I hope that......

I am neither a pacifist nor do I 'sit on the fence', but I do refuse to blindly adhere to one side or another in any argument. I do not make my mind up on any subject until I have garnered as much information and facts on the subject as I can. Like Garzok and AF 1 I do enjoy hearing others opinions. I do understand the patriotism being displayed at the moment, but in some recent threads full of gung ho outpourings it does feel pointless to reply as you know all you're going to get is a mouthful of bile.
A lot of the pro-war people seem to misunderstand their opponent�s stance. We Know Saddam is evil. We know he should be removed. What I am against is George W. Bush and his administration, their disregard for the rest of the world and their opinions, their lies and duplicity, their true motivation for this attack, the very real signs of imperialism, and the apparent disregard for the consequences of their actions amongst many, many, other factors. Not least that a decision of this magnitude, with such consequences for the whole world should be made for all of us by a right wing fundamentalist Christian with a dark past and who, by anyone�s standards is a few sandwiches short of a picnic.
I don't want to argue these points here, that�s not what this thread is for, but it is what this site is for.

I don't know if you include me in the 'pro-war' people who are bringing down the board by insulting others, but I will try to explain what 'I' think.

I think that some of the 'anti-war' posters are using the same horrible arguments and questions over and over again. Arguments like-
1) Why do you follow your leader blindly? I do not follow sombody blindly, just like you would not blindly wander off in the dark.
2) Why do you want innocent people to die? I do not want innocent people to die, I want innocent people to cease being killed. This can be done by taking Saddam out of power.
3) What has Iraq ever done to you? Not Iraq, Saddam. Saddam agreed to disarm UNCONDITIONALLY.
4) Why don't you go after OBL? We have troops looking for them as we speak. We will find him, we have not abandoned the search.
5) Why don't you go after North Korea? You seem to favor diplomacy, couldn't we find a diplomatic solution to this problem? This has not been going on for 12 years, like the Saddam issue.
6) Saddam is disarming. No, he's playing a game of cat and mouse.
7) Saddam has disarmed. There is no proof that he has. In fact, he has dodged around us for 12 years, if he really had disarmed wouldn't he come right out and show that he did when he did?
8) Bush is the anti-christ. Seriously, I've heard this one. It's so ridiculous that I can't even find an argument against it. If I said you were the anti-christ, how could you prove you weren't?
9) Why didn't we give them more time to disarm. We gave him 12 years.
10) Bush is or was an alchoholic and/or a druggie.So what? He is president, and that has nothing to do with Iraq which remains a threat whether Bush has smoked pot, done coke, or drank liquor.
11) American citizens have been diluted by their media.I agree, but isn't our media anti-war? Hmmm...
12) America is in a 'blood for oil' war. We don't need more oil. We have plenty. We are researching hydrogen power now, in hopes that it will erase our dependency on oil.

I figured I'd stop at an even dozen, but I could go on and on. Some of these arguments or questions make sense,(number 11) and are a logical thing to ask. But then again, some of them sound like creative lies.

I've responded to these arguments the best I can, but when they are asked over and over, and you answer them the same way, over and over, it gets old really fast.

I admit that not all of the anti-war posters on this board are like this, but a lot of them are. Some post really well, they make an argument and back it up with evidence, like you're supposed to.

If I have sounded sarcastic, angry, or insulting I don't mean it, I just get sick of the same pointless comments like the ones posted above. Please, I beg you, come up with some arguments that have substance, or back up the ones you already have.

Kegs, not gonna argue with you. I will admit, ok, I am for America. I make my money here, I live here, I have a better life here than I would anywhere else. Who will deal with these madmen then? Please tell me. We are there to liberate innocent people that are being used as experiments, raping, torturing, etc......then perhaps Saddam can take over Kuwait again and burn the oil again right? People hate Americans. We give billions in aid to suffering nations......my money goes to this, I bust my @ss to make a living, and if I want to continue living here and being happy so be it....we are bad people? Hmm...

