In Defence of Zeitgeist Part One & Acharya S: Saviour Deities: the Sons of God.

Zeitgeist: On Jesus, Horus and other Pagan gods.

Lucifer 2011.

I did not really want this to get lost in the middle of the ATS thread "Zeitgeist Totally Refuted! (Do not post Zeitgeist BS ever again" and since this post contains the entirety of the Zeitgeist Part One text and a link to Acharya S's more scholarly "The Companion Guide to ZEITGEIST, Part 1" I thought it would be appropriate to start a new thread on this.

Peter Joseph who produced Zeitgeist is not really a scholar of religion and has made a few claims which seem not to be verifiable, however to jump to the conclusion that "all" his claims must therefore be unverifiable is simply unfair. If a person makes a number of claims, such as claims X,Y, Z etc to support a thesis and claim X is shown to be unfounded, this does not necessarily mean that clams Y,Z, etc and the entire thesis are unsupportable.

Further critques of Acharya S's work should be based on Acharya S's writings and not on Peter Joseph's attempt to summarise Acharya S's thesis.

Essentially what we have throughout history are numerous Saviour deity cults, which promise eternal salvation to the adherents; the Savour deity appears allegedly in the afterlife to guarantee the cultist's entrance to a level of the afterlife where all other cultists reside, including the Saviour deity. This has proven to be a very popular formula in the religion business where millions of adherents throughout history have been enticed by such claims.

Should anyone be enticed by such "Saviour Deity" claims and yet finds the thought of having to spend all eternity with a primitive, bigoted and barbaric religious fanatic and fake healer (i.e., Jesus) and endure the constant sermonising and hymn singing of his fanatical followers, to be repulsive, do bear in mind that I personally offer to beat any price on salvation offered by my competitors in the multi-billion dollar Jesus business (or double your money back in the afterlife) and that I promise the reward of 144 (Virgins) in the afterlife (twice what the Muslims offer) to all who commit to anti-religious revolution. .

You can read Acharya S's "The Companion Guide to ZEITGEIST, Part 1" on:
files.meetup.com...

The religion section of Zeitgeist is partly historical and partly, it seems, non historical, with regards to a few points, though I agree with the general thesis of the film. By "non-historical" I refer to a "few" claims which are made in the film that I cannot find historical references for, especially historical claims about Horus; this does not mean that such references do not exist however. I thought that by posting this here, it could be the subject of ongoing research.

If Christians do not agree with the claims made in Zeitgeist, that does not constitute debunking (showing to be false). If a book or historical work has a few claims which cannot be supported, this does not necessarily disprove the entire book.

I have taken the chapter headings and text of Zeitgeist from
conspiracyscience.com... which seems to be the major "debunking" site for Zeitgeist, however it is more of a Christian "attack" on Zeitgeist than a debunking, since many of the claims made in Zeitgeist "can" be substantiated by historical evidence.

The author of the above site, "Edward L Winston" has a great deal to say about Zeitgeist; he seems to dispute almost everything, from what appears to be a Christian point of view, even when there is no real historical reason to dispute matters. I should also point out that Edward L Winston goes on to attack the Zeitgeist view on the "Sept 9/11 US black military operation" and that Edward appears to conisder all government propaganda on this issue to be true and that it should be treated uncritically.

Despite a few claims which cannot be substantiated, I consider Zeitgeist to be a important film which can awaken people to the reality of the fraud of Christianity; however I think that it would have been better to ensure that "all" claims made were historical rather than just most of the claims.


Lucifer

"The Sun
This is the sun. As far back as 10 thousand BC., history is abundant with carvings and writings reflecting peoples respect and adoration for this object. And it is simple to understand why as every morning the sun would rise, bringing vision, warmth, and security, saving man from the cold, blind, predator-filled darkness of night. Without it, the cultures understood, the crops would not grow, and life on the planet would not survive. These realities made the sun the most adorned object of all time. Likewise, they were also very aware of the stars. The tracking of the stars allowed them to recognize and anticipate events which occurred over long periods of time, such as eclipses and full moons. They in turn catalogued celestial groups into what we know today as constellations."

The Zodiac
This is the cross of the Zodiac, one of the oldest conceptual images in human history. It reflects the sun as it figuratively passes through the 12 major constellations over the course of a year. It also reflects the 12 months of the year, the 4 seasons, and the solstices and equinoxes . The term Zodiac relates to the fact that constellations were anthropomorphized, or personified, as figures, or animals.

