Farnese Atlas

Finally able to start my first post! Yay me!!

Ok, I have a question regarding Atlas. According to Wikipedia the Farnese Atlas is a second century Roman marble COPY of a Hellenistic sculpture of Atlas kneeling with a globe on his shoulders. It is, I believe the oldest known statue of him. So my question is, if in the second century he was depicted with a GLOBE on his shoulders, why did 15th century Europeans believe the world was flat? And if they really all believed that the world was flat, then how is it that the people of the Hellenistic period (300 BC -ish) know the world was globe shaped? Has anyone else wondered about this? It just struck me a few weeks ago and though I did a small search I did not look into it in depth. I'll do that now, but would love to hear anyone else's ideas on it.

reply to post by Christarella

if in the second century he was depicted with a GLOBE on his shoulders, why did 15th century Europeans believe the world was flat?

Now that's a million dollar question right there.

Maybe the "modern" Europeans thought it was simply a myth. Not too different from the way most people view the Roman/Greek belief systems today.

Or perhaps the pope told them the world was flat!

S&F for starting a very thought provoking thread.

You raise a great point, however I believe it can be explained. The thought that the Earth is flat comes from Europe. Well during this time literally all of Europe was controlled darn near totally, by the Catholic Church. They were very corrupt, and anything that was decreed, or saw as truth by the Church, was truth, and anything that was questioned was considered heresy, and the person was often either put to death, or excommunicated. This led the trend of people not really trying to see or figure out things for themselves, but rather relying solely on what the Church said.

Furthermore, people of old, (ancients), tended to have more of grip on reality, because they questioned things, instead of being told what to think. Ancient people seem to know more than we do now, but all of their knowlegde is either currently lost or being withheld.

The greeks used astronomy to reason that the earth had to be round, and they say that sailors would probably have figured that the world was round by seeing mountain disappearing over the horizon, its supposed to be a misconception that the columbus era explorers thought that the earth was flat,

According to Russell, [Jefferey Burton Russell author of Inventing the Flat Earth] the common misconception that people before the age of exploration believed that Earth was flat entered the popular imagination after Washington Irving's publication of A History of the Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus in 1828. Although some of the arguments attributed by Irving to Columbus's opponents had been recorded not long after the latter's death, there is no record of their having argued that the Earth was flat, and none before Irving is known to have accused them of doing so. Modern historians have dismissed the claim that they did so as a fabrication of Irving's.

forgot to put the rest of my post hahaha, the only proponents of the flat earth theory back in the columbus era was the catholic church

reply to post by Christarella
Hiya and good work on your first thread....I hope a few people come by and read it. The idea that people once thought the world was flat is pretty much a modern invention. I think Mark Twain wrote that Columbus sailed to 'prove the world isn't flat' and the idea spread.

It's probable that informed/intelligent/eduacated people knew the world was round since at least 3000 years ago. That doesn't mean that nobody believed the world was flat. No BS. A friend of mine once asked why, if we can see the Moon, can't we see China on a clear day? Yeah, he was embarrassed as hell when he thought about it!

Anyway, it seems a shame to have a nice OP and no image of the big guy himself...

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b70fb1d1a69d.jpg[/atsimg]

Gee thanx....thanx a lot. Just what I needed...something ELSE to keep me up thinking at night. UGH!

:bnghd:


S&F (*&^%$^! Why didn't I think of this for a thread)

Oh how I love this place! I wish there would have been a place like this in my childhood to answer all those questions I had back then, I tended to get scowled at a lot by adults when I'd ask questions they had no answer for. I'm sure most people here on the ATS boards can relate to that. Unfortunately adulthood and all of the responsibilities that come along with raising a family hampered my own curiosity about the world. But heck, now that the kids are all grown its coming back to me!!

Thanks Kandinsky, for posting the pic, I haven't attained that ability yet

I guess I always thought/learned that Columbus was the one who had the theory of the round earth or assumed he was anyway. Oh the bits and pieces they leave out of the history books! Amazing how well the church was able to dumb us all down and succeed for so long. I think we're just now coming out of the dark ages really. Thanks for your replies!

reply to post by Tasty Canadian


Ha ha, Tasty, yes, YOU of all people should have thought of that!

I remember reading about how Columbus sailed west to the Indies to prove the world wasn’t flat in the school history books from the 80’s. In the same books it states that he was the first to discover the America’s.

