A Curious Observation on Biblical Prophecy

Originally posted by Kailassa

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by Kailassa
You are falling into the trap so many believers of prophecy fall into. You are interpreting the words to suit your own beliefs. You believe that Paul must link being a good, humble, holy lover of god with Christianity, so you are reading that into his words. instead of looking at only what he is actually saying.

Yes, I suppose that I do, as regards why those qualities would be present (and I agree, and even stated in the OP, that there are plenty of good people who have nothing to do with Christianity,) but the fact remains that, in his time, neither secular nor prevailing religion authorities (barring his own) were instilling those qualities in people, so it's a bit of a stretch to say that he foresaw a future where people did behave well, but where existing authority was still running the show. Possible, but a stretch.

You are suggesting Paul prophesied, yet arguing that Paul could not have foreseen the future if it was not what he expected.

Well, no, what I said was that he would not have looked around, seen the state of the world, and surmised that it would radically change, based on the current circumstances. He could certainly believe that the Way would bring about such a world, but without something prodding him, I'm not certain that he would have come to that conclusion. Paul, after all, seemed to be one who believed that Christ's return was imminent, though the letter seems to take the view that it was a ways off (and, to be fair, the three pastoral letters are often suspected to be forgeries, written by a disciple of Paul in his name, not by the man himself.)

Hence the notion that this bit of prophecy is not a run of the mill flippant comment about the state of the world -- it required some sort of insight that the author didn't have.

I believe time is an experience, that there is actually no such thing as time, merely the illusion of moving through time. On the other hand, I see god as a master weaver, letting humans make the great cloth by our own actions, but sometimes asking for our help to keep the cloth strong and make it possible for future weaving to occur. I'm quite happy to live in a paradox where all has already happened, but where we have free will and can change what has happened in our futures.

I believe god has a "no intervention" policy, which is not cruel or unjust because we are god, each an amnesiac fraction of the infinite, and this is how we've chosen to play this game. Some are called to offer themselves as flutes for the infinite to blow tunes through, and for these people humility is vital, as it is all that separates such calling from insanity. Others live their lives in varying degrees of obliviousness.

Interesting notions, I'll ponder on that for a bit, if you don't mind.

Hi adjenson! I hope all is going well with you.

Regarding the prophecy in question, I think it's important to note that it probably isn't Paul's prophecy at all. More than likely he was either expounding on Jesus' own prophecies or quoting from unpublished works.

Just as Jude quotes Enoch (Behold, the Lord comes with 10,000 of his saints) Paul could be doing the same. What is really curious is a few verses down from the prophecy in question Paul mentions Jannes and Jambres. Origen said that Paul was quoting in this epistle from an unpublished work called 'The Book of Jannes and Jambres.' This book has not yet been found.

It's also possible he was expounding on things Jesus said, like when he addressed the "Daughters of Jerusalem" who were weeping and wailing as he was being led to his death:

"do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children/ For the time will come when you will say, "Blessed are the childless women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed.'" Luke 23:28-29.

Whether it's Paul prophecy or not (I know) is really beside the point. I think it's important to note that he believes this last generation's mentality will be so far removed from God and his approaching kingdom, that they are not going to recognize it, therefore not feeling any conviction or a need to repent.

It's a pretty generic prophecy in my own opinion. Jesus' statement of 'wars and rumours of wars" don't come across as prophecy either but just a fact of life we shouldn't let upset us because the real prophecy is that way worse is coming. The Olivet Prophecy can be broken down into three groups: 1. the destruction of Jerusalem (already happened) 2. the fate of his disciples (already happend) and 3. the end (not happened).

Two out of three.