Horus
This is Horus. He is the Sun God of Egypt of around 3000 BC. He is the sun, anthropomorphized, and his life is a series of allegorical myths involving the sun's movement in the sky. From the ancient hieroglyphics in Egypt, we know much about this solar messiah. For instance, Horus, being the sun, or the light, had an enemy known as Set and Set was the personification of the darkness or night. And, metaphorically speaking, every morning Horus would win the battle against Set - while in the evening, Set would conquer Horus and send him into the underworld. It is important to note that "dark vs. light" or "good vs. evil" is one of the most ubiquitous mythological dualities ever known and is still expressed on many levels to this day.


Broadly speaking, the story of Horus is as follows: Horus was born on December 25th of the virgin Isis-Meri. His birth was accompanied by a star in the east, which in turn, three kings followed to locate and adorn the new-born savior. At the age of 12, he was a prodigal child teacher, and at the age of 30 he was baptized by a figure known as Anup and thus began his ministry. Horus had 12 disciples he traveled about with, performing miracles such as healing the sick and walking on water. Horus was known by many gestural names such as The Truth, The Light, God's Anointed Son, The Good Shepherd, The Lamb of God, and many others. After being betrayed by Typhon, Horus was crucified, buried for 3 days, and thus, resurrected."

I can find no evidence that Horus was born on Dec. 25th. His mother was not certainly "not" a virgin; she allegedly impregnated herself with Osiris' (her dead husband) penis, though this was certainly a miraculous conception. Neither was Horus crucified, though he does appear in Egyptian art on a cross.

With regards to the "star in the east," the "three kings," the "new-born savior," "teacher when he was 12 years old," "baptized at age 30," "walked on water," and "12 disciples," I cannot find a historical source for any of the above. Perhaps others here could research the matter and find sources.

Attis
Attis, of Phyrigia, born of the virgin Nana on December 25th, crucified, placed in a tomb and after 3 days, was resurrected.

I can't find a source for this.

Krishna
Krishna, of India, born of the virgin Devaki with a star in the east signaling his coming, performed miracles with his disciples, and upon his death was resurrected.

I cannot find a source for star in the East

Dionysus
Dionysus of Greece, born of a virgin on December 25th, was a traveling teacher who performed miracles such as turning water into wine, he was referred to as the "King of Kings," "God's Only Begotten Son," "The Alpha and Omega," and many others, and upon his death, he was resurrected.

I Cannot find a source for any of this.

Mithra
Mithra, of Persia, born of a virgin on December 25th, he had 12 disciples and performed miracles, and upon his death was buried for 3 days and thus resurrected, he was also referred to as "The Truth," "The Light," and many others. Interestingly, the sacred day of worship of Mithra was Sunday.

I cannot find a source for any of the claims above apart from Sunday (the day of the Sun) being his worship day. Jesus of course was a religious Israelite and their worship day was the Sabbath (Friday sunset until Saturday sunset); certainly the worship of the god Jesus on a Sunday was a later import into Christianity by Constantine and supports the view that Christianity was a Roman construction.

Mithra was a saviour god of a ritualistic mystery cult who allegedly appeared and welcomed his followers into heaven, when they died. Mithras ascended after death to the spiritual world (ancestral world) where he awaits his followers who were "saved by the blood" of a Bull sacrifice and other sacramental (sacred mind) rituals so there are clearly some similarities with Christianity, especially the central theme of a saviour deity who promises eternal salvation.

Birth
Jesus Christ was born of the virgin Mary on December 25th in Bethlehem, his birth was announced by a star in the east, which three kings or magi followed to locate and adorn the new savior. He was a child teacher at 12, at the age of 30 he was baptized by John the Baptist, and thus began his ministry. Jesus had 12 disciples which he traveled about with performing miracles such as healing the sick, walking on water, raising the dead, he was also known as the "King of Kings," the "Son of God," the "Light of the World," the "Alpha and Omega," the "Lamb of God," and many others. After being betrayed by his disciple Judas and sold for 30 pieces of silver, he was crucified, placed in a tomb and after 3 days was resurrected and ascended into Heaven.

The Chirstmas festivities were traditional in the ancient Roman world around the winter solstice and the Roman feast of Saturnalia, and clearly this is a later Roman import which supports the argument that Christianity is a Roman construction.

