgery for a tumor while she's pregnant, I certainly will be worried about the unborn baby.

But according to your argument, she will not be. Got it.

People die in accidents all the time, if you don't understand the difference between an honest to goodness accident, and intentional killing, this conversation is pointless.

I stongly believe the only way to make that thought work in your head, you have to be male. If I were to lose my child do the actions of another person, their intentions would factor in very little.

No... I'm sure that women do worry about an accident causing miscarragie etc. etc. (so do I as a Father).

You mean just like I said they do?

Originally posted by SevenBeans
Why?

This whole "playing dumb" routine wears really thin really fast. If I have to explain yet again that men cannot be impregnated then I fear for the people under your guidance. I hope you let someone else do the birds and bees talk.

Men cannot get pregnant. This is an important detail to familiarize yourself with as it comes into play in many parts of life, including discussing abortion.

It's perfectly legal for a woman to kill our unborn offspring.

I guess if you are impregnating the types of girls that will get an abortion then you have already surrendered your moral high ground and should just be happy that is the only punishment reigned down upon you considering yout fornification.

I don't think my wife would ever have an abortion, but the truth is it's impssible to know.

Oh no. Are you saying that men CONSTANTLY LIVE IN FEAR that the women they impregnate will go abort it? That seems a little crazy. Have you met your wife?

Any woman could have an abortion regardless of what they say beforehand and throw a man's unborn offspring in the trash for whatever reason she wants, no matter how stupid (and our legal system will sanction her action).

What kind of woman would do something like that? Is that the kind of woman you married? You seem to have quite the mysoginist viewpoint which makes sense given this topic and your gender. If you are not sure your wife would not abandon your baby in a trash can, they you did a really crappy job picking a wife.

So I am crazy for acknowledging women can be impregnated against their will through rape but it makes perfect sense to just assume every woman, including your own wife, might dump her baby in a trash can.

I am seeing too many similarities between the posts written by you and mindspin. Perhaps you two can get together and consolodate your misconceptions.

I have to ask you as well. Are you tring to convince anyone anything or are you just trying to yell about what you think?

How does it seem to be working for you so far?

reply to post by Sinnthia

Refute what you just hit reply to.

Nice dodge...I'll just repeat it so you can dodge it once again.

Refute that human life begins when human sperm fertilizes a human egg and cell division begins.

Go ahead...refute the basis of Biology.

I understand the difference but I am not sure that you do since your reasoning continues to waver between varying definitions. I kind of wish you did have a playbook so we could get something consistent to hold onto.

My position has been crystal clear throughout this thread. Shall I repeat it again?

Human life is purely a biological process. This biological process has a distinct starting point and a distinct ending point. The begining point of "human life" is the point at which the human sperm fertilizes the human egg, a complete and unique DNA is formed (unique from the mother or father) and cell division begins. The ending point is when the cell division process ends. The time between the starting point and ending point is HUMAN LIFE. When something stops that process...we call it "killing"...when another human stops it with a pre-meditated mindset...it is "Murder".

I even put in some more detail for you...but it is still the exact same thing I have been saying. The only way for you to refute that position is to prove that human life DOESN'T start at conception. No one has done that...they have shifted goalposts by saying "life" is different than "human life" or "personhood". And they pick an arbitrary bodily function to set that criteria...most use brain waves....some use heart beat....some use nervous system...some use the ability to breath outside the womb. All of them are completely arbitrary and non-scientific...they are all philosophical arguments. And it puts them on a slippery slope because there are human adults that could then be classified as "non human" based on whatever criteria they decide to pick.

So please tell me...how exactly am I inconsistent?

Have you really? To me? In this conversation? I am not sure. I reply to what I am reading. Not what else you hope I read.

Well if you enter the conversation without knowing all the information...that is your problem. We aren't going to repeate everything we said just for your benefit....it is all written down....you can go read it for yourself. If you are too lazy to educate yourself as to what the current discussion consists of...then you will just continue to look foolish and clueless.

All value is relative and that is kind of a silly one to ask. One can easily introduce enough variables to argue either side successfully

Dodge...I'll ask again.

Do you value a gnat over a fetus? Simple question...try not to dodge again.

Nope but that does not mean home invasion rapes are not happening. I did not die in a house fire or have a sudden stroke any of those times either but that stuff happens as well. There is no safe deposit box for lady parts. Sorry.

Yeah let's compare instances of rape to death by metorite shall we. Got some numbers? When you go outside, how many meteorites do you think you walk past? I bet the number of penises is a little higher.

Doesn't matter...it is still a possibility.

You can live your life in a constant state of paranoia...that is up to you. I don't believe it is the norm for most women.

I would still suggest therapy if you are in a constant state of fear that you are going to be raped...that is not normal nor healthy.

Because men get raped just as often outside prisons right?

You are speaking of possibilities...not frequency....so yes it is a possibility. I'm sorry your example is foolish...trying to defend it is even moreso.

