Has the line been finally crossed in the USA

I am not blaming any group or anyone.

The simple fact is we do not make anything in America anymore. We don't want the pollution.

It's hard to argue that Unions have sent many companies overseas.

I am sure if I belonged to a Union I would feel different.


reply to post by ~Lucidity

Originally posted by whyamIhere
The simple fact is we do not make anything in America anymore. We don't want the pollution.

I simply refuse to argue with that statement.

Unfortunately what is being seen in the United States, is that reality that the days of the Unions, are slowly coming to an end. The contributions that many unions made for the average workers, can not be disputed, and at the time that the unions were needed, they filled a need. But, there is a time for everything, and the time and need for unions, in the government sector, is what is starting to wake people up to the drain on the local and state economies around the country. Many of the benefits that the union members enjoyed, is far higher than their counterparts in the private sector, along with the costs that the average tax payer has to pay, and with the state of the economy as it is, the questions are starting to come in. When a city is on the verge or has lost its credit rating, or even having to contemplate declaring bankruptcy. Raising taxes is not really feasible, as the money is not there, and there is a percentage of the state budget deficits, that range up into the billions, can be traced back to the pensions and benefits that are paid to union workers.
Would it matter, if say, the people who keeps the water or electric going, decided to go on strike, and your house and neighborhood was without water or electricity for as long as the strike was going? Or, for those with children, do you think it is fair for a teacher to lie about being sick, to be out protesting, and your child misses out on being taught? Many school districts often ask for money to pay for the increase in wages for the teachers, and that would include those teachers who are performing poorly, but due to the union contracts, can not be terminated for a poor performance.
The unions are no longer there to help the workers, as they once were, rather more and more, what the unions are seen and shown to be are more political arms, be it tools for a politician to gather votes, or to use the politician for gain. This is neither fair, nor should it be allowed, as they are also one of the largest lobbyist groups out there.
The public sector workers, those who are hired by the government should never be allowed to unionize, especially when it can affect the public, and the general safety of all. This would also include the police, fire department, teachers, nurses, and doctors, and they should follow more in the footsteps of the unions that represent the federal workers, where it is against the law to strike or walk off of the job.
As many polls are reflecting, the union and that sector of the public is in the minority. Many of the people are looking at the democratic leaders who are refusing to go in and do their job, as failing to uphold on their oaths to serve and represent their districts. While it may seem like the way to go, or a means to halt a bill, however, the question could be asked, would your job keep you on as an employee, if you walked off, in a refusal to do your job, would you still have that job? In most cases, the answer is no, so those who are out protesting, walking off of the job, and the legislators should be held to the same standards, and fired.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


You said a mouthful there my friend. We always are ready to attack the guy next door instead of the elite and slime ball politicians. I feel it stems from pure jealousy. If these same people who are yelling for breaking up unions were making the same "livable wage" they wouldn't be pointing the finger. Corporations and lawmakers are two peas in a pod. When will people wake up and place their anger where it belongs? We're in this situation because our lawmakers spend more than what they take in (both parties are guilty of this). Corporations will continue to whine and complain arguing they can't make a profit yet give their top executives multi-million dollar contracts. The worker is the key to any companies success.

reply to post by downtown436


Give me a break. It wasn't the unions that caused problems with Detroit. First they lost a lot of market share to Japanese and foreign automakers because of poor quality. They continued to ignore the market demand for quality automobiles throughout the 70's, 80's. Their main focus was to use cheap parts and rely on consumer repairs to reap increase profits off of replacement parts. Until they saw their market share dwindle and realized the Japanese markets were more consumer conscious, did they start focusing on automobiles quality based upon consumer demand. By that time it was too late. Too many consumers became loyal to foreign automakers. Their expenditures were also high due to the many lines of automobiles produced under the same name.

Originally posted by HoldTheBeans
The only ones I see complaigning are the union folks who don't have to pay doodly for their benefits or worry about losing their jobs like the rest of us do and turn around and pay these peoples salary and benefits with their tax dollars. The ones waking up are the folks who work all day and come home and watch these yahoos on TV screaming about being treated unfairly. Its quite ridiculous. The longer they keep it up the easier it will be to dispense of public sector unions where they don't belong in the first place.

