Abortion, Genocide, what’s THE difference?!?!?!?!?.... do you condone murder???

Originally posted by MindSpin
I'm trying really hard to understand what you mean by the above comment...but I am having a very hard time.

I am not sure I can simplify it any more than it already is.

Do you not think men should have a say or opinion on the matter of abortion???

I believe that until men have to fear being raped and impregnated against their will, their "opinion" on the matter is well....I guess interesting? Not really of much value.

Do not confuse joy with passion.

Do not pretend "Yay" is a cry of joyless passion.

reply to post by Sinnthia

I am not sure I can simplify it any more than it already is.

My confusion lies in that you said the "best thing", which implies a positive...best = good...and then you go on to make a negative comment.

For example: The best part of rapist is the joy they get in commiting their crime.

The statement just doesn't make sense...which is where my confusion came in.

I believe that until men have to fear being raped and impregnated against their will, their "opinion" on the matter is well....I guess interesting? Not really of much value.

The reason for an abortion is only "rape" for a very very small percentages of cases.

So for you to base the value of opinions soley on the cases of rape isn't very logical.

And what of women who aren't living in "fear of being raped"??? Please, you are guilty of what others are doing in this thread...making women look like helpless little victims.

I think rape is disgusting, I think rapist should be locked up for life. But using a small percentages of abortions to try to dictate the entire discussion is a result of emotions and being very narrow minded in your views.

Men are humans too. Male humans get killed during abortions just as much as female humans do. I think men's opinions are just as valid as womens are on the subject.

Equality right??? Or are you not a fan of equality??? Maybe you like getting paid less as a female for the same work as men do...huh???

Do not pretend "Yay" is a cry of joyless passion.

I'm happy someone finally stopped lying to themselves and admitted that life starts at the moment of conception.

I'm happy when ignorance is abandoned in favor of logic and science.

Guilty as charged.

Originally posted by mrphilosophias
Murder a pregnant women and its double homicide, but abortion is ok?
What is the difference between a Human Being and a Human Person?
Why is there any reason to try to differentiate them except to justify something like abortion? This seems like a form of self seeking false logic, rationalization and justification, it is denial, and it is blind to the truth.

Because an abortion is almost always a decision by the woman carrying the fetus, it's not murder.

The human being/human person debate is a philosophical one. I have no doubt that the fetus will most likely develop into a human being, so don't think that I'm minimizing the impact of an abortion.

what about cannibalism? issei sagawa killed and ate a woman and then after time spent in a psych hospital he was out free. they made a movie about it. did you know that if dogs give stillbirth they'll eat the aborted fetus(s)? cats too. saying that abortion is an act of genocide is is an oxymoron and unnatural. if any free country recognizes abortion as an act of genocide then we give up our personal freedom. if parents are more open and take responsibility for their own children, they can relate to them the importance of safe sex, rape prevention, drugs and alcohol, human rights, but no we're all too busy to be responsible parents.

I don't want to offend anyone (anti-abortionists) by saying this. I'm trying to figure out in whose behalf you're speaking for.

1. You think the whole world and time is going to stop just so they can cast a stone at woman who decides to abort her own potential offspring?

2. Are you speaking for the dead baby? Maybe they are screaming "let me live!!" and all that, but you'll never really know will you or be able to prove it. Ok, yes it's human and it's life, but some of you only feel passionately towards just "human" life like you have the right to dictate on why it should continue or discontinue its existence.

3. Whatever comes out the va jay-jay is the responsibility of the va jay-jay and the va-jay-jay owner.


I'm currently reading this book by Ann Fessler titled The Girls Who Went Away. Fessler discusses the hidden history of women who had to surrender their children for adoption in the decades before Roe vs Wade. Young girls and women struggle with decisions like that all the time and how some of you can so easily throw around the word "murderer" is ridiculous. What do wish to do? Throw her in jail? Pretty soon a woman may not have the rights to get her own ovaries clipped by what I've read.

Originally posted by Sinnthia
I believe that until men have to fear being raped and impregnated against their will, their "opinion" on the matter is well....I guess interesting? Not really of much value.

I cared for the well-being of my offspring long before they were born, I think most men do...