"First of all, the birth sequence is completely astrological. The star in the east is Sirius, the brightest star in the night sky, which, on December 24th, aligns with the 3 brightest stars in Orion's Belt. These 3 bright stars are called today what they were called in ancient times: The Three Kings. The Three Kings and the brightest star, Sirius, all point to the place of the sunrise on December 25th. This is why the Three Kings "follow" the star in the east, in order to locate the sunrise -- the birth of the sun."

The bible does not mention "three kings;" the text merely refers to "wise men" and it does not say that there were three of them; the "three kings" is entirely mythical and non biblical..

Mother

The Virgin Mary is the constellation Virgo, also known as Virgo the Virgin. Virgo in Latin means virgin. The ancient glyph for Virgo is the altered "m". This is why Mary along with other virgin mothers, such as Adonis's mother Myrrha, or Buddha's mother Maya begin with an M. Virgo is also referred to as the House of Bread, and the representation of Virgo is a virgin holding a sheaf of wheat. This House of Bread and its symbol of wheat represents August and September, the time of harvest. In turn, Bethlehem, in fact, literally translates to "house of bread". Bethlehem is thus a reference to the constellation Virgo, a place in the sky, not on Earth.

Winter Solstice and Equinox Connections
There is another very interesting phenomenon that occurs around December 25th, or the winter solstice. From the summer solstice to the winter solstice, the days become shorter and colder. From the perspective of the northern hemisphere, the sun appears to move south and get smaller and more scarce. The shortening of the days and the expiration of the crops when approaching the winter solstice symbolized the process of death to the ancients. It was the death of the Sun. By December 22nd, the Sun's demise was fully realized, for the Sun, having moved south continually for 6 months, makes it to it's lowest point in the sky. Here a curious thing occurs: the Sun stops moving south, at least perceivably, for 3 days. During this 3 day pause, the Sun resides in the vicinity of the Southern Cross, or Crux, constellation. And after this time on December 25th, the Sun moves 1 degree, this time north, foreshadowing longer days, warmth, and Spring. And thus it was said: the Sun died on the cross, was dead for 3 days, only to be resurrected or born again. This is why Jesus and numerous other Sun Gods share the crucifixion, 3-day death, and resurrection concept. It is the Sun's transition period before it shifts its direction back into the Northern Hemisphere, bringing Spring, and thus salvation.

Life of Jesus
Now, probably the most obvious of all the astrological symbolism around Jesus regards the 12 disciples. They are simply the 12 constellations of the Zodiac, which Jesus, being the Sun, travels about with.


The Cross
Coming back to the cross of the Zodiac, the figurative life of the Sun, this was not just an artistic expression or tool to track the Sun's movements. It was also a Pagan spiritual symbol, the shorthand of which looked like this. This is not a symbol of Christianity. It is a Pagan adaptation of the cross of the Zodiac. This is why Jesus in early occult art is always shown with his head on the cross, for Jesus is the Sun, the Sun of God, the Light of the World, the Risen Savior, who will "come again," as it does every morning, the Glory of God who defends against the works of darkness, as he is "born again" every morning, and can be seen "coming in the clouds", "up in Heaven", with his "Crown of Thorns," or, sun rays.

Connections Between the Bible and the Zodiac
Now, of the many astrological-astronomical metaphors in the Bible, one of the most important has to do with the ages. Throughout the scripture there are numerous references to the "Age." In order to understand this, we need to be familiar with the phenomenon known as the precession of the equinoxes. The ancient Egyptians along with cultures long before them recognized that approximately every 2150 years the sunrise on the morning of the spring equinox would occur at a different sign of the Zodiac. This has to do with a slow angular wobble that the Earth maintains as it rotates on it's axis. It is called a precession because the constellations go backwards, rather than through the normal yearly cycle. The amount of time that it takes for the precession to go through all 12 signs is roughly 25,765 years. This is also called the "Great Year," and ancient societies were very aware of this. They referred to each 2150 year period as an "age." From 4300 b.c. to 2150 b.c., it was the Age of Taurus, the Bull. From 2150 b.c. to 1 a.d., it was the Age of Aries, the Ram, and from 1 a.d. to 2150 a.d. it is the Age of Pisces, the age we are still in to this day, and in and around 2150, we will enter the new age: the Age of Aquarius.


