James Carrion on MUFON and UFOs

I heard a really interesting interview on the ParaCast show last night [mp3]. They had James Carrion, former International Director of MUFON, on and were interviewing him about the recent shake-ups at MUFON and his beliefs on UFOs. He had some interesting things to say about the current leadership at MUFON. I have transcribed a few interesting parts of the interview. I did my best to quote it exactly. Although I removed parts, I have inserted ellipses wherever I removed text.

@56:03

James Carrion: ...Clifford Clift said, "Well the reason James left the organization was because he was seeking one truth and the MUFON board of directors was seeking a different truth. Which to me is astounding. What is the truth? ... Here we have an organization that claims that their mission is the scientific study of UFOs. Well there's only one truth and that's the truth that can proven through science."

Chris O'Brien: Okay but, the other point here is that you've become more skeptical of UFO reality is that something that really burned them a little bit? They seem to feel, "you know what, he's betraying us because he doesn't believe in ET."?

James: Absolutely...
...

James: I think the big issue here is that the MUFON board is a board of believers. They believe that UFOs are real. They don't have a terrestrial explanation they have an extra-terrestrial explanation.... These folks they are die-hard believers and you can't have a scientifically-based organization if your personal beliefs are going to get in the way.

While James may be bitter and throwing stones I have to agree. How can an organization remain objective if they manipulate their leadership to cater to a specific opinion?

@95:00

Chris: I really get a sense you've become in a sense more conservative and more skeptical over the entirety of the UFO phenomenon. Why don't you give us an idea of where your head is at? I mean you were there in the hot-seat of the largest and oldest civilian organization logging reports of UFOs and so you had a front line sort-of view on it. How has this altered your thinking?...

James: I think that over the years being in Ufology and especially when I was the international director of MUFON I was sort-of in observation mode just trying to understand what was going on, who was involved, what was happening, and the more I started to observe the more I got the feeling that what I was seeing was like a magic show in Vegas. Where you'd go and if you didn't know any better, that you were watching a magic show, you would be shocked to hell at what you were seeing on stage. And I think that's sort of the feeling that I was getting while I was in the organization, that it was a lot of smoke and mirrors. I wasn't seeing real hard scientific evidence. I was seeing a lot of deception. A lot of stories that never panned out. A lot of characters that never panned out. A lot of involvement by these, what i call the usual suspects. They seem to have one foot in the intelligence community and one foor in ufology. And trying to make it all add up; it just didn't. So I thought I'm going to start digging and doing my own research. And I did some original research that goes back all the way to 1947 when this phenomena started, at least in the public eye. And as I started doing my research what I thought was, "hey I've stumbled onto something here that's big." It's not alien related. It's humans deceiving humans on a grand scale. Something that goes right back to the very beginning of June and July of 1947.

It's too long to transcribe but he goes on to explain his belief that the current UFO phenomenon started as a military dis-information program based around Kenneth Arnold's sighting, The Maury Island incident, and finally Roswell. He believes the government was simply trying to convince the Russians that we had some new air-based weapons system when in truth there was no such technology. He also believes that over the years the UFO cover has continued to be used for various purposes, including cover for black projects, and training for information warfare on certain internet message boards.

@120:50

Chris: During your time at MUFON, James, did you ever see anything that would support the notion that we are being visited by non-human intelligences?

James: Um... Absolutely not. I've seen no evidence whatsoever of alien involvement.
...

Chris: So James from what you've seen, I mean you were sitting in the driver's seat there, what, 4, almost 5 years there. And you've been involved in... You're an ex-military member, I think you were an analyst, correct? You speak fluent Russian if I remember correctly?

James: Well not fluent. I was a signals intelligence analyst [garbled] ...
...