Until women have to fear another person abusing or even killing their unborn offspring for absolutely any reason (and the law not caring), their "opinion" on the matter is well... I guess interesting?

reply to post by grahag

Because an abortion is almost always a decision by the woman carrying the fetus, it's not murder.

Well if that is the logic you are choosing to use, then I guess you think abortions at 8 and 9 months are ok. Because the mother is still carrying the human fetus. Right???

The human being/human person debate is a philosophical one. I have no doubt that the fetus will most likely develop into a human being, so don't think that I'm minimizing the impact of an abortion.

First of all...it will ALWAYS devlope into a human. A human fetus has never developed into a dog nor any other organism...always a human.

Second, this SHOULDN'T be a philosophical debate. That is the problem. If you want this to be a philosophical debate...go debate it with a religious person...personal philosophy vs personal philosophy.

Philosophy is SUBJECTIVE.

Which is why we should use OBJECTIVE SCIENCE. Biology has a perfect and accurate definition of LIFE. It doesn't only apply to humans, it applies to ALL LIFE.

This is why we should use it...because it is objective and 100% accurate. If you want to dispute the biological definition of life...please do so.

Originally posted by Freenrgy2

Originally posted by Darkmask
reply to post by geekyone

 

A baby doesn't NEED to be breast fed, an embryo needs to live off of a woman's body. Sorry your statement fails

Ah, but your logic would have failed you a hundred years ago. Medical science and food research has allowed breast feeding to become a want rather than a need.

So, for all of those hundreds/thousands of years that women breastfed, then I would say your statement fails. Of course, abortions were nearly unheard of. Isn't modern science grand!

edit on 2
4-2-2011 by Freenrgy2 because: (no reason given)

Abortions have been around almost as long as birth has. And modern science IS awesome. Anyone who disagrees can go back to their 20 year lifespan before science helped lengthen that...

Originally posted by MindSpin
Ah yes...the ever so popular dismissal and self declaration winner while running away tactic. Always satisfying.


Have a good day.

Okay, one last reply because you're crazy. I have a job. I don't get paid to debate on the internet, you must. I guess you're a master-debater.

I didn't dismiss anything, declare myself the winner, or run away. I have to get real work done. You must be a little kid pretending to be an adult. We're all just expressing our opinions here kid, there is nothing to "win". I said we'd agree to disagree, since we've both stated our opinions and it's obvious we aren't going to agree. So, that's that. Run along now, I think I hear the ice cream man.

reply to post by Constance888

1. You think the whole world and time is going to stop just so they can cast a stone at woman who decides to abort her own potential offspring?

I think any human who murders another human should be punished. I'm not biased against women killing their own children...I'm against all murderers.

2. Are you speaking for the dead baby? Maybe they are screaming "let me live!!" and all that, but you'll never really know will you or be able to prove it. Ok, yes it's human and it's life, but some of you only feel passionately towards just "human" life like you have the right to dictate on why it should continue or discontinue it's existence.

I am speaking for myself, I am also speaking about the human species and the protection of all human life.

Look...you too just admitted that it is "human" and that it is "life"...so what justification do you have for any human ending the life of another human???

I am only concerned about human life...most of our laws are designed to protect human life...because that is our species and we should protect our own species.

There are laws that protect other species as well, I don't disagree with those laws, I don't have an issue with those laws, but I don't really care about them too much. My concern is with humans.

3. Whatever comes out the va jay-jay is the responsibility of the va jay-jay and the va-jay-jay owner.

You can say vagina, it is a medical term, nothing icky about it.

What about what comes out of the penis??? Is it the responsibility of the penis owner??? Because part of that baby came out of the penis.

Do you agree?

reply to post by grahag

Abortions have been around almost as long as birth has. And modern science IS awesome. Anyone who disagrees can go back to their 20 year lifespan before science helped lengthen that

The only people I see who are ignoring modern science are the pro-choicers that refuse to acknowledge basic Biology and the definition of life it provides.


There has been lots of barbaric customs that have been around since the beginnings of civilization...but we have evolved and have become aware that those practices are not good. Sacraficing virgins, sacraficing anyone really, slavery, etc.