The Ages
Now, the Bible reflects, broadly speaking, a symbolic movement through 3 ages, while foreshadowing a 4th. In the Old Testament when Moses comes down Mount Sinai with the 10 Commandments, he is very upset to see his people worshiping a golden bull calf. In fact, he shattered the stone tablets and instructed his people to kill each other in order to purify themselves. Most Biblical scholars would attribute this anger to the fact that the Israelites were worshiping a false idol, or something to that effect. The reality is that the golden bull is Taurus the Bull, and Moses represents the new Age of Aries the Ram. This is why Jews even today still blow the Ram's horn. Moses represents the new Age of Aries, and upon the new age, everyone must shed the old age. Other deities mark these transitions as well, a pre-Christian god who kills the bull, in the same symbology.[/I]


Jesus Fish
Now Jesus is the figure who ushers in the age following Aries, the Age of Pisces the Two Fish. Fish symbolism is very abundant in the New Testament. Jesus feeds 5,000 people with bread and "2 fish." When he begins his ministry walking along Galilei, he befriends 2 fisherman, who follow him. And I think we've all seen the Jesus-fish on the backs of people's cars. Little do they know what it actually means. It is a Pagan astrological symbolism for the Sun's Kingdom during the Age of Pisces. Also, Jesus' assumed birth date is essentially the start of this age.

Passover
At Luke 22:10 when Jesus is asked by his disciples where the next passover will be after he is gone, Jesus replied: "Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you bearing a pitcher of water... follow him into the house where he entereth in." This scripture is by far one of the most revealing of all the astrological references. The man bearing a pitcher of water is Aquarius, the water-bearer, who is always pictured as a man pouring out a pitcher of water. He represents the age after Pisces, and when the Sun (God's Sun) leaves the Age of Pisces (Jesus), it will go into the House of Aquarius, as Aquarius follows Pisces in the precession of the equinoxes. Also Jesus is saying is that after the Age of Pisces will come the Age of Aquarius.

Revelation and the Ages
Now, we have all heard about the end times and the end of the world. Apart from the cartoonish depictions in the Book of Revelation, the main source of this idea comes from Matthew 28:20, where Jesus says "I will be with you even to the end of the world." However, in King James Version, "world" is a mistranslation, among many mistranslations. The actual word being used is "aeon", which means "age." "I will be with you even to the end of the age." Which is true, as Jesus' Solar Piscean personification will end when the Sun enters the Age of Aquarius. The entire concept of end times and the end of the world is a misinterpreted astrological allegory. Let's tell that to the approximately 100 million people in America who believe the end of the world is coming.[/I]

The Bible is all Stolen
Furthermore, the character of Jesus, a literary and astrological hybrid, is most explicitly a plagiarization of the Egyptian Sun-god Horus. For example, inscribed about 3500 years ago, on the walls of the Temple of Luxor in Egypt are images of the enunciation, the immaculate conception, the birth, and the adoration of Horus. The images begin with Thaw announcing to the virgin Isis that she will conceive Horus, then Nef the holy ghost impregnating the virgin, and then the virgin birth and the adoration. This is exactly the story of Jesus' miracle conception. In fact, the literary similarities between Jesus and the Egyption religion are staggering.[/I]


The ArkAnd the plagiarism is continuous. The story of Noah and Noah's Ark is taken directly from tradition. The concept of a Great Flood is ubiquitous throughout the ancient world, with over 200 different cited claims in different periods and times. However, one need look no further for a pre-Christian source than the Epic of Gilgamesh, written in 2600 b.c. This story talks of a Great Flood commanded by God, an Ark with saved animals upon it, and even the release and return of a dove, all held in common with the biblical story, among many other similarities.

Moses
And then there is the plagiarized story of Moses. Upon Moses' birth, it is said that he was placed in a reed basket and set adrift in a river in order to avoid infanticide. He was later rescued by a daughter of royalty and raised by her as a Prince. This baby in a basket story was lifted directly from the myth of Sargon of Akkad of around 2250 b.c. Sargon was born, placed in a reed basket in order to avoid infanticide, and set adrift in a river. He was in turn rescued and raised by Akki, a royal mid-wife.


Furthermore, Moses is known as the Law Giver, the giver of the Ten Commandments, the Mosaic Law. However, the idea of a Law being passed from God to a prophet on a mountain is also a very old motif. Moses is just a law giver in a long line of law givers in mythological history. In India, Manou was the great law giver. In Crete, Minos ascended Mount Dicta, where Zeus gave him the sacred laws. While in Egypt there was Mises, who carried stone tablets and upon them the laws of god were written.