All of these facts we now know are not true, the America’s were known about by at least the Vikings if not the by the European countries as well. Columbus was not trying to prove the world round. There is even speculation as to whether he was really trying to find another rout to the Indies, or just seeing what kind of goods he could find in the Americas to warrant further ventures.

My question is what is in the children’s schoolbooks of today. My oldest son will be starting kindergarten in September and would hope that these archaic ideas are not still being pumped into the children’s heads. I am hoping they have updated these concepts, to better educate the children, but does anyone know if they have been updated or still spewing the same archaic ideas they were in the 80’s?

The flat earthers were the religious folk, at that time. Didnt want people to go off and discover the new world or any were else that they couldnt control. Same with any one who invented anything. They were accused of being witches or wizards ect. Then these lovely kind loving religious folk, burned them at the stake. The dark ages? It was only dark because of those nice religious folk.

S&F!! Great Question. Holds a lot of truth. Seems like the greeks knew more then we thought.

There really wasn't a big belief in a "flat earth" in Medieval Europe, those few who did believe in that were not very influential. The church gets a lot of blame for "promoting" a belief in a flat earth as well as accusations of persecuting those who claimed the world was round, but it's not true (albeit they did persecute some for promoting heliocentricism and other "heretical" beliefs).

Medieval Europeans took their cues from the Greeks, Eratosthenes, Strabo, Ptolemy, whose teachings were recorded by Seneca from whence the Europeans learned of them. The big debate in Columbus' day was the size of the world, not whether it was flat or round. They accepted Eratosthenes figures, which were much larger than those of Strabo and Ptolemy. Most of Columbus' critics thought his estimate of the globe's size was too small, and he would never reach the shores of Asia alive.

reply to post by Christarella

The statue DOES NOT depict a world globe. Atlas was said to hold up the heavens not the earth and the celestial globe in the image above has constellations not continents carved into it.

-Doug

reply to post by Doug Fisher
Yep, you beat me to it. Atlas is not holding "the sky", or "the planet", he is holding "all of the heavens".

As has been mentioned, the idea that people in the middle ages believed the earth was flat is erroneous. It wasn't taught by the establishment of the day, nor was it taught by the Catholic, or any other church. This thinking has been perpetuated by our educational system. But a little research on google will tell you it's wrong. I, and others have done threads on this. www.abovetopsecret.com... and here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

This is great! Thanks for all the wonderful informative replies!

Originally posted by Christarella
Ok, I have a question regarding Atlas. According to Wikipedia the Farnese Atlas is a second century Roman marble COPY of a Hellenistic sculpture of Atlas kneeling with a globe on his shoulders. It is, I believe the oldest known statue of him. So my question is, if in the second century he was depicted with a GLOBE on his shoulders, why did 15th century Europeans believe the world was flat?

Atlas doesn't have a globe of the Earth on his shoulders. It's the sky. Look closely. See the constellations?
Atlas holds up the sky, not the Earth.

Originally posted by Christarella And if they really all believed that the world was flat, then how is it that the people of the Hellenistic period (300 BC -ish) know the world was globe shaped? Has anyone else wondered about this? It just struck me a few weeks ago and though I did a small search I did not look into it in depth. I'll do that now, but would love to hear anyone else's ideas on it.

Eratosthenes estimated the circumference of the spherical Earth in the second century BC.

The Greeks figured the world was a sphere well before that, as did sages in India.

The idea that "everyone" thought the world was flat is a myth that comes from a book by Washington Irving about Columbus. He literally made up that detail.

Harte

The idea that "everyone" thought the world was flat is a myth that comes from a book by Washington Irving about Columbus. He literally made up that detail.

Harte

I have long thought that people tend to see the past thru the filter of the nineteenth century.

The "made up detail" comment reminds me of that wonderful book (the title is "How America Really Got Its Name" or something similar) which refutes the old saw about Amerigo Vespucci, and sets out to prove that America is really named after a Bristol merchant nemed Richard Amerike.

A Persian friend of mine (Persian, not Iranian, he insisted - Iran has to do with those G-D arab descendents who ruined his country - his very words.) has a slant on "America." In old Farsi, there is the phrase Ame Rica, or "My Son." Interesting, but I'm getting off-topic...

reply to post by Lazarus Short


Hey Lazarus, I can't believe I missed this post. Tell me more about the origin of America, that is an interesting twist that your friend gave. What are your thoughts on that?