Gypsies: The Last Acceptable Form of Racism

reply to post by dsm1664


The AngloRomani language goes back centuries, and as there have been Romani travellers in the UK, for centuries as well, their language merged into ours quite frequently

reply to post by destination now


Maybe so, it's just that having been brought up in an area where travellers frequent, the word 'chav' was never really associated with them, just people from Chatham. The word did become associated with the young gernation of travellers, but I remember having a conversation with my parents regarding the word. And they questioned why I called travellers 'chavs'..saying that they'd only known that word to belong to people from Chatham..

Anywho, Chicken and the Egg.

reply to post by dsm1664


The original word was chavvi, which is AngloRomani for child, usually a boy! The term chav was coined centuries after this word was first used to describe youths, it may well have started in Chatham, but the original word it came from was chavvi, young boy. As travellers are found all over the uk, I can remember my great grandmother talking 'boot ta chavvi's" or in English, the children of the travelling communities, she was born in hull in 1896, and I first heard the word from her in Scotland in 1972...No connection to Chatham whatsoever!

reply to post by destination now


I'm thinking it's probably just a coincidence.

I was brought up in Gravesend, known by my friends and I as Gravo. People probably did the same thing with Chatham, and called people 'Chavs'.

So in certain areas of the UK, there are different meanings of the word. Doesn’t mean that people from Chatham adopted an old Gypsy word. The evolution of the word in Kent, was derived by people in Chatham being called 'Chavs'. That area of Kent is like a less maintained "Essex", meaning the kids wear expensive brands (mostly fake) but don't have orange faces and bleached hair. A more rough look. Then over the last 10 years the word has become associated with 'lower classes' dressing in that style.

So we're probably both correct, but all I'm saying is generally when you hear the word 'chav' in the UK, most don't think of Gypsies, but of youths wearing designer gear.

The word 'Pikey' is the word in that area that is associated with travellers.

Also, they are mostly Irish Travellers...not Romany

The majority of UK citizens are intolerant of the gypsies because of the absolute filth some of them leave behind when they move on. Filth, and huge amounts of debris that local goverments have to spend alot of OUR money to clean up after they've gone.

In my town, they set set up camp on a school sports playing field for weeks on end, they totally ruined it with their fires and ploughed it all up with their illegal vehicles. The kids couldn't have their sports lessons because of the illegal camp. Human faeces, used toilet paper and soiled sanitary items were found deposited all around the perimeter of the school sports field after they left. This is besides the burned out vehicles and other rubbish they leave behind for the rest of us to clean up after them, it is disgusting.

Our local goverment have to spend thousands of our tax money to make good the terrible damage they cause. They have no respect for other people's property, they take down fences to gain illegal access for their camps, they pay no rent, they pay no taxes, they contribute nothing.

If the authorities attempt legal action to move them on, that is more money spent, and for nothing too. Because before the legalities are processed (which can take weeks), they have moved on, they have no intention of putting right the damage they do.

It isn't the fact that they are travellers or gypsies that people object to at all, it is the absolute devastation they leave behind in our towns that we have to pay to clean up. Hard-earned money that you and I have to pay in local taxes, and could be used for a much better purpose.

Why can't they invest in their own land for their camps around the UK? Then they can clean up their own filth, or live in it.

Originally posted by dsm1664
reply to post by destination now

 

I'm thinking it's probably just a coincidence.

I was brought up in Gravesend, known by my friends and I as Gravo. People probably did the same thing with Chatham, and called people 'Chavs'.

So in certain areas of the UK, there are different meanings of the word. Doesn’t mean that people from Chatham adopted an old Gypsy word. The evolution of the word in Kent, was derived by people in Chatham being called 'Chavs'. That area of Kent is like a less maintained "Essex", meaning the kids wear expensive brands (mostly fake) but don't have orange faces and bleached hair. A more rough look. Then over the last 10 years the word has become associated with 'lower classes' dressing in that style.

So we're probably both correct, but all I'm saying is generally when you hear the word 'chav' in the UK, most don't think of Gypsies, but of youths wearing designer gear.