Ten Commandments
And as far as the Ten Commandments, they are taken outright from Spell 125 of the Egyptian Book of the Dead. What the Book of the Dead phrased "I have not stolen" became "Thou shall not steal," "I have not killed" became "Thou shall not kill," "I have not told lies" became "Thou shall not bare false witness" and so forth. In fact, the Egyptian religion is likely the primary foundational basis for the Judeo-Christian theology. Baptism, afterlife, final judgment, virgin birth and resurrection, crucifixion, the ark of the covenant, circumcision, saviors, holy communion, the great flood, Easter, Christmas, Passover, and many many more, are all attributes of Egyptian ideas, long predating Christianity and Judaism.

Jesus Christ is a Myth
Justin Martyr, one of the first Christian historians and defenders, wrote: "When we say that he, Jesus Christ, our teacher, was produced without sexual union, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into Heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those who you esteem Sons of Jupiter." In a different writing, Justin Martyr said "He was born of a virgin, accept this in common with what you believe of Perseus." It's obvious that Justin and other early Christians knew how similar Christianity was to the Pagan religions. However, Justin had a solution. As far as he was concerned, the Devil did it. The Devil had the foresight to come before Christ, and create these characteristics in the Pagan world.

Judah and Judas
The Bible is nothing more than an astro-theological literary fold hybrid, just like nearly all religious myths before it. In fact, the aspect of transference, of one character's attributes to a new character, can be found within the book itself. In the Old Testament there's the story of Joseph. Joseph was a prototype for Jesus. Joseph was born of a miracle birth, Jesus was born of a miracle birth. Joseph was of 12 brothers, Jesus had 12 disciples. Joseph was sold for 20 pieces of silver, Jesus was sold for 30 pieces of silver. Brother "Judah" suggests the sale of Joseph, disciple "Judas" suggests the sale of Jesus. Joseph began his work at the age of 30, Jesus began his work at the age of 30. The parallels go on and on.


Jesus and Others Like Him
Furthermore, is there any non-Biblical historical evidence of any person, living with the name Jesus, the Son of Mary, who traveled about with 12 followers, healing people and the like? There are numerous historians who lived in and around the Mediterranean either during or soon after the assumed life of Jesus. How many of these historians document this figure? Not one. However, to be fair, that doesn't mean defenders of the Historical Jesus haven't claimed the contrary. Four historians are typically referenced to justify Jesus's existence. Pliny the younger, Suetonius, Tacitus and the first three. Each one of their entries consists of only a few sentences at best and only refer to the Christus or the Christ, which in fact is not name but a title. It means the "Anointed one". The fourth source is Josephus and this source has been proven to be a forgery for hundreds of years. Sadly, it is still sited as truth.

Jesus Is The Sun
The reality is, Jesus was the Solar Deity of the Gnostic Christian sect, and like all other Pagan gods, he was a mythical figure. It was the political establishment that sought to historize the Jesus figure for social control. By 325 a.d. in Rome, emperor Constantine convened the Council of Nicea. It was during this meeting that the politically motivated Christian Doctrines were established and thus began a long history of Christian bloodshed and spiritual fraud. And for the next 1600 years, the Vatican maintained a political stranglehold on all of Europe, leading to such joyous periods as the Dark Ages, along with enlightening events such as the Crusades, and the Inquisition.

Conclusion: Religion is the One True Evil

Christianity, along with all other theistic belief systems, is the fraud of the age. It served to detach the species from the natural world, and likewise, each other. It supports blind submission to authority. It reduces human responsibility to the effect that "God" controls everything, and in turn awful crimes can be justified in the name of Divine Pursuit. And most importantly, it empowers those who know the truth but use the myth to manipulate and control societies. The religious myth is the most powerful device ever created, and serves as the psychological soil upon which other myths can flourish

With regards to the concluding remarks that religion produces "submission to authority" see my essay, "The Dangers of Religious Hypnosis and Indoctrination: The genocidal faiths of Christianity & Islam. on: www.abovetopsecret.com...

I should further point out that the usual Christian argument which states "I don't agree with that" with regards to the claims made by Acharya S., and Peter Joseph do not constitute a refutation; it is simply a contradiction. It is all too easy for a football hooligan, a drunk at a bus stop, a child in a playground or a religious fanatic to "contradict" a scholar by stating "I don't agree with that." Contradiction does not constitute an intelligent refutation.