That's because you all look at the issue from the wrong point of view. The ones waking up and working all day long are getting screwed. They are not being justily compensated for their efforts. It not that union workers get too much, it is the fact those most other workers get too little. If everyone got paid what they deserved their would be plenty of tax dollars to go around. Cut wages a nd you cut tax reciepts.People buy less and then you need less workers. I just wish you all would stop cutting off your arms to spite your wrists. The sooner you realize you are fighting against justice for yourselves the faster we can actually get to work solving the nations problems.

Edited to say: I thinkthis is indeed the spark

The line was crossed way in the 1800's but it's hard to see beyond the plank of your own eye.

Well I don't think they've gone over the line. I just think that everybody is so frustrated with the situation that they almost unwilling to give democracy a chance. That sounds messed up I know but in the Modern form of democracy the dems can't win this one really so they flee. So maybe they should start doing the right things. Besides the public unions are bloated and narrowminded. I may be all wet because I don't have any experience with public unions but from what I've seen they push for their own agenda which usually doesn't line up with the workers.

All I know is if you're a teacher making 90k a year (yes that's right-90k!!) and 66% of your students can't read properly- there's something very,very,very wrong with this picture and you should be back in the classroom doing what the taxpayers are paying you to do and not out protesting......

Originally posted by Skippy1138
All I know is if you're a teacher making 90k a year (yes that's right-90k!!) and 66% of your students can't read properly- there's something very,very,very wrong with this picture and you should be back in the classroom doing what the taxpayers are paying you to do and not out protesting......

On the other hand, what I see is teachers that are strangled by a government (province) mandated curriculum that often does not allow them to fail a student...damage to one's self esteem, no consideration for cultural and socio-economic factors and other such distractions. The teachers I know just want to teach, and not play games with government bureaucrats. School administration is also afraid of a fail rate as being a negative score for their school...so they just pass the problem on down the line until somebody actually tests the student. Talk to university administrators who have to sort out the debris.

I'd say blaming the teachers for the poor academic showing is as relevant as blaming the unions for the state's poor economic state. Others would call it pissing in your boot to keep your foot warm.

I personally blame the government for the problems. The government should bring all the blue collar jobs back! They have the ability to change the way things are. They could impose sanctions on any US based company who is out sourcing jobs. Make it impossible for them to make a profit by using tariff's and trade embargoes. Threaten to pull the citizenship of the board members. There are ways to make changes.

Originally posted by xyankee
I personally blame the government for the problems. The government should bring all the blue collar jobs back! They have the ability to change the way things are. They could impose sanctions on any US based company who is out sourcing jobs. Make it impossible for them to make a profit by using tariff's and trade embargoes. Threaten to pull the citizenship of the board members. There are ways to make changes.

How about ALL government purchasing on ALL levels goes to American firms, and any company registered off shore to avoid taxes is disqualified? Though I would include Canada as a free trade partner...we speeky the Engee and have lots of oil, not to mention the beer.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


First of all-we're not talking about universities....
Second-I don't know how they do things in Canada, but here if I was failing at my job 66% of the time and still making 90K-either I am getting paid way,way too much or I am failing miserably at my profession...
And let's talk about what kind of example these so-called "teachers" are setting for the children they are "teaching"- here they are on national TV getting fraudulent "sick passes" so they can stand outside and whine-aren't kids supposed to look up to teachers as a role model? And here they are on TV lying and committing fraud??

reply to post by Skippy1138


Teachers are not working with objects or material that don't have personalities, attitudes, and lack motivation like you have in industry. There is absolutely no comparison. There's a lot of baggage students bring to the classroom, drug addiction, abuse, homelessness, etc.... Students don't fall in order like an assembly line. Teachers are expected to be counselors, police officers, paper pushers and at the same time teach. Before you complain about teachers, spend a day in a high school classroom, and I guarantee your eyes will open to what most teachers face on a daily basis.

More than half of the addicts that enter drug rehabilitation are not rehabilitated. Does that mean these doctors didn't do their job? There are students out there that are simply not motivated to learn. The teacher today has no recourse to remove disruptive students from the classroom.

Originally posted by Skippy1138
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

 

First of all-we're not talking about universities....