The fact that abortion has been being practiced for a long time doesn't mean it should be an acceptable practice.

Originally posted by MindSpin
My confusion lies in that you said the "best thing", which implies a positive...best = good...and then you go on to make a negative comment.

I am sorry that you are confused by the fact that the best thing I can find about pro-life men on these boards happens to be a negative comment. I hope eventually you will understand what that says about where you all set your own bar.

For example: The best part of rapist is the joy they get in commiting their crime.

The statement just doesn't make sense...which is where my confusion came in.

No, your statement does not make sense at all. I can see how imagining things I did not say that are extremely poor analogies to try and justify what was obviously a dig at a certain type would confuse you thought. It is best not to muddy your mind up with imaginary flies to swat at. It just keeps you busy, accomplishing nothing but expending a great deal to do it.

The reason for an abortion is only "rape" for a very very small percentages of cases.

I said nothing of abortion in the case of rape. I specifically pointed to living in fear that you may be raped and impregnated against your will. This is not a rare circumstance. This is a part of the reality of being a woman, EVERY MOMENT OF OUR LIVES. We do not get to pick and choose when we might get raped and impregnated. I am pretty sure it would happen a lot less if we had that kind of choice in the matter. This is a very real circumstance of being a female that no man will ever know. Got that?

So for you to base the value of opinions soley on the cases of rape isn't very logical.

Probably not. Perhaps that is why I did no such thing.

And what of women who aren't living in "fear of being raped"??? Please, you are guilty of what others are doing in this thread...making women look like helpless little victims.

Who are these women that are immune to rape?

I think rape is disgusting, I think rapist should be locked up for life. But using a small percentages of abortions to try to dictate the entire discussion is a result of emotions and being very narrow minded in your views.

Perhaps you should read my post a few times over before responding so that you do not have to shift goal posts so far in order to make your case. You are arguing against a point I did not make. My response was to what you said. This response is apparently to what you wish I had said. Nice try though.

Men are humans too. Male humans get killed during abortions just as much as female humans do. I think men's opinions are just as valid as womens are on the subject.

Then let those men opine on the matter. You shhhh for now.

Equality right??? Or are you not a fan of equality??? Maybe you like getting paid less as a female for the same work as men do...huh???

Really? That is your argument? I cannot claim that women and men are different? You give birth to a baby you never asked to have and get back to me on that equality thingy.

I'm happy someone finally stopped lying to themselves and admitted that life starts at the moment of conception.

I'm happy when ignorance is abandoned in favor of logic and science.

Guilty as charged.

You are giddy discussing abortion. You have filled up page after page of this thread with your supposed "pro-life" stance yet a cursury glance at your post history shows no such vigor to opine on the matters of unjust wars or capital punishment. Clearly your main focus is not the preciousness of life but just talking about abortion. I am actually have a dog in this fight and I realize what a personaly and deeply individual matter that it is. For that reason, I usually remain on the periphery of the topic.
Yet here you are "Yays" and all, going on and on and on and on and on. Real live people die every day for many reasons. Abortion is not the number one cause of death. If it is not just some sadistic zeal to dictate to women your phallocentric opinion on what other people should do with their lives and a real concern for the sanctity of life, I am sure your post history will begin to reflect that.
Good luck and may your god be with you on that.

Or...sit here and argue with women about abortion for another 40 pages and prove my poorly framed personal assumptions correct. Who am I to dictate.

Originally posted by SevenBeans
I cared for the well-being of my offspring long before they were born, I think most men do...

Good for you. That is quite admirable to hear you announce here that you cared about the baby you had created. KUDOS!

Until women have to fear another person abusing or even killing their unborn offspring for absolutely any reason (and the law not caring), their "opinion" on the matter is well... I guess interesting?

edit on 25-2-2011 by SevenBeans because: (no reason given)

What is that supposed to even mean? My point is that women can be raped and impregnated against their will while men cannot. What the hell did you just try to write?

reply to post by 27jd

Okay, one last reply because you're crazy.

LOL...nothing like a good ol' ad hoc to start off your post.

I have a job.

Hey....me too.