The word 'Pikey' is the word in that area that is associated with travellers.

Also, they are mostly Irish Travellers...not Romany

edit on 17-2-2011 by dsm1664 because: (no reason given)

I originally mentioned the word chavvi to another poster because we were talking about the use of an almost secret language used by the travellers, both Irish and Romany (though that in itself is debatable as there are Scottish and English travellers as well, who are not Romany, they're just travellers, possibly descended from Irish in the dim and distant past!)

I am well aware of the contemporary use of the word Chav, I mentioned it in the previous post when I was discussing the travellers use of dialects, and in that post also referred to the use of the word Pikey, often used to describe travellers, at no point did I say the travellers were referred to as Chavs, but it is commonly thought that the word Chav, has in fact been derived from the original AngloRomany word Chavvi, which is still used by the travelling community today to describe young children.

Perhaps you are right, and a completely separate derivation of an inhabitant of Chatham, grew up along side the derivation of Chavvi, with both arriving at the new word Chav. So we will agree to differ on that point.

However, I did agree with your first post and starred it, as I do believe the bad elements of the travelling community have only themselves to blame for the bad press that they get and I don't think we can be described as racists for having issues with the blatant disregard that certain groups of travellers have for the areas that they move into and subsequently destroy.

Peace

Originally posted by destination now
reply to post by halfoldman

 

Yes, I've seen Brad attempting to mimic the "pikey" speak. The language is an art form....is it Irish? Is it Scottish? Is it English? It changes all the time, as do their names, with whole communities adopting a group name, with variations of spelling e.g. McDonah, McDonagh, MacDonach and every other conceivable variation (and that's just one of the Scottish versions!) The trick is to speak quickly in an indeterminable accent, so that no one really catches what is being said (useful for negotiating a contract to tarmac your driveway, then changing the terms of the contract once they've ripped your old driveway up!) And if you've seen the film, you'll see that the reluctance to deal with the "pikeys" is clearly portrayed, and for good reason! But I think the reason that they are sort of portrayed as heroes is as much to do with Guy Ritchie's anti-hero theme in his movies, as opposed to a genuine attempt to portray the "pikeys" as decent people.

Yes, there are many genuine, decent people within the Gypsy Travelling communities, but there is also a very negative, problematic section as well, and it's not limited to just a few, there are hoardes of non specfic travellers, who do cause many problems in many areas, not just, as the OP suggests for the rich landowners, but for ordinary people in towns all around the UK.

Yes they certainly do enjoy tarmacing drives, they did my Dads, it turned out not to be the bargain he'd hoped for. Just to lighten the thread a little though, this tv programme is top class entertainment, better than any soap opera ive ever seen, and apparantly it pulled in more viewers than the Brit awards, ITS OFFICIAL !! "dirty thieving gypos" are more entertaining than Rihanna and Justin Bieber !!!
I have to say though, the last thing these people came across as was dirty, ive never seen such immaculate living quarters, maybe they leave their rubbish outside ?? Also they certainly have a lot of ready cash around for labourers and farm hands. Im not having a go, just my observations. Another point id like to bring up (and anyone who watched the programme may agree with me) they gypsies in the programme all seemed to have this confidence instilled in them, an arrogance really, even the kids, I actually found myself thinking at one point about this little eight year old gypsy girl "i wouldnt like to get into a fight with her". And can these people dance??? CAN THESE PEOPLE DANCE !! These people can bump and grind like no white person could or should be able to!! Lastly, and then my rant over I promise, these folks bodies are the ultimate in physical perfection, the men are slim and muscular, and the woman are tall, long legged, busty curveceous and slim with the most beautiful hair, if this is what the outdoor life does for you then im gonna set up home in my back garden with my tent.
Does anyone want theyre drive tarmaced ?

No offence, but these people bring it on themselves.

If they're not threatening school children or pregnant women, firing fireworks at passing vehicles, slamming bull dozers into each others compounds, dumping human waste or burning crap, stealing roof tiles or setting angry dogs on people, or setting cats on fire.... Then they're up to no good. Fighting, stealing, racially abusing people and dealing drugs.

