No joke - US "moderate Muslim" man beheads wife: The Mo Hussan trial.

reply to post by arollingstone

– see? I understood. You clearly implied that Muslims commit a larger amount of crime than your statistics present, based on an opinion that they culturally support certain crimes. Nonsense.

No, I implied that your statistics are not very reliable to measure true crime rate, and they are not, according to your own source.

If you are not in fact saying that Muslims specifically allow each other to commit crimes more than other cultures, then what culture are you referring to? Why would you make that statement, the one that you are clearly very proud of, in this thread? Be specific pleiz.

I made it to adress people who were posting about other similar crimes commited by non-muslims, just like you did.

That a woman was murdered is not the point of this thread, thousands of women are murdered all over the world every day. The point of this thread is that the guy that did it comes from a culture that believes that such women deserve to be killed. That is the real concern, and the reason why the word "dark ages" appeared in this thread.

Originally posted by MichiganSwampBuck
I've read the Quran and in my opinion everyone should. Here's a good quote to help explain how this type of behavior is rationalized.

Yusuf Ali (8:12) - Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

They have a lot more good advice like that in their holy books. Of course the Jewish Torah has similar advice as well. I never read anything in the gospels that Jesus advocated this sort of violence though.

Like you say, all organised religions have their flaws. However, this was in reference to a specific battle and time context. Little google search comes up with these references:

islamic-replies.ucoz.com...

www.answering-christianity.com...

Whilst all of the 'big three' have had bloody histories, it doesn't do any favours to quote the Quran without any explanation or context of the sentence. There are many websites that claims Christianity make statements like these, it doesn't mean anyone should latch onto them.

Originally posted by Maslo

No, I implied that your statistics are not very reliable to measure true crime rate, and they are not, according to your own source.

Funny that, they weren't my statistics - I have not posted any statistics in the post, someone else did and you responded to him. Both of your lists proved that Muslim countries tend to have lower crime rates.

I made it to adress people who were posting about other similar crimes commited by non-muslims, just like you did.

That a woman was murdered is not the point of this thread, thousands of women are murdered all over the world every day. The point of this thread is that the guy that did it comes from a culture that believes that such women deserve to be killed. That is the real concern, and the reason why the word "dark ages" appeared in this thread.

I think you are confused, seeing as you think I posted those statistics up. Please revise the thread.

Ok well, you still aren't being specific I see. So basically, my last assumption was spot on? You claim that Muslim culture, specifically, advocates the murder of women in these circumstances, of which we are not even aware (i.e. how would you define 'such women' when she has hardly even been described)? If not, then what other culture of the couple in this case are you referring to?

If so, then sorry, this is an incorrect opinion. My own earlier point is that this behaviour happens in all cultures, whether it is reported or not is subjective. How can someone who knows very little of the culture make a generalised statement about it? Stating that Muslims generally don't report this type of murder to the police is ridiculous - what about her family members?

reply to post by halfoldman

Actually if a Christian murdered in forms inspired by his or her religion I would call that a "fundamentalist" killing.
In my opinion most Christians are personally moderate in their faith. So such a killing would be a fundamentalist aberration.

Yet Christians commit violent crimes on a regular basis despite their faith or religious upbringing. If a Christian man murders his wife or girlfriend their faith is rarely brought into question. Why is that? Could it be because murder is murder despite one's religious leanings...

Crimes of passion do happen everywhere, but cutting off people's heads in a pre-meditated murder is not something I see anywhere outside certain regions.

Ah, but many times Christian men commit premeditated murder regardless of their choice of method. Premeditated murder is still murder. It doesn't matter if the man blows his wife's head off with a firearm or slashes and stabs her with a knife or beats her to death with a blunt object. The end result is still the same.

You cannot convince me for one second that such cultures are better than the US, especially as you have no statistics from a culture where women are ciphers.
This is defending the indefensible, and that trend is highly concerning.

I'm not trying to convince you that one culture is better than another. Women are abused and exploited and murdered by their male significant others around the world and across all ethnic, religious and socioeconomic groups.

What is indefensible is differentiating between a Muslim man killing his wife and a Christian man committing the same crime.

reply to post by ladyinwaiting

I do believe some are using it as propaganda of a sort. Not all though. And in fact, those who do really are doing a disservice by masking and distracting from the horrific nature of a crime against a human at its base level, which I think is your concern?

reply to post by arollingstone


I guess the point I'm trying to make is someone who lives by the words of Jesus as he is quoted, ie. a Christian, wouldn't advocate any violence, in times of war or peace. Christ had his fits of rage, like at the temple with the money changers, but he never went around saying you can cheat, torture, kill and dismember unbelievers and people of other faiths like the Quran does. JC was forgiving and a healer, a true Christian would be the same and so from that point of view, such a heinous crime committed by a Christian should get the front page. This sort of violence is common place in Islam and so is no real news to me as they have a tradition of chopping off the offending parts.

reply to post by arollingstone

Funny that, they weren't my statistics - I have not posted any statistics in the post, someone else did and you responded to him. Both of your lists proved that Muslim countries tend to have lower crime rates.