I don't get paid to debate on the internet, you must.

Nope, neither do I. I'm just a good multi-tasker...and to be honest...work is too boring to keep me engaged all day long sitting at my desk...so I need a little extra stimulation.

I guess you're a master-debater.

Sounds like a joke a child would make...wouldn't it be funny if you turned around and called me a kid

I didn't dismiss anything, declare myself the winner, or run away. I have to get real work done.

Yeah...you kind of did.

And good...go do your work...then if you still have anything rational to add to this debate...come back when you are done. I don't believe I remember anyone setting any time limits.

I think someone is making excuses :shk:

You must be a little kid pretending to be an adult.

Oh look...you did call me a little kid. More accusations and strawmen...you really need to work on this.

We're all just expressing our opinions here kid, there is nothing to "win". I said we'd agree to disagree, since we've both stated our opinions and it's obvious we aren't going to agree. So, that's that. Run along now, I think I hear the ice cream man.

You are really trying to sell this strawman...this is an extra special strawman.

Do I have to point out that you are again trying to dismiss my arguments and points by calling me a kid??? Or is that obvious???


Run along now...go get your "work" done

Originally posted by Sinnthia
What is that supposed to even mean? My point is that women can be raped and impregnated against their will while men cannot.

Yes and that's a really great point, as if anyone doesn't already know that...

My point is simple.

As a woman you don't understand what it's like knowing that another person can abuse or kill your unborn offspring for absolutely any stupid reason that enters their head.

At least rape is illegal. I'd rather be raped than have my unborn baby thrown in the trash.

Originally posted by Freenrgy2
I truly hate these threads.

You simply can't have a debate. This is an extremely polarizing issue and every little statement is either taken or intended to be a personal attack. Religion is almost immediately brought up and you have attacks based on those beliefs. Then, the atheist/agnostic crowd start preaching about those religious nuts pushing their beliefs down their throats. Arrg.
If you want to believe that its fine to abort, then go right ahead and think that way. I won't stop you. But, I should have the right to not have my taxes go to it if I don't believe in it. I would gladly divert those tax dollars to agencies specializing in foster care and adoption. And, I don't believe the pro-life crowd should try to force their beliefs down your throat.

edit on 24-2-2011 by Freenrgy2 because: (no reason given)

A debate includes a point of view from both sides with arguments for each side. It usually includes common sense reasons for each. "Because I believe it's murder" is not a common sense reason as it doesn't explain WHY people think it's murder. In SOME places it IS considered Murder, but in most of the civilized world it's considered legal to a point. So if you do think it's murder, you're definitely siding with the majority of third world countries on that opinion.

You think forced sterilization is okay? Who gets to decide that? Can I decide that for someone else? That would be awesome, because all that tax money that I spend to support other people's children could be used for other things that are more important. It's a great idea until someone ELSE gets to decide for you. So THAT is the problem with other people's ideas on abortion. It's not YOUR right to determine someone else's destiny. Up to a certain point, abortion is legal because that fetus will probably not survive outside it's mother and the mother gets to decide if she wants to allow that. I don't agree with abortion but it's not MY decision to make.

I like debates, but only when both sides are equally informed and willing to listen to reason and don't devolve into insulting the other's viewpoint. I see lots of nitpicking happen, which is the start to the devolution of the debate, but we all have opinions and at the very least, when someone is irrational, it points out who I can safely ignore.

reply to post by Sinnthia

I am sorry that you are confused by the fact that the best thing I can find about pro-life men on these boards happens to be a negative comment. I hope eventually you will understand what that says about where you all set your own bar.

I set my bar with an argument that no one is able to refute...I have even gotten a few people to admit to the fact that Human Life begins at conception.

You can refute it if you like...apparently the bar is set so low...it should be no problem at all for you

This is a part of the reality of being a woman, EVERY MOMENT OF OUR LIVES. We do not get to pick and choose when we might get raped and impregnated.

Maybe you need some therapy...because you shouldn't be afraid to be raped EVERY MOMENT OF YOUR LIFE.

You may have some psychological issues you need to work out...it's not healthy to live in constant fear.

This is a very real circumstance of being a female that no man will ever know. Got that?