When kids have been pushed through the public school system and get a free pass through the high school system, they quite often end up in university.
That's where the rubber hits the road, and any serious inadequacies soon become apparent. Hope this helps.

In a sense, we are following each other around in circles. As soon as someone decides to break the loop, all hell breaks loose.

Let,s look at the unionized Detroit and what that has spawned. Then let's look at Toyota, Honda, Kia, Nissan and others. Most are now made in America, with American workers, with american made parts, paying a better than average wage and producing a better than average vehicle. What is the difference,UNIONS. Now lets look at american school systems. Poor attendance, poor knowledge retention, poor test scores, poor discipline, and graduates that cannot read. Not to mention we spend more than any other country in the world on education per student. Other countries have no discipline issues, good test scores, better knowledge retention et.al. Again what is the difference? Unions.

Without a doubt there are other issues at play here, but one key is union organisation.

I do think it is comical how these union people rail about government spending and how that the government is the enemy, when thay are in fact the very people they rail against. If you work for the government you are part of the government problem. As to a living wage outside of a government union job where do you get a full pension,free healthcare, more than average holidays, annual pay raises without performance reviews, more than two weeks vacation, and the ability to walk off your job in protest? Please tell me,I would like to apply. The sickness is with the people, not the employer. If no one took a job with the IRS would they be able to do anything? Same goes for any other job.

There a literally hundreds of thousands of qualified people to teach our children currently looking for jobs, I say be thankful for what you have, tomorrow you might literally be one of them, and they might have your job.

respectfully

reluctantpawn

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


You hit the nail right on the head. Teachers are totally frustrated because their hands are tied. I don't know any teacher that doesn't want their students to perform at an above average level. Yet teachers are expected to lower their standards to accommodate political "statistics," or because the district doesn't want to lose funding based upon lower enrollment stats. The students at the high school level know this, and it's caused many unmotivated students to take advantage of it. Some will do the bare minimum just to pass a class! Federal and state law makers make these mandates in education, yet they never have researched the issues or observed the problems teachers and school districts face. It sounds good on paper, but it always ends up costing districts more money to implement and in the end hurts the student.

I love all this "the republicans are taking down the unions" talk...The only thing that the gov wants to do is have the unions pay 12% instead of 6% toward health care and have them also contribute to their own pensions!!!! What the hell is the big deal here...I myself am in a Union and i think what the gov is doing is great....Our debt is unsustainable, things like this NEED to be done!

Hi All,

Excuse me for jumping into your conversation. I read the title and was a little confused so I thought I would read up on your thoughts.
Who crossed what line?

I mean, did the Government cross the line when they declared bankruptcy and sold itself to the Crown Temple?
Did they cross the line when they created the United States Corporation in its place (not to be confused with Corporate America)? Did they cross the line when they, as a corporation, could no longer uphold the Law of the Land (Constitutional Law), enact the Law of Water(Statute Law) on land? Did the U.S.C. cross the line when they gave up all the backing of our money and converted it to worthless paper that another corporation (Federal Reserve, owned by the Crown Temple) dictates its worth? Did the U.S.C. cross the line when they enacted Birth Bonds in order to boost the credit of the Corporation and its stockholders.

or

Did the Media cross the line when they began sensationalizing things to draw the attention of the people away from what was really happening? Did the Media cross the line when they caused millions of people to "Freak" out due to alien invasion, while the above stated was passed into law? Did the Media cross the line when they started to dumb us down by printing/showing irrelevant information and corporate advertising? Did the Media cross the line when THEY decided who could publicly run for office and receive "Air Time"

or

Did the "Freedom Fighters" cross the line when they forever split Race, Sex, Religion, and Nationality from simply Human Rights?

or

Did the Unions cross the line when they ran out of basic Workers Rights, started nit picking for inconsequential things, instead of putting Workers Rights into Human Rights of fair wages for all?

or

Did the Teachers cross the line when they accepted the U.S.C. minimum mandates as their maximum teaching potential?

or

Did the people cross the line when they became "Sheeple", Giving the U.S.C. dictatorship instead of standing up for their Basic Human Rights?

I feel the line has already been crossed by everyone! It's just that a few of us are taking a step back and seeing the situation with new eyes.