Even if we accept that actual real crime rate is lower in muslim countries (but thats heavily disputed, since reported crime rate is obviously a function of real crime rate AND willingness to report crimes, quality of PD work, corruption etc.. you cannot derive real crime rates only from reported crime rates if other variables it depends on differ considerably), it wont contradict my point at all, my point is about cultural support, not actual prevalence of murders. And since it is not a crime to kill women engaging in adultery in these countries, and honour killings are also practically legal there, they wont even make it into the reported crime statistics most of the time.

I think you are confused, seeing as you think I posted those statistics up. Please revise the thread.

I posted them only after you said statistics like these somehow contradict my point.

So basically, my last assumption was spot on? You claim that Muslim culture, specifically, advocates the murder of women in these circumstances, of which we are not even aware (i.e. how would you define 'such women' when she has hardly even been described)?

Yes, I claim that muslim culture (at least in Egypt, Jordan, Indonesia, Pakistan, Nigeria..) supports the murder of women for trivial "crimes" such as adultery, and supports honour killings.

If so, then sorry, this is an incorrect opinion. My own earlier point is that this behaviour happens in all cultures, whether it is reported or not is subjective.

How does the fact that these things happen in all countries dispute my point? I just dont see the connection. Prevalence is absolutely irrelevant, reaction of the majority in the society is. Even if we take it ad absurdum - if in the western world there were for example 100 women killed every month for adultery by jealous husbands (acting alone), but almost all other members of the society would be shocked by it when they hear about the killing and and condemned it, and in the muslim world there were 50 women killed for adultery every month, but this was praised and done with the support of the majority and local leaders, are you honestly going to claim that their culture is not worse? The number of killings does not matter, only cultural opinion does, when one talks about culture.

How can someone who knows very little of the culture make a generalised statement about it? Stating that Muslims generally don't report this type of murder to the police is ridiculous - what about her family members?

Because we have official opinion polls from Pew Research Center (The Pew Global Attitudes Project) saying the thing, and that is a very reliable source.

The crime was reported since it happened in the US, and her family members were in Pakistan when the murder happened, so I dont see your point.
Obviously if 82% of Pakistanis agree with honour killings, they also wont report them. If you agree with marijuana legalisation, would you report the possesion of it to the police?

reply to post by MichiganSwampBuck


It doesn't matter who lives in what matter, Jesus or otherwise - the religious institutions will find a way to manipulate the truth whenever it suits their needs. Yes Jesus allegedly lived in a great way, but the Church still managed to use his name, and that of God, to justify their wars and immense cruelty. Presidents to this day use religious rhetoric and claim that God is on their side, simply to appease and win over Christian voters.

Most people are born into the religions that they serve and are indoctrinated by their parents, but this does not neccessarily mean that they are moral people or that they are following the truth. Many of these people act in a certain way considered 'good' in order to reach heaven and avoid hell but this is a selfish mentality, for they do not have the indiscriminate desire to always act patiently and compassionately towards all fellow man. Non-believers are too often held in contempt.

I personally feel that whoever you treat as a role model, one must question their faith in order to either strengthen it or to at least gain a greater understanding of what it means to be human and what the truly important values in these moral doctrines are, if any (this is a personal matter). Or rather, one should worship the miracle of life within the Church of the Self . For through this way, one will learn that we are all born the same and it is merely our environment that forms the basis of our cultural assumptions - the idea of disliking or discriminating against someone for this very reason is absurd. That is why I feel that it is the duty of all of those with this level of understanding to defend any group being discriminated against, it is irrational and self-destructive behaviour (in the larger scheme of things).

Yea, Lo

reply to post by maria_stardust

Honour killings are murders where family members feel justified in killing other family members because they have "dishonoured them".
I'm sorry, I simply don't see that in Christian culture right now.

But thanks for bringing some balance.
Every thread has a focus, and I don't see why a bunch of current criminals in one religion deserve a full cultural relativity test.
Please, publish any photos or papers on honor killings in Christianity in the 20th century.

reply to post by halfoldman


How about whenever a Christian person kills their spouse after finding out they have cheated? That could be considered a form of honour killing, it's certainly ego-based. Not in the same sense, but to some degree.

reply to post by arollingstone


I see your point and I'm not really disagreeing. Thanks for the level headed discussion and the links you had in your other reply to my post. I'll be looking those over.

reply to post by arollingstone

Why must I now force Christians into a specific debate, when the thread is not on Christians (and trust me, I've had many on them).
This is outrageous!
I've never been told it is logical that if you talk about abuse in one religion you must first compare and unpack all the others.
But why? Why this special protection for case after case of blatant misogyny?
Why conflate this as anti-Islamic? Isn't that a roundabout admission of guilt?

Originally posted by arollingstone
reply to post by halfoldman

 

How about whenever a Christian person kills their spouse after finding out they have cheated? That could be considered a form of honour killing, it's certainly ego-based. Not in the same sense, but to some degree.