I just asked my wife...she is a female...she laughed at you...sorry.

This may be very real for you...but you need to work that out for yourself...most women don't live in constant fear of getting raped. Like I said, you may want to get some therapy. This is not an insult, it is sincere advice out of concern for your mental state.

Who are these women that are immune to rape?

Immune...nah. But not living in constant fear. My wife knows how to handle herself, she has taken self defense and martial arts...she doesn't live in constant fear but understands that there may be a time where she may need to defend herself.

Do you think people get raped all the time...just grocery shopping or something???

Like I said...seek help.

Perhaps you should read my post a few times over before responding so that you do not have to shift goal posts so far in order to make your case. You are arguing against a point I did not make. My response was to what you said. This response is apparently to what you wish I had said. Nice try though.

You are a very confusing individual.

Then let those men opine on the matter. You shhhh for now.

Let the male babies that died during an abortion share their opinion????

Hmmmm

Really? That is your argument? I cannot claim that women and men are different? You give birth to a baby you never asked to have and get back to me on that equality thingy.

I noticed you didn't answer the question.

Are you for equlity or not???

I will continue to express my opinion...you can't silence me...sorry.

You are giddy discussing abortion. You have filled up page after page of this thread with your supposed "pro-life" stance yet a cursury glance at your post history shows no such vigor to opine on the matters of unjust wars or capital punishment.

I'm sorry...I didn't realize I needed a certain resume and post history to be passionate about a topic.

I have already stated...I am against unjust wars and I am against the death penalty. Sorry I haven't posted to your satisfaction on those topics...but you know what...I don't care. If that is the best argument you have against me...that is pretty weak.

Clearly your main focus is not the preciousness of life but just talking about abortion. I am actually have a dog in this fight and I realize what a personaly and deeply individual matter that it is. For that reason, I usually remain on the periphery of the topic.

Clearly huh???

My main focus is on one thing...protecting human life. And you know what...I have a "dog in this fight" as well...my fellow humans are being slaughtered at an alarming rate...and mostly because they are an inconvienence to the poor excuses of humans that they got stuck with as their "mother".

Yet here you are "Yays" and all, going on and on and on and on and on. Real live people die every day for many reasons. Abortion is not the number one cause of death. If it is not just some sadistic zeal to dictate to women your phallocentric opinion on what other people should do with their lives and a real concern for the sanctity of life, I am sure your post history will begin to reflect that.

No...abortion is not the number one cause of death....neither is death by violent rape...but I don't think we should ignore either just because they don't take the number one spot.

My post history will reflect my interests, which will not be dictated by you...sorry.

Good luck and may your god be with you on that.

There go the pro-choicers trying to inject religion into the debate again.

Do you guys get a playbook on what to do when you are desperately trying to justify the murder of babies???

Or...sit here and argue with women about abortion for another 40 pages and prove my poorly framed personal assumptions correct. Who am I to dictate.

At least you are able to admit your assumptions are poorly framed...kudos.

Originally posted by SevenBeans
Yes and that's a really great point, as if anyone doesn't already know that...

Many posters here have made it clear that even if they do understand this, it does not matter to them. That is not acceptable. You say you got it. Good.

My point is simple.

As a woman you don't understand what it's like knowing that another person can abuse or kill your unborn offspring for absolutely any stupid reason that enters their head.

What????????????????????????????????

As a woman, there is no chance that someone else could cause something to happen to me that might harm my unborn child that will not be found illegal?

WHAT?????????????????????????????????????

So women never have to worry about their baby being "accidentally" aborted by a perfectly legal medical mistake or "accidental harm" cause by say a boyfriend not thrilled with the baby? What planet are you on??????????????

reply to post by SevenBeans


Why in the world would any man have sex with a woman without first knowing her views on abortion? If you don’t know what your partner’s answer to the abortion question might be, then why would you have sex? Especially if abortion is something you feel so strongly about.

Honestly, I think those are valid questions.

reply to post by MindSpin


I couldn't help but seeing the pattern here. Anyone who disputes your theories, has something negative said to them. Maybe this is why the govt doesn't care to listen to your theories.