All these events occured in my home town.

Bunch of scum.

Go on.. I dare you to accuse me of racism.

I'm referring to the Irish travellers.

Where I'm from originally (Romania), racism against gypsies is not only acceptable, it's almost institutionalised. The media really loves to promote it, I guess it sells.

Gypsies are the perfect scapegoat there: you can blame any and everything on them. Seriously. Like, for instance, Romania won't get accepted into Schengen space this spring, it's the fault of the gypsies, because they trashed the image of Romania in the EU.

I really had to laugh a while ago, when they were trying to pass a law in the Parliament, to change the official Roma name back to Gypsy. Because, you know, Roma and Romany sound too similar to Romania and Romanian, and that hurts the feelings of the always oversensitive Romanians, afraid they might get confused with Gypsies.

reply to post by thedoctorswife


Sorry to burst your bubble somewhat, but the gypsy travellers are no different to any other group of people. There are beautiful ones, ugly ones, fat ones, thin ones, fit ones, good dancers, bad dancers etc etc

Don't forget, you're basing your opinion on a TV show, where the 'characters' have been hand picked by the production team. Of course they are all travellers, but they are no more representative of the traveller communities than Hollyoaks is of teenagers and young adults living in Chester.

As part of my job a few years ago, I did outreach work on a travellers site (which I posted about on another thread in this forum, that was about the TV series, so won't go into it again, go and read if you wish) And believe me, in terms of physical appearance, dancing ability, fitness etc, they are no different to any other group. Although there is a far greater consumption of alcohol, particularly in the young men, than in most other social groups, and both men and women generally have a lower life expectancy due to their lifestyle than other social groups Gypsies and Travellers stats Yes, I agree that certain groups of the travellers do have very high personal hygiene standards, as well as taking pride (to an obessive level) in the cleanliness of their accommodation and surroundings, but there are others who don't, and when the ones who don't pitch up on your doorstep, you know about it!

As I have said on the other thread, I have both positive and negative experiences of the traveller communities, but I can assure you, that this programme does not give the full, honest picture of the overall situation with all of the gypsy traveller communities in the UK

reply to post by destination now
My post was meant to be taken with a little humour and a pinch of salt. Of course my opinions (not even opinions more like observations) were based on the tv programme I said as much. I was trying to lighten the mood with a little humour, of course people from all walks of life come in different shapes and sizes, and as a little girl remember having a MASSIVE gypsy site near where i live. My apologies for thinking that posters on ats where still allowed to have a laugh.

Originally posted by thedoctorswife
reply to post by destination now

 

My post was meant to be taken with a little humour and a pinch of salt. Of course my opinions (not even opinions more like observations) were based on the tv programme I said as much. I was trying to lighten the mood with a little humour, of course people from all walks of life come in different shapes and sizes, and as a little girl remember having a MASSIVE gypsy site near where i live. My apologies for thinking that posters on ats where still allowed to have a laugh.

Sorry for misunderstanding you, but it read more like you were giving your opinion, as you didn't indicate any other point of view in your post. My psychic abilities are somewhat diminished today!

reply to post by destination now
Thats fine, i was just really talking about the way that they were portrayed in the tv show, im not in the mood to discuss social issues today, what with it being SPRING outside and lovely and warm, hope its nice in Scotland.

reply to post by thedoctorswife


Nope, it's dull, wet and freezing...which probably accounts for my dour mood and lack of humour

Glad the sun is shining for you...Enjoy!

reply to post by destination now
I know this is off topic, but yeah were having one of those very rare british springtime days, yknow where the sun shines its warmth on you, and you feel really happy, it changes everyones mood, i picked the kids up from school about an hour ago and everyone was squinting in the sunlight cos they were'nt used to it, but the sun really does make everyone happier maybe thats why us brits are often such a bunch of miseries. Hope its coming up to you soon. x

NOTE the content may be deemed exstream to some. this is NOT a hate post! just the opinions of myself
drawn upon from personal experience and other peoples views of Gypsy's in my area

Well the way i see it there are 2 distinct type of Gypsy's. for example type A: these are the Romany
type Gypsy's these are the true travelling type that live there existence in a horse drawn caravan and
spend there life travelling from place to place never marrying outside of the family and coursing limited
trouble to society. they tend to be self-sufficient and live "off the grid" as it were. More traditional.