Cool, well why not suggest it to the powers that be who define those things.
Luckily it's not me, I just follow those definitions.
Yeah and I suppose when some Muslim women have their faces burned off, I guess they'd feel a lot better if Westerners claimed that their men did this too.
I mean we'll say that just to make them feel better, but we won't criticize. A bit like female circumcision I guess.
Or even the male circumcision in SA that kills at least a dozen boys every year.
Yeah, we do that too (wink, wink).

This is completely ridiculous. This is way too ridiculous to be for real.

reply to post by SamTGonzalez


Not only is it real but it took two years to get this jerk to trial.He confessed when he turned himself in.I live near Buffalo and used to live not far from where this slimebag lived.He tried to get his kids to lie for him ,but they refused.He's a lying scumbag.It was clear that it was premeditated.He even filmed it.The film was presented at the trial.We've been following this from the start and there was another thread on here about it when he was convicted.a couple of weeks ago

Originally posted by halfoldman

Originally posted by arollingstone
reply to post by halfoldman

 

How about whenever a Christian person kills their spouse after finding out they have cheated? That could be considered a form of honour killing, it's certainly ego-based. Not in the same sense, but to some degree.

Cool, well why not suggest it to the powers that be who define those things.
Luckily it's not me, I just follow those definitions.
Yeah and I suppose when some Muslim women have their faces burned off, I guess they'd feel a lot better if Westerners claimed that their men did this too.
I mean we'll say that just to make them feel better, but we won't criticize. A bit like female circumcision I guess.
Or even the male circumcision in SA that kills at least a dozen boys every year.
Yeah, we do that too (wink, wink).

I really don't understand what you're trying to get at. White British chavs throw acid in peoples' faces and burn them off too, so what? South Africa has not got anything to do with this topic, but yes - similarly cruel crimes occur there too. This happens all over the world - that is my point. No culture or nationality is innocent, no culture or nationality is guilty - all cultures have their bad individual seeds. It is a matter of the individual's capacity for compassion or cruelty, not predetermined racial qualities.

reply to post by MichiganSwampBuck


Yeah, I do recognise and appreciate this - your own post was very open-minded and posed some good questions. I was just throwing some ideas out there, not necessarily applicable but like I say, food for thought. All the best!

Originally posted by lonegurkha
reply to post by SamTGonzalez

 

Not only is it real but it took two years to get this jerk to trial.He confessed when he turned himself in.I live near Buffalo and used to live not far from where this slimebag lived.He tried to get his kids to lie for him ,but they refused.He's a lying scumbag.It was clear that it was premeditated.He even filmed it.The film was presented at the trial.We've been following this from the start and there was another thread on here about it when he was convicted.a couple of weeks ago

Oh now that is disgusting and a special kind of evil/sickness to film himself murdering his wife, so........shall I add egomaniac to his list of character flaws.

To the op, there is no such thing as a "semi honor killing" it doesn't exist, it either is or it isn't. In this case, I feel this nut was involved in a messy divorce, and like many men decided his life would be much better to be rid of her, in the most basic honest sense of the term. Unfortunately, there are many stories or men killing their wives or soon to be ex's or girlfriends etc, and to a lesser extent women killing their significant others.

Here are a few decapitation stories: A Mexican American family www.ktla.com...

A mentally unstable Phillipino man www.themorningstarr.co.uk...

An Italian jealous Italian man dalje.com...

A 23 year old American man www.foxnews.com...

I tried to use the adjectives the stories did in describing the character of the person committing the crime. Also, none of these stories mention the religion the criminal or the victims, it seems to be only in the cases of Muslims is their religion relevant to the story. Fyi, killing your wife because she wants a divorce is against Islam, let me just lay that out there in case others are unaware. I understand that some of the more extremist governments do not allow woman to divorce, however according to the Quran women are infact allowed to seek divorce from their husbands. He killed her because he is bat # crazy, end of story, I hope he rots in jail.

Originally posted by halfoldman

What could be the psychology here?
Is he a psychopath?

edit on 17-2-2011 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)

You just answered your own question buddy.

reply to post by SamTGonzalez

Actually that's what I first thought, and my original thread title began "Is this a joke?"
However, it is not a joke.
But why did it seem so unreal?
It's because this is behavior that many people (whether they admit or not) have come to associate with certain Islamic cultures. However, thats very politically incorrect, so they must almost stumble over themselves to dissociate the crime from any cultural context.
If anybody brought the Muslim angle into this case it was the murderer himself.
If it leads to Islamophobic sentiments it is entirely his fault.
Of course the irony is that he made a career of trying to show how lovely and moderate his culture was.
And then he does the most stereotypical thing that we've come to expect after loads of reports on Muslim honor killings, and the beheading of hostages, and the terrible plight of women about to be stoned (thinking of the film, The Stoning of Soraya M - I suppose thats also just anti-Muslim), or gay people thrown off buildings or having walls pushed on them.
It is so unbelievable because this idiot did the very thing he was trying to counter.
Otherwise it might well have been just another murder.