James: Well I think we're dealing with specifically intelligence agencies who are interested in information warfare and they're interested in psychological manipulation and I think actually the UFO field provides the perfect training ground for their operations. A prime example is what I've encountered over the last year or so of being at MUFON going up against some of these message boards like the the Open Minds forum and Above Top Secret where the UFO mythology is being pushed by a lot of folks who have no real backgrounds, a lot of folks who are just anonymous individuals who can go out and make whatever claims they like and what I find highly interesting, is, I've always thought, "well, what is the goal of this?" and I think I've sort-of figured out that we're the proving ground for information warfare techniques to be used in the wider world. For example I wrote a blog article about wikileaks and how I think wikileaks isn't what it pretends to be. I think there's an intelligence agency behind that and it's trying to build credibility and use it as conduit for dis-information and as a way to influence governments and I think that had it's start in the UFO world.

Interesting stuff. No alien-made UFOs, no aliens, and Above Top Secret is a training ground for information warfare.

Very interesting read.

It really makes you think about things. Im sure everyone is going to say James is a disinfo agent himself now...Im not sure what to think. I wonder what exactly happened internally in MUFON?

reply to post by ziggyproductions05


Probably so. I left that part in about him being in military intelligence because if I had taken it out I'm sure someone would claim I was a dis-informant.

I'd say he ain't far off the post there

The problem inherent in all those that want to believe that UFO's visit this earth, is much like the problem with those who believe that god created us and the earth. Mainly being that once you subscribe to this belief without evidence to prove it's existence and you're feet become embedded in the toxic goo, it's often harder to come out and say "I'm sorry, I was wrong and I had no real reason to believe other that which I could not explain", mainly due to the ridicule of those who were once close friends and sometimes even partners.

Take for example if you will...

A close friend of mine claims she sees spirits, that ouija boards are real and although her partner has gone along with her on times, mainly as he has no explanation of what was happening and no direct experience of what happened himself, he has said to me on occasions that although he's now less inclined to believe (probably my fault) he won't disturb the balance for fear of losing his partner and kids.


As much as I have little doubt that there are intelligent life forms out there, i'm hard pressed, to believe that we (this planet and it's inhabitants) would be firstly, noticeable through the vast expanse of space, and I also, don't have the need to think that we are special enough to warrant that. As humans we a tendency to believe we are special.....hopefully we'll find a planet with other humans, then we may be able to get over ourselves lol.

But I do enjoy a good forum, conspiracy theory, if not just to rub more claims out of the way so that others don't have to stumble and make the same mistakes others have done in the past.

interesting,
I will listen to the podcast.
with any organization it is good to have a mix of views.
I'm sure Carrion was like many of us, skeptics just wanting to see if there is any truth.
Even with his access to case files, there was none to convince him of ET.
And as we know there really hasn't been any solid outstanding undeniable evidence yet.

Originally posted by mysteryskeptic
Even with his access to case files, there was none to convince him of ET.

Yeah. I think that is real story here. He claimed there are something like 13,000 case files in the MUFON database. And out of all that there is nothing to convince him. Although he does state that in his opinion the case files are very inconsistent about determining the identity (and thus credibility) of the witnesses. So pretty much anybody can claim to be someone else and make a sighting report and in general no one at MUFON would question the person's identity.

Seems like he's just going though a freaked-out phase where he's properly beginning to realise the types of things the government get up to. I think what he's saying about the psyops stuff will be right, but also that there's still unexplainable events going on as well. Some will be military, some will be plain disinfo, but others won't be explainable. Hopefully he'll realise that at some point and not think it's all the governments doing. Kind of like Denethor staring at the Palantir for too long in LOTR, he's not seeing things properly.

Or maybe he's right, but wow, that would suck unbelievably and I just can't see it being the case.

I had to turn it off when he brought up element 115 in relation to cattle mutilations. If you heard that part and were still able to listen...more power to ya, lol.

I love the paracast, but ever since they went "softball" when things like this are brought up it just bothers me.

Originally posted by MainLineThis
I had to turn it off when he brought up element 115 in relation to cattle mutilations. If you heard that part and were still able to listen...more power to ya, lol.