Lux

Great post,

It's great to see a response to those who wish to dilute the message of Zeitgeist.

S+F

A&A

reply to post by Lucifer777


"I don't agree with that"
....
third line.

reply to post by KingKeever1611


Derp.

2nd line.

I'd like to chime in if you don't mind.

The atheistic website called Conspiracy Science has been addressed at Acharya's forum here - www.freethoughtnation.com...

I can find no evidence that Horus was born on Dec. 25th. His mother was not certainly "not" a virgin; she allegedly impregnated herself with Osiris' (her dead husband) penis, though this was certainly a miraculous conception. Neither was Horus crucified, though he does appear in Egyptian art on a cross.

"The Pyramid Texts speak of "the great virgin" (Hwn.t wr.t) three times (682c, 728a, 2002a, cf. 809c)" ...

"In a text in the Abydos Temple of Seti I, Isis herself declares: "I am the great virgin"

"The Egyptian goddess who was equally ‘the Great Virgin’ (hwnt) and ‘Mother of the God’ was the object of the very same praise bestowed upon her successor [Mary, Virgin Mother of Jesus]."
- Dr. Witt, an Egyptologist

- Christ in Egypt, page 152

* The Pyramid Texts are 4,400 years old.

"Osiris is doubly resurrected as his son Horus, too, and he, too, is eventually raised from the dead by Isis. He is pictured as spanning the dome of heaven, his arms stretched out in a cruciform pattern. As such, he seems to represent the common Platonic astronomical symbol of the sun s path crossing the earths ecliptic...."

- Dr. Robert Price, Biblical Scholar
www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com...

Here's a video clip of modern Egyptologist Dr. Bojana Mojsov admitting parallels between Osiris &/or Horus with Jesus.



From Osiris to Christ: Episode 2, 3 & 4 on virginity







From Osiris to Christ: Episode 8 ; Discusses Horus born on Dec. 25th

With regards to the "star in the east," the "three kings," the "new-born savior," "teacher when he was 12 years old," "baptized at age 30," "walked on water," and "12 disciples," I cannot find a historical source for any of the above. Perhaps others here could research the matter and find sources.

All of that is covered in her book entitled, Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
www.stellarhousepublishing.com...

From Acharya's FAQ's:

What about December 25th and the winter solstice?
www.freethoughtnation.com...

3 Kings/Orion's Belt & Solstice/Christmas
www.freethoughtnation.com...

I think a lot of the info on Mithra can be found here

Mithra: The Pagan Christ
www.freethoughtnation.com...

For further reading, be sure to give these a serious going over:

The Updated Zeitgeist Part 1 Sourcebook (2010)
www.stellarhousepublishing.com...

Zeitgeist Part 1 & the Supportive Evidence
freethoughtnation.com...

The Origins of Christianity and the Quest for the Historical Jesus Christ
www.stellarhousepublishing.com...

Astrotheology of the Ancients
stellarhousepublishing.com...

My personal favorite is Acharya's new Mythicist Position:



While I'm at it I might as well post this one too:




"I find myself in full agreement with Acharya S/D.M. Murdock" "I find it undeniable that many of the epic heroes and ancient patriarchs and matriarchs of the Old Testament were personified stars, planets, and constellations."

- Dr. Robert Price, Biblical Scholar
www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com...

"Your scholarship is relentless! The research conducted by D.M. Murdock concerning the myth of Jesus Christ is certainly both valuable and worthy of consideration."

- Dr. Kenneth L. Feder, Professor of Archaeology
www.freethoughtnation.com...

Thanks op for putting the flip side of this argument up, but now matter how much information comes from our past, will EVER change the minds of the people that were indoctrinated from infancy to beleive whole heartedly and with faith the term we label as religion.

If everyone woke up to the fact you would have several NGO's going bankrupt overnight, and we cannot have that can we

Originally posted by GoldenKnight
I'd like to chime in if you don't mind.

The atheistic website called Conspiracy Science has been addressed at Acharya's forum here - www.freethoughtnation.com...

I was not aware that Acharya had a discussion forum, but thank you; I will add it to my list of groups that I am subscribed to; it is an interesting forum.

I can find no evidence that Horus was born on Dec. 25th. His mother was not certainly "not" a virgin; she allegedly impregnated herself with Osiris' (her dead husband) penis, though this was certainly a miraculous conception. Neither was Horus crucified, though he does appear in Egyptian art on a cross.