I said that I do not care about rapes that do not result in pregnancy? I thought we were talking about abortion. While you keep trying to pretend rape does not exist, I find it hard to understand what post menopausal or male on male rape has to do with abortion. Help me out. Men getting knocked up in jail now?

We were talking about abortion...and then you were talking about women are in constant fear of being raped...I had a little lol...and then you continued to defend your paranoid views after I called you on them. So now, me and you, are talking about how silly your examples are.

We can get back on topic...I would like that...we can start with you refuting the biological fact that life begins at conception.

I cannot speak any more clearly but you continue to grab on to the most extreme and bend it until it snaps as well as transfer the weight of your own argument from "principal" to "principal."

Please show me where I am changing my argument. I'd love you for you to.

But if you atually applied it logically to what I responded to, it would not seem as hyperbolic as it does now. Nice job.

Or you could try to convey your thoughts clearly and plainly. No one else in this thread has had a problem doing this. You seem to say one thing...but you come back and say you meant something else completely contrary to that.

For example:
You said: "WOMEN LIVE IN CONSTANT FEAR OF GETTING RAPED"
You come back and say you meant: "Rape is a possibility".

If you see those two statements as equal....then you are not thinking logically.

Abortion is still legal. How many did you stop today? I guess it does not really matter then whether or not you or anyone else here feels my opinion is at all valid then does it? You have an odd sense of self rightiousness for someone who spends more time online discussion abortion than doing anything to actually help get where you want.

My point is not to stop any abortions...that would be illegal.

My point is to show how illogical and contradictory pro-choice thinking is. To show that it is nothing more but justifications for killing babies so that women can ditch their own responsibility.

I am fighting against a flawed way of thinking...and it's fun watching pro-choicers run in circles trying to twist their arguments as to not admit that they are supporting the killing of a human life.

Ohhh. I am sorry.

I thought people that died in war and on death row were humans. I guess I got that wrong?

I do not support the death penalty. And I am against our current wars...I only believe in defensive wars. I have stated this many times in this thread if you took the time to read it...which you didn't.

You know exactly what I am saying. You say you care about all human life but you spend 14 hours a day just talking about abortion. You can start any racism thread you want here. Crying that you have not had the opportunity to discuss racism, war, or the death penalty on ATS in a month sounds like you just want no one to take you seriously.

No..I don't know exactly what you are saying...because you have this habit of not saying what you mean.

Yes...currently...I am talking about abortion. How does that mean that I only care about abortion??? Your logic is hilarious to me...you must live a very interesting and confusing life with this way of thinking.

I didn't start this thread...I have only started two threads...I would rather reply than start threads....OH no...that means I don't care about anything except the two topics I created threads on...LOL. :shk:

As far as being taken seriously...we are on ATS...you shouldn't really take anyone seriously.

Yeah because all I have mentioned was your post history. I have not discussed biology or abortion at all yet.

Yeah....so maybe you should get back on topic instead of stalking my posting history...creeper.

Refute what now? Are you asking me to prove something is NOT? Really? Because I said many of your arguments have been refuted but not that one and yet that is the one I am not charged with proving wrong?

My arguemnt is the biological definition of the beginning of life. No one has refuted that. If they have...it should be simple for you to go back in this thread and give me examples.

You can find my position at the top of this reply...go ahead...refute it.

Your agument is not winning anyone over. You are not actively doing anything to help your cause and you seem to lack the conviction of many of your base points. I am sorry but noticing the overwhelming level of insincerity is hard not do and it does make me question things.

Do you think what you are doing is helping?

Anytime now...you can refute anything in my argument. Or you can just continue focusing on ME...creeper...for real.

And cell clusters even worse? Just some sperm and just an egg alone not at all? Could you draw up a scale of the value of human life for us since you finally did admit, you value humans differently by age?

There is no scale...all human life has the same value. From starting point (conception) to ending point (death)...it all has the same value.

Are you honestly that confused? It is you and pro-choicers that place differing amounts of value on human life...not me.

Either remember that with every sperm you allow to go wasted, and every egg your wife fails to fertilize or else actually read my sentence again and respond to what I did say, not what you wish I said.

Sperm and egg is not new human life...go take a biology class...for your own good.

Bullcrap. You can offer to adopt. You can mentor, donate, take a bigger part in your community, help schools with local outreach programs. Promote programs like planned parenthood to help PREVENT unwanted pregnancies to begin with. Why do you act like the only option is to force a pregnant girl to have her baby? How about helping prevent unwanted pregnancies? There are ways to do that.

How would me adopting a kid prevent an abortion??? Do you honestly think that women that have abortions do it because there is no one to adopt their kid???

I'm all for using condoms to prevent unwanted pregnancies...but if that fails...tough...you have created life...take responsibility. Don't kill a human life to be selfish.