He wasn't suggesting it was element 115. He was explaining that the project at Skinwalker Ranch was not scientific. Any scientist that MUFON has contracted to look at evidence (in this case metal rods) and comes back saying, "I know this is element 115 because I worked with it at Area 51," obviously that person's and that claim should be evaluated closely. If someone had metal rods of stable 115 that would be international news.

listened to the podcast,
Just to summarize my points of interest.

Mufon was sponsored by Billionaire Robert Bigelow but turns out Bigelow represented sponsors to mufon's paycheck of over $50,000 a month.

Bigelow owns BAASS (bigelow Werospace Advanced Space Studies) and has an interest in ET to hopefully back engineer UFO technology

Carrion putting the pieces together on how this UFO craze all started and why?

Grand military Deception Theory,

Maury Island June 1947, three days before the famous sighting by Kenneth Arnold
en.wikipedia.org...

Kenneth Arnold
On June 24, 1947, while flying near Mt. Rainer, Arnold claimed to have seen nine unusual objects flying in the skies.
en.wikipedia.org...

Right after that 2 weeks later a crash saucer at Rosewell,
how convent that it crash in the location of the Manhattan project.

All these events were right after a article about a few scientist claiming they were working on a project
a secret as the Manhattan project.
so who knows?



Carrion's goal is not to go after UFO's but take another route and expose intelligence agencies deception
to attacking them on their own turf

I can see both sides MUFON and Carrion's view, they really are going into two different directions.
MUFON is staying the course of ET UFO's while Carrion's personal belief is to go after intelligence deception to cover up black op projects.

Carrion did say one MUFON report was interesting, the Blackstar Space plane project that was a black ops program that was reported to MUFON with the picture of the craft.
This case was then was reverse to known craft.



his blog
followthemagicthread.blogspot.com...

Originally posted by goatfish
He also believes that over the years the UFO cover has continued to be used for various purposes, including cover for black projects, and training for information warfare on certain internet message boards.
(snip)
James: Well I think we're dealing with specifically intelligence agencies who are interested in information warfare and they're interested in psychological manipulation and I think actually the UFO field provides the perfect training ground for their operations. A prime example is what I've encountered over the last year or so of being at MUFON going up against some of these message boards like the the Open Minds forum and Above Top Secret where the UFO mythology is being pushed by a lot of folks who have no real backgrounds, a lot of folks who are just anonymous individuals who can go out and make whatever claims they like and what I find highly interesting, is, I've always thought, "well, what is the goal of this?" and I think I've sort-of figured out that we're the proving ground for information warfare techniques to be used in the wider world. For example I wrote a blog article about wikileaks and how I think wikileaks isn't what it pretends to be. I think there's an intelligence agency behind that and it's trying to build credibility and use it as conduit for dis-information and as a way to influence governments and I think that had it's start in the UFO world.

Well I don't need training. So where's my god damn job offer?

This is the bit I found rather interesting on his blog if true opens up all sorts of questions.

I also subsequently learned of a business relationship between Lazar and Bigelow (documented in the MUFON archives).

Originally posted by mysteryskeptic
Carrion did say one MUFON report was interesting, the Blackstar Space plane project that was a black ops program that was reported to MUFON with the picture of the craft.
This case was then was reverse to known craft.

I missed that part. Do you know about what time it was in the interview?
What do you mean by the last sentence?

Originally posted by MainLineThis
I love the paracast, but ever since they went "softball" when things like this are brought up it just bothers me.

Same here, more or less. While Biedney's schtick was starting to get old and predictable, it certainly brought something to the show that is now missing....

I kind of lost the respect I once had for Carrion, he came across as bitter and spiteful. Almost like he has to have a better story than the remaining MUFON characters. He sounded like he's having the same problem as many end up with in this field, black and white, all or nothing answers to a big grey area. Regarding everything starting with Maury Island, Arnold and Roswell, O'Brien asked him about the previous centuries of sightings and experiences, Carrion threw up a typical straw man argument about "aliens building the pyramids", and left it at that...