"The Pyramid Texts speak of "the great virgin" (Hwn.t wr.t) three times (682c, 728a, 2002a, cf. 809c)" ...

"In a text in the Abydos Temple of Seti I, Isis herself declares: "I am the great virgin"

"The Egyptian goddess who was equally ‘the Great Virgin’ (hwnt) and ‘Mother of the God’ was the object of the very same praise bestowed upon her successor [Mary, Virgin Mother of Jesus]."
- Dr. Witt, an Egyptologist

- Christ in Egypt, page 152

* The Pyramid Texts are 4,400 years old.

OK, I entirely concede the point. It seems to me that the criticism that Isis was not a virgin is based upon the myth of Isis where she is portrayed as being married to Osirus, but since she does appear to be described as a virgin, this rather negates the criticism.

Of course the question is begged as to how she can both be a virgin and not a virgin, but holding two contradictory beliefs is entirely commonplace among religious fanatics who believe in ancient myths, such as that reference to Mary as the "Virgin Mary" or "Holy VIrgin" despite the fact that the Gospel fiction presents her as having children with her husband Joseph.

From Osiris to Christ: Episode 8 ; Discusses Horus born on Dec. 25th

Yes, I watched the video; certainly it does establish the point.

With regards to the "star in the east," the "three kings," the "new-born savior," "teacher when he was 12 years old," "baptized at age 30," "walked on water," and "12 disciples," I cannot find a historical source for any of the above. Perhaps others here could research the matter and find sources.

All of that is covered in her book entitled, Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection
www.stellarhousepublishing.com...

From Acharya's FAQ's:

What about December 25th and the winter solstice?
www.freethoughtnation.com...

3 Kings/Orion's Belt & Solstice/Christmas
www.freethoughtnation.com...

I think a lot of the info on Mithra can be found here

Mithra: The Pagan Christ
www.freethoughtnation.com...

For further reading, be sure to give these a serious going over:

The Updated Zeitgeist Part 1 Sourcebook (2010)
www.stellarhousepublishing.com...

Zeitgeist Part 1 & the Supportive Evidence
freethoughtnation.com...

The Origins of Christianity and the Quest for the Historical Jesus Christ
www.stellarhousepublishing.com...

Astrotheology of the Ancients
stellarhousepublishing.com...

OK I concede all points and retract all criticisms.

My personal favorite is Acharya's new Mythicist Position:

Yes, our ancestors were mostly illiterate and uneducated; the telling of myths was often a way of imparting certain traditional truths, or at least what was considered to be truths; unfortunately we still live in a world of religious fanatics who take such things literally

I notice that the thread "Zeitgeist Totally Refuted! (Do not post Zeitgeist BS ever again" which you are also participating in just goes on and on and on. Having debated on various "religion" forums for many years, it is my impression that the various "Trolls for Jesus" often attempt to turn every single thread, whatever the subject, into an excuse for sermonising and religious ramblings; it is simply impossible to have a rational argument with many of them, since human reason is ultimately the enemy of faith. I have come to the conclusion that since around 20% to 25% of all schizophrenics have been shown to be suffering from a "religious" form of schizophrenia, that many of these persons end up on the Internet rather than just talking to themselves.

There is a saying "never pick an argument with a fool or a woman" since they are both "always" right; however with regards to "women" this is purely satirical and not to be taken literally however, "religious schizophrenics should most certainly be added to that. I only tend to argue with them for the sake of others who might be taken in by them.

I am not of course suggesting that all persons suffering from religious psychosis are truly schizophrenic, merely that they tend to display many of the symptoms of schizophrenia and consider the model of "human perfection (i.e., perfect mental health)" to be models such as Jesus and Mohammad who were clearly archetypal religious schizophrenics.

Regards.

Lux

Thanks for the kind reply, Lucifer777.

"Of course the question is begged as to how she can both be a virgin and not a virgin, but holding two contradictory beliefs is entirely commonplace among religious fanatics who believe in ancient myths, such as that reference to Mary as the "Virgin Mary" or "Holy VIrgin" despite the fact that the Gospel fiction presents her as having children with her husband Joseph. "

I'm glad you brought that up. It's all covered wonderfully in the video below.

From Osiris to Christ: Ep. 3

"Good luck to the detractors trying to debunk that. Little do they know they're just spinning their wheels and always have been from the very beginning. It'll be interesting to watch Christian apologists attempt to shore up their faith at all costs after watching that video.