None of what you said will stop people from having abortions.

Try all you like...but you aren't going to get rid of me.

Appently it is much easier than actually doing anything.

How many babies you save today?
How many minds have you changed?

My goal isn't to stop abortions...like I said before...that is illegal. Preventing pregnancy isn't saving babies...it is preventing conception. That is not my goal.

I don't care if I changed anyones mind...as long as people like you continue to show yourself as delusional and have to continue to flip around on your position...I am happy.

Originally posted by Sinnthia
reply to post by MindSpin

 

Serious question here.

What are you more concerned about?

Preventing abortions or stopping wars?

Preventing abortions. Those that go to war can think for themselves and make their own decisions. Babies that are killed in abortion can not.

Preventing abortions or helping Project Innocence?

Preventing abortions. In the united states, it is estimated around 3500 babies are killed a day through abortion. How many wrongfully convicted criminals are killed every day???

Preventing abortions or making the future world one more people would want to have babies in?

I believe preventing abortion would create a future where more people would want to have babies.

And let's be clear...I don't care how many babies are born in a day...I'm concerned with how many are killed. If zero babies are killed, I wouldn't care if the birth rate was cut in half.

Preventing abortions or having your next meal?

I'm not concerend about my next meal at all...my position in life allows me to dismiss those concerns. So Preventin abortion still would take prescedence on my "concerned" scale.



I don't see the point of your questions.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
reply to post by MindSpin

 

MindSpin you speak of people running away but that isn't what is happening, they simply get tired of typing the same thing over and over, like myself i replied to you, answered your questions and you basically repeated the same questions as a reply. So then i had to type the same replies just in a different way.

It gets very tiresome and is ultimately pointless to continue with such a person.

I would like to add, aside from the fact that trying to discuss this with you, Mindspin, is much like a broken carousel ride, many of us do not have 14 hours a day to spend on ATS. Many do not have a fraction of that time. Many people get up from their computers and contribute to LIFE. As well, many of us just do not find the topic of Abortion so much fun to discuss ALL DAY, EVERY DAY; especially with MEN desperatetly grasping to fantasy view of a world where women only have abortions because they are amoral sluts and your penis is defenseless against against them

Oh yeah and

Originally posted by MindSpin
Wikipedia can be a 100% credible source...or it can be complete crap.

Wikipedia is never 100% credible as a source because it is not a source just like a library is not a source. Any good high school teacher should explain "citations" to you. Ask around. Do not take this the wrong way. I just really feel like you might actually be able to get somewhere on this with at least a little information to play with.

Originally posted by MindSpin
reply to post by geekyone

 

We got to this point because they have run out of arguments.

So they fall back on sensationalism.

Actually, you brought us here. You keep arguing about the unborn child's rights and the father's rights but you have done your very best to dismiss any rights the MOTHER has. So can you please lay out the heiarchy for us?

From rights most deserving of respect, you would rank Baby, Father, Mother?
Help me out.

Originally posted by MindSpin
But I gave you a scenario of a women killing her one week old baby...

If you can't make a judgement on that...that is just very disturbing.

Aren't you supposed to be playing the part of a Christian?

reply to post by Sinnthia

Ask Robert Blake.

Any action your lawyer can get you off on. "Accidentally" pushing your pregnant lover down stairs seems to be a popular one. In his case it was a gunshot wound.

I don't know who Robert Blake is. When you make obscure references...it helps when you provide some information.

We aren't asking about what a lawyer can get someone off with...we are asking what action is LEGAL for them to harm your unborn child???

I guess you missed it the last time I said that it was determined in court. That seems pretty self explanatory. A good lawyer and that law do not run in the same circles. You can say shooting someone is illegal all you like. Who went to jail for shooting Bonnie Bakely then?

If someone is found innocent for a crime...that doesn't make the crime legal to commit. It means the prosecution couldn't prove that the individual commited the crime. No court has said "it is legal to murder in this case".

You used OJ Simpson before as an example. The court found him not guilty (not innocent), and no where did it say it was legal for someone to kill Nicole Brown...that is still illegal...all the trial determined is that they couldn't PROVE that OJ did it.

Do you see the difference???? Saying an individual is not guilty does not mean that the action he was accused of is legal. Basic logic here.

Why should I be upset about a man impregnating a woman he does not know that well? Keep it in your pants or it is your own damn fault. Why do you men feel like you should get to stick it anywhere you please and women should just deal with that. It is really easy. If you are so against abortion. Do not impregnate someone who does not agree. Maybe have a little chat before you have sex. Exchange last names and such. Is that too moral?

I think it is hilarious that you think the above makes any sense.

Current law allows a wife to legally abort the husbands child...no matter how well they know each other.

Do you also tell women to keep their pants on, or it's their own damn fault too? Most abortions aren't due to rape, so the sex was consented by both parties. And yet only the women has another choice after the fact.

That is an equality issue.