I usually have to listen to theses podcasts 2 or 3 times anyways to get the most out of them. This one will take more and some of my views my change as well...

Originally posted by mobtek
This is the bit I found rather interesting on his blog if true opens up all sorts of questions.

I also subsequently learned of a business relationship between Lazar and Bigelow (documented in the MUFON archives).

I read that and I've come up with a purely speculative theory based on what I've found out:

BAASS (Bigelow Aerospace Advanced Space Studies) is here in Vegas building space stations. Honest to God. They're based on some abandoned NASA technology that uses inflatable walls. They're lighter, smaller during transport, and once inflated quite a bit bigger than what they're currently using on the ISS. Their original business model was to lease their future stations to corporations, small countries, and the very wealthy for micro gravity research and whatever else someone might want to do in space (film the first micro-gravity porno?).

Recently they've entered into talks with NASA about providing new segments for the ISS. But before NASA entered the picture their missing link was getting into space. They've rented space aboard corporate owned rockets to get their two current prototypes up there. But how were they going to shuttle their tenants to and from their space stations?

Robert Bigelow, the Budget Suites of America, hotel magnet and owner of BAASS is obviously into UFOs hence the BAASS partnership with MUFON. If Robert Bigelow wants to get into space and believes in UFOs and is slightly crazy who might he contact? Enter Bob Lazar. Now Bob is best known for his S4 UFO story regarding element 115 but he also knows about other propulsion systems having built a few rocket cars and most recently a jet-powered bicycle. Was Bob Lazar contracted by BAASS to help them build a transport system for their space stations? Is the reason Bigelow purchased Skinwalker Ranch because of supposed "element 115" found there? Could be.

Initially I was fascinated by the Skinwalker Ranch accounts. Read the book, listened to interviews with Vallee. Colm Kelleher and George Knapp and thought long and hard about it. After taking it at face-value, a few things began to bug me and have bugged me since. Elements of the account have all the hallmarks of fiction and should make us wonder why? The fact that reputable people in ufology have supported the accounts raises even more questions. Furthermore, the fact that some other names apparently steered clear of the subject is interesting.

If it's been an ongoing scheme to buttress the outer edges of UFO mythology, does it mean that people like Vallee and Knapp are protagonists too? Not necessarily. The ongoing debate about Hopkins/Jacobs has shown that some of the researchers are looking to support their ideas at the cost of reason. Some have loyalties to each other that ensures they trust each other's word. Others are so far down the rabbit hole, they're mistaking hypoxia for truth...

The 'dark side of ufology' is usually backed by intangible sources and involves mind control, deaths and terror. Skinwalker had all of this and the bonus of dog-headed men in trench coats. When Element 115 is in the mix, Carrion is right to be alarmed and right to realise it's a step too far for credibility. It links not just to Bob Lazar, but to all that BS from Dulce via John Lear and the others. Dulce was also "mind control, deaths and terror." So, perhaps Skinwalker Ranch was all factually accurate and I'm chasing my own tail. Whatever the case, it makes no difference if we accept other possibilities.

Carrion's suspicions that much of US UFO accounts are sourced from intelligence agencies is well-founded on facts. It's hard to work out, in my opinion, if he's got to the point where he believes *all* accounts are an outcome of psy-ops. He's certainly right to point out that the 13000 MUFON reports are largely from unknown witnesses. There's no doubt that genuine witnesses make reports. Likewise, it should be assumed that if any organised group wanted to create a 'false reality' (UFO flap for example), it wouldn't be too hard.

I think we all forget sometimes that the 'UFO enigma' has been used to push the agendas of groups and organisations we'll never know the half of. Little wonder that people are always leavin the subject as fast as others are joining in.

The thoughts of Carrion, that great parts of the UFO myth might have their origin in psy-ops of several agencies does indeed sound plausible. BUT...