Then there is Type B: These are the one's who live in council houses or on allocated sites set aside
from the town on the outskirts.These will happily tarmac your drive for an extortionate amount and will
resort to bullying tactics to pay for the shoddy work IF you fall victim to these fake Gypsy's i pity you!

type B: Also have a habit of making the crime rate increase in the area where they reside, they appear
to work above the reach of the law as they go by aliases such as "smith" so its very hard to get the
police to do anything about these non Romany type's as they rule through fear & intimidation.

There is not much you can do if you fall victim to these folk as they are very good at breaking laws
and not ever being bought to justice, beware this type of Gypsy these give true travellers a
bad name! They also have NO PROBLEM exploiting the well-fair system to there advantage.

So when you have seen first hand accounts of the two type's it is hard not to be Racist about type B:
This post is just MY interpretation of the Two distinct Type's. I live close to BOTH Type's and have formed
this conclusion from indirect interactions with both type's and also other peoples views in this area of the UK.

IF the MOD's feel this is a little insensitive and deem it NOT FIT FOR THIS THREAD please remove.
I do NOT want a warn or ban cos of my views. This post is not intended to promote hate.thankyou.

reply to post by thedoctorswife

I have to say though, the last thing these people came across as was dirty, ive never seen such immaculate living quarters, maybe they leave their rubbish outside ??

Yes they certainly do. Not only do they leave it outside, they leave it behind when they move on.

Their caravans are spotless yes, but this isn't why people say they're dirty.
Gypsies don't use their indoor toilets, because they say it's unclean and dirty to have and use a toilet inside their caravans and they won't use them. They'd rather 'go' behind a park hedgerow or behind a tree, in your garden, or anywhere, and the local residents have no choice but to clean it up when they've gone and at their own expense, adding insult to injury.

I've watched the program on tv too, and I heard them spouting how proud and honourable they are. Well they certainly fooled me!!! Proud and honourable my arse!

I also heard them complaining that the publicans in Appleby all close their licensed premises during the horse fair event every year, accusing the locals of racism and discrimination. But they're not guilty of racism at all, it's because the gypsies have smashed the places up every year and the locals are sick to death of them. Sick to death of cleaning up after them every year. And who can blame them? Certainly not me.

Maybe the tv producers should go back to Appleby after these gypsies have gone, and film the disgusting filth they have left behind.

They deserve and get no respect from me and people in my town, I've seen first hand the piles of she-it, domestic waste, empty gas bottles etc, all just left strewn around.

So, if objecting to all this is being racist - then I am racist.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


Oh dear seems the mods deemed your post to be in breach of the T &C guidelines love.
sorry I never got to read it. It was in Response to my post after all so really i should be allowed
to hear your views but hey ho.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


IF you're still following this thread I agreed with your earlier posts and am interested in what you have to have to say.. Can you please try again? (Sans the reason for violation of course)

I would like to point out that while I do not live in the UK and am not familiar with the traveler groups being mentioned many of the above posts sound bigoted to me.

I once knew a woman who hated all people of a certain ethnicity because her grandfather was stabbed in the back and robbed by a person of said ethnicity. To me this sounds like a similar thing. Just because you have had negative dealings with a group of people does not follow all people born into that group are the same.

We have similar things in the US. One form would be outlaw bikers. They travel from place to place, sell drugs, get into fights, steal, etc etc. These people are mostly Anglo Caucasian so it isn't a racial issue. I can only imagine if they were another ethnic group all of the sudden the entire ethnic group would be a pariah.

Strictly from a theoretical anthropological perspective I call bull that the negative activities are associated with an ethnic group rather than just going after the individual trouble makers as they arise.