Kegs,you've hit the nail on the head.I concur.

I,like many others,know that the USA will win and I can guess it may be swift.I also know that this will be used as justification for the next war.When war holds no danger for those who start them,they become infinitely easier to start and infinitely more dangerous for the rest of the world.
Does everybody think Russia,France,and China's Nuclear weapons were turned into ploughshares?
50 years of peace were founded on the fear of Mutually Assured Destruction.The US President believes that the USA has a decisive advantage over everybody else.He believes a 21st century world war is win-able.In a conventional war he may be right but do not back others into a corner.Russia still has enough Nuclear weapons to turn the USA into a parking lot.

The USA has forgotten how to respect others.
By that I don't mean the USA should crawl to others but they should not disrespect others.Luckily other foreign leaders recognise that Bush is a retard so they are putting a long pole between themselves and him but it only takes an idiot of a similar mentality to Bush and we are all in the #.

Joe, that exactly what I was going to say about the pro-war people but I thought it would be too offensive. Funny that eh? I've heard those arguments a billion times too mate, and frankly the ones I don�t agree with are irrelevant to the bigger picture.

U.S Patriot, When have I in this thread said anything about the American people? Another common misconception. I have nothing against the American people. I've worked in America and found the people friendly and hospitable. It's Governments I have the problem with, and not just yours. You should remember that the next time your friends are slagging off the French people. It works both ways.

John Bull 1
Luckily other foreign leaders recognise that Bush is a retard so they are putting a long pole between themselves and him but it only takes an idiot of a similar mentality to Bush and we are all in the shoot.

So your calling Pro-war people idiots now? How did you even get that award? I agree with everything Bush is doing, I'm not an Idiot. I will not resort to a 'insult-slinging' contest with you.

Is it wrong to take a dictator out of power that kills his own people, people who have never done anything wrong? Is it wrong to want to disarm this dictator so that he cannot use his weapons against more helpless people. Is it wrong to want to help a country with no economy? Is it wrong to want to put a stop to terrorism or any aid going toward terrorism?

Bush said, after 9/11, that we would seek out terrorists. We would stop those who commit terrorist acts, those who harbor terrorists, and those who help terrorists. Everyone agreed with him then. Have you suddenly changed your mind and thought, 'terrorism is good, Bush is bad'?

I agree with all your points joe, although the red on the grey background is hard on the eyes. I am very pro-war and I believe our reasons for removing Saddam are justified. I have been guilty of letting my patriotism get in the way of some debates, but I think I'm open minded to see both sides. I believe if you are in the US or UK, whether you agree with the war or not, you should still behind the troops fighting this battle, for they are trying to preserve our freedoms. I am also a supporter of Bush, although I don't think he is anywhere near our best President ever. Johnbull, how can you call Bush a retard and an idiot? I can see if you dont like him, but I doubt a retard could work his way into the WhiteHouse, lets be real here.

It's very easy to call him a retard.The man can hardly put together a coherent sentence=Retard.

Get out more.Do you think my voice is alone in the world?

Sorry about the red, I have a different theme, my background is dark blue. The red looks cool on dark blue.

Anyway, Bush is not a retard. I understand his sentences perfectly well. So what if he mispeaks every once and a while, that doesn't make him any less intelligent. You would do much worse in front of an audience as big as our nation, unless of course, you are a professional public speaker.

I like Bush, I think he's smarter than you want to admit.

John, I don't think it's poosible to silence those who disagree. I haven't noticed any blocking of the dissenters, either here or in the rest of the world. If you are suggesting that those of us who are not in agreement with the dissenters should not respond, then you are suggesting your alleged roles be reversed.

William, I have to disagree with you that Bush is a total failure in the world of diplomacy. There are numurous reasons there was a definite timeline for this operation. These reasons are known to all, including those who are against America strategically, and those who simplywant to embarass America. Saddam used "diplomacy" to his advantage to prolong dialogue, those who wish to embarass America allowed him to, and general diplomatic incompetence further aggravated the situation.