Then I have to assume, that the psy-ops and black projects were already initialized ca. 2200 years before the CIA and other three letter agencies were officially formed.

Because it's reported, that "...while crossing a river in 329 B.C., Alexander the Great encountered "silver shields" that swooped down and attacked his troops. It is further claimed that seven years later the shields appeared again and "fired a beam of light" that destroyed part of a wall at the city of Tyre.

(Source: furrsfurchrist.com...)

(See also: www.ufoevidence.org...)

But somehow I've got some difficulties to imagine, that the US three letter agencies are responsible for ALL accounts of strange aerial phenomena that occured in man's history.

Seriously: It indeed might be possible, that several agencies used the increase of UFO sightings to jump on the bandwagon and initialize operations for psychological warfare, and to cover black projects.

But the sheer amount of sightings of UFOs all around the world and through the whole human history makes it difficult for me to accept the information agencies or the military of the US as the only initiator of all that.

Originally posted by goatfish

Originally posted by mysteryskeptic
Carrion did say one MUFON report was interesting, the Blackstar Space plane project that was a black ops program that was reported to MUFON with the picture of the craft.
This case was then was reverse to known craft.

I missed that part. Do you know about what time it was in the interview?
What do you mean by the last sentence?

They lead up to the case 47:30 then start to talk about it at 48 min mark.
for the last sentence the case has a picture of the craft this was first designated a UFO but after further review of the pictured craft with people in the know, this picture was then reversed to a known craft.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/4c6c24d99e2a.jpg[/atsimg]

Whatever the case, if this all comes out one day the true history of Ufology will make a great book, because so much seriously insane stuff has gone on over the years.

Where MUFON and other recognised UFOlogy groups are concerned, I have always had a deep distrust of thier methods and motives. The problem I have with them is that they entertain speakers and authors and randoms alike, who use utterly unscientific methods from dodgy cameras to chanting and meditation to "support" thier claims of contact, or communion with beings from outer space/another dimension/reality or that alien beings are the fathers of mankind.
If MUFON wanted to be the sort of organisation which I would pay any damned attention to what so ever, they would have to be far more interested in the genuine scientific studies which are going on right now, with regard to exoplanets, extremophile organisms found on Earth and thier implications for life elsewhere, than what Bob Lazar (who is a nobody) or for that matter Greer, Collier, or any other bloody liar that pops up ,has to say. Unfortunately MUFON has never really connected with real science at any point in thier entire existance, otherwise instead of holding conventions and meetings , and concentrating thier efforts into being an organisation, they would have been building multi spectrum scanning equipment and telescopes in strategic locations around the globe, for the use EXCLUSIVELY of those wishing to discover life from the other end of space. They would have been ploughing money into forensic science labs being built for the organisation to perform evidence checking on everything sent to it, or discovered by its members, and crucialy wouldnt spend enough time in meetings that someone feels the need to record the meetings for the sake of remembering whats being said.
They never struck me as being serious about the subject in any way or shape or form, and thats where me and them come unstuck. If I had thier resources, and thier man power, I would be up in the faces of everyone who knows how to build large diameter reflecting telescopes , I would have aquired the aviatioin experts, metallurgists , physicists, theoretical and particle experts in that field, and biologists and every concieveable expert from every feild of science , and had them all battering down the walls of the subject with the tools I trust. Scalpels, test tubes , particle accelerators, and super conducting magnets.
I can tell you I wouldnt have let any blasted chanting hippy cultists anywhere near the place for the fear of them bonging out the clean rooms in which any experimental scanning equipment, or celestial object tracking devices might have been stored, and messing the place up with all the BS they spout.
Good for Carrion I say. Hes better off without MUFON, and although I might not share his diagnosis of what the MUFON BS means for the likelihood of visitation, I hope he gets to see a more scientificaly valid approach to the subject in his lifetime. Its something I personaly have been gagging for my whole life.