I especially love the explanation of the Egyptian "Ba" with the demonstration of that point via a clip from "The Golden Compass." This entire video gives the very best, most categorically clear explanation I've ever seen on the issue of virgin vs. not virgin. It puts the argument against Isis' virginity as well as Horus's virgin birth to rest - FOR GOOD!!! And many of the sources used throughout that entire video series came from Acharya's books - especially Christ in Egypt.

I don't care who it is, Biblical or NT scholar, Egyptologist (Egyptologists are not trained on these issues. Same as NT scholars are not trained to investigate the case for mythicism) - ANYONE who even tries to argue against Isis' virginity and Horus's virgin birth only makes a complete fool of themselves demonstrating that they absolutely do not know what the hell they're talking about. Every anti-Zeitgeister and anti-Acharya fanatic out there should be forced to watch that video.

We have successfully defeated the anti-Zeitgeist and anti-Acharya crowd on these issues far, far beyond a shadow of a doubt - to the point of making any top rank scholar look just flat dumb to even try to argue against Zeitgeist part 1 on religion or Acharya on these issues.

I laughed out loud watching part 3 when the bird song came on and all those images of Mary with birds were shown."

www.freethoughtnation.com...

ISIS IS A VIRGIN MOTHER!!!
freethoughtnation.com...

Was Horus "Crucified?"
www.stellarhousepublishing.com...

Documented Sources for Zeitgeist Part One
thezeitgeistmovement.com...:_The_Greatest_Story_Ever_Told

"I notice that the thread "Zeitgeist Totally Refuted! (Do not post Zeitgeist BS ever again" which you are also participating in just goes on and on and on. Having debated on various "religion" forums for many years, it is my impression that the various "Trolls for Jesus" often attempt to turn every single thread, whatever the subject, into an excuse for sermonising and religious ramblings; it is simply impossible to have a rational argument with many of them, since human reason is ultimately the enemy of faith. I have come to the conclusion that since around 20% to 25% of all schizophrenics have been shown to be suffering from a "religious" form of schizophrenia, that many of these persons end up on the Internet rather than just talking to themselves. "

Yes indeed, there are too many mentally ill people posting in forums across the net. It's nearly impossible to have a rational conversation, especially on these issues found in Zeitgeist part 1 on religion. They're constantly doing anything they can to poison the well &/or have any & all discussion of Zeitgeist part 1 on religion removed and banned from discussion in the first place - I've seen several moderators at a variety of forums ban members as well as all discussion of part 1 - just because they don't like it. You can't even have a decent discussion at the ex-christian.net forum. The mods & admin will attack you and ban you from there too.

Originally posted by GoldenKnight

Yes indeed, there are too many mentally ill people posting in forums across the net. It's nearly impossible to have a rational conversation, especially on these issues found in Zeitgeist part 1 on religion.

It has been estimated that only 0.3 to 0.5% of the human poluation are truly schizophrenic. This is about one person out of 100-300. Their brain scans show that they are "abnormal" and cannot really help their condition.Those people cannot be "cured" by psychoanalysis or simple conversation and affection because they are truly suffering from a neurological condition.

Since around 20-25% of schizophrenics are suffering from a "religious" form of schizophrenia, this means that only about one in a 1000 persons (approximately) are truly "religious schizophrenics;" however in a global population of 7 billion, this means that there are probably at least around 7 million people who are truly religious schizophrenics and who probably do hear voices in their head which they interpret as the voices of the gods.

Unfortunately some of these religious schizophrenics become religious leaders and become very successful in the multi-billion dollar religion business. This problem is amplified by the existence of religious models of a "perfect" person such as Jesus and Mohammad, who fit the description of an archetypal religious schizophrenic; thus the model of perfect mental health which religionists revere is often a model of a religious schizophrenic; this has totally destructive consequences for humankind.

Lux
"The criticism of religion is the premise of all criticism" Marx

Originally posted by allprowolfy
Thanks op for putting the flip side of this argument up, but now matter how much information comes from our past, will EVER change the minds of the people that were indoctrinated from infancy to beleive whole heartedly and with faith the term we label as religion.

If everyone woke up to the fact you would have several NGO's going bankrupt overnight, and we cannot have that can we

Well I wouldn'tt mind if those Gaia worshipers over at the UN folded immediately. That would include the Goracle and Maurice Strong.

Were George Washington and Thomas Jefferson Jesus Mythicists?

truthbeknown.com...

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