Necessity was obvious, as well was U.N. impotence. Bush has displayed character and backbone. The world should be grateful that the last remaining superpower is led by a man of character instead of a follower of the winds of popularity polls.

[Edited on 20-3-2003 by Java]

No,He is not smarter than I would like to admit.

Bush is a retard, what a senseless and childish remark. We used to call each other "retards" in 3rd grade. Whether you like Bush or not, there is no way he could have reached the point where he is without being somewhat intelligent. I'm a little surprised, your posts are usually well argued. I will now exit this silly debate as quickly as I entered it.

Originally posted by John bull 1
It's very easy to call him a retard.The man can hardly put together a coherent sentence=Retard.

Get out more.Do you think my voice is alone in the world?

You can do better? You just hat Americans. Pretty much.
Be thankful for your freedom. We've had many excelent leaders that's what makes it great here. I think The Brit's are excellent educated folks. Granted we have a continent and you are an island we still have one thing in common we have freedom. If people hate government
move to uh.........oh yeah Iraq. See if you like it. I am am sure you'll be back at Heatrow with your bags packed.

I commend you PA.

But I must comment that a 'retard' is a person whose IQ is below 70(I think). His is obviously above that.

This is my last post today. I will now exit.
UNTIL TOMORROW!

What does it take to get the rest of the world to back the United States? Another 12 years of failed inspections? How many Iraqi civilians will die between now and then? Or maybe we should just wait till Saddam dies, and then maybe one of his sons will be much more cooperative........

Typical. Ignore the decent points made and latch on to John's use of the word 'retard' to describe Bush. If you hadn't noticed your pro war allies on the forum use much worse words to describe their opponents at almost every opportunity. And for those who keep going on about '12 years' why don�t you check out how many years the U.S has blocked Sanctions and repercussions against Israel?

Originally posted by kegs
Typical. Ignore the decent points made and latch on to John's use of the word 'retard' to describe Bush. If you hadn't noticed your pro war allies on the forum use much worse words to describe their opponents at almost every opportunity. And for those who keep going on about '12 years' why don�t you check out how many years the U.S has blocked Sanctions and repercussions against Israel?

I don't care what the other pro war people argue, they're not me. Do you see me insulting people on purpose? The twelve year issue makes sense because Saddam agreed to disarm, the UN agreed, why not enforce it?

I haven't heard anything about the US blocking scanctions and repercussions against Israel, and that's not the issue, so don't go changing the subject. The person we are looking at is Saddam and his relation with the US.

This is where I find the 'Anti-war people know nothing' argument amusing. I am not changing the subject, the point I made is very pertinent to this argument. If you look at how many times the U.S has blocked action against Israel, you will begin to see the duplicity in the U.S arguments for war on Iraq, the huge gaping holes that any competent lawyer could drive a truck through and you will find some light is shed on the real reasons for what is going on in the world today. I hardly find that irrelevant.

[Edited on 21-3-2003 by kegs]

Kegs arguement that the US has used it's veto power to aid Isreal is valid. Personally, I find the way we turn a blind eye to what Isreal does appalling... The Palestinians however, behave far worse, so I really feel no pity for them either though. They could have had an independent state years ago, but they weren't happy with ONLY 90% of their demands being met...

Good point kegs...
The world is nuts. Everyone is doing most anything to make some quick cash. Russia selling things to Iraq, the US turning a blind eye to Israel, the UN not enforcing their resolutions, North Korea threatening everyone and possibly selling WMD to violent countries...

I could go on, but what's the point. I think all of this is wrong, and that we should make a real united nations, where ALL nations are members, and ALL have a vote.(equal or weighted, doesn't matter to me) But for now, I think we should work on getting rid of WMD, enforcing resolutions, and shrugging off our dependancy on oil.