Sundogs Created by "Chemtrails"?

reply to post by noworldorder2012

I don't know how old you are, but I'm fast approaching 50, and have seen contrails my entire life. My father commuted by air through most of my childhood, so planes were something I noticed. They made the same lines they do now. The differences in the quantity of flights means there are more lines now. That is a real 1+1=2 kind of thing.
"Chemtrail" theory originated on the internet, by people who make money selling their books, videos and personal appearances to people who think the internet is a good source of knowledge without looking up things for themselves or questioning where they are getting their information.
I researched "What are the white lines behind some airplanes?" and found links to both sides. The science made sense, and the "chemtrail" theorist were completely nonsense. If you knew how the sky worked, you would know it's nonsense, too.

Originally posted by Chadwickus
Well the two can be related, just not in the way you've perceived.

Contrails form in cold air, at the same height as cirrus clouds.

Strangely enough (not really), Sundogs are formed by ice crystals deflecting sunlight at the cirrus cloud level.

Agreed. Both conventional contrails and sundogs are related to ice crystal formation. So, if there were more conventional contrails in the atmosphere it would indicate a higher likelihood of sundogs appearing as the sundogs are dependant upon refraction of light off of ice crystals in the atmosphere.

Originally posted by stars15k
reply to post by noworldorder2012

 

I don't know how old you are, but I'm fast approaching 50, and have seen contrails my entire life. My father commuted by air through most of my childhood, so planes were something I noticed. They made the same lines they do now. The differences in the quantity of flights means there are more lines now. That is a real 1+1=2 kind of thing.
"Chemtrail" theory originated on the internet, by people who make money selling their books, videos and personal appearances to people who think the internet is a good source of knowledge without looking up things for themselves or questioning where they are getting their information.
I researched "What are the white lines behind some airplanes?" and found links to both sides. The science made sense, and the "chemtrail" theorist were completely nonsense. If you knew how the sky worked, you would know it's nonsense, too.

Oh now you disinfo agent, you cant be bringing up that there are more flights, more of those are jets, and they are flying higher and higher for more fuel efficiency. Thats just debunker silly talk, we do not need reality in here

But one thing I want to know is, when did all the science and weather ignorance in our society start? It seems as we have gotten more technological, that our scientific literacy has decreased, and I would guess markedly so since the 1950s. Look at how many chemtrailers do not believe in cirrus clouds, think it is not always going to be cold at 35000 ft (summer for example), and actually think old books and movies have been edited to put in contrails, or that new cloud types were invented to hide chemtrailing, or that do not understand water is a byproduct of burning fossil fuels. Or think that aluminum is present in the soil, (which is invariably will be in some form) that it cant possibly natural and must come from airplanes

Even Ancient mariners and farmers understood that you could get more cirrus clouds before some kinds of weather events too for that matter.

reply to post by firepilot

I love how you try yo put words in my mouth and try to group me in with a vast majority of people you call "chemtrailers". When did anybody say they didn't believe in cirrus clouds anyway? How is the science behind chemical trails flawed? How do you think military chaff works? I'm stating that it is possible for both to exist, which is unrefutable. And besides, whether contrails or chemtrails, the OP is about the possible uses for purposely creating these trails to create sundogs. Carefully read my previous posts. Unless you're going to have an intelligent conversation free from ignorance or biased-ness, I suggest you steer clear from this thread. What? Did stars15k send you over here or something?

Here guys, have fun with this, won't you?
Contrails Are Chemtrails

Case Orange rejects use of the term 'chemtrails' because it is associated with amateur conspiracy theorists. The only credible document it could find that uses it is the Space Preservation Act of 2001 introduced by U.S. Representative Dennis Kucinich (D-OH). [7]  H.R. 2977 sought to ban the use of exotic weapon systems that would damage climate, weather, techtonic, and biological systems. Though later removed, no version of the bill ever became law.

Instead, the writers prefer the term ‘persistent contrails’ to describe the phenomenon since all contrails are chemtrails. ‘Persistent contrails distinguishes those that contain weather-altering additives from those that represent normal aircraft exhaust that dissipates after a few seconds or minutes.

www.globalresearch.ca...
Now see, I've got you on a technicality!

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


That's very interesting about the ship tracks...never heard of that before, but don't you find it interesting the tests that have been done to see their effect on the atmosphere, by using these hydrogloric particals to speed nucleation? Couldn't contrails then, in turn, be used as more of a tool for climate control in some cases? Especially if the hydrogloric particals were added to the equation? Let's see if I can further explain...

The potential of condensation trails (contrails) from jet aircraft to affect regional- 1, 2, 3 scale surface temperatures has been debated for years but was difficult to verify until an opportunity arose as a result of the three-day grounding of all commercial aircraft in the United States in the aftermath of the terrorist attacks on 11 September 2001. Here we show that there was an anomalous increase in the average diurnal temperature range (that is, the difference between the daytime maximum and night-time minimum temperatures) for the period 11–14 September 2001. Because persisting contrails can reduce the transfer of both incoming solar 4, 5 and outgoing infrared radiation 4, 5 and so reduce the daily temperature range, we and outgoing infrared radiation and so reduce the daily temperature range, we attribute at least a portion of this anomaly to the absence of contrails over this period.

www.atmos.washington.edu...

There's a significant amount of study and experimentation in this subject and it makes me wonder if they decided to use it to their advantage ("they" being the military, navy or possibly NOAA)....

Here's another interesting article which goes into great detail on the matter:

Since commercial airliners routinely fly in the region where cold cirrus clouds exist, it is hoped that the seeding material could either be (1) dissolved or suspended in their jet fuel and later burned with the fuel to create seeding aerosol, or (2) injected into the hot engine exhaust, which should vaporize the seeding material, allowing it to condense as aerosol in the jet contrail. The objective would not be to seed specific cloud systems but rather to build up a background concentration of aerosol seeding material so that the air masses that cirrus will form in will contain the appropriate amount of seeding material to produce larger ice crystals. Since the residence time of seeding material might be on the order of 1–2 weeks, release rates of seeding material would need to account for this. With the delivery process already existing, this geoengineering approach may be less expensive than other proposed approaches.

iopscience.iop.org...
Thank you ATG for being civil in this debate.

Originally posted by firepilot
Even Ancient mariners and farmers understood that you could get more cirrus clouds before some kinds of weather events too for that matter.

In case people want an example, I found this image (you may want to view it on it's own):

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/7b35603a1e4d.gif[/atsimg]

Wind direction in image is from left to right, so if you were seeing the Cirrus you would have the rain coming towards you.

Image from www.free-online-private-pilot-ground-school.com...

NWO2012 I'm getting confused by what your point of view on this is

Are you saying "they" COULD do it, as opposed to "they" ARE doing it?

If that is your point then yep I agree. It would be more-or-less trivial* to rig a sprayer or 2 & some tanks on a commercial airliner to spray something at 30,000 feet.

* - the paperwork would be a nightmare, but technically no great problem at all IMO

the quote about persistant contrails being those that contain weather altering substances is a red herring - that is exactly what the chemhoaxers have called chemtrails for the last 13 years or so - trying to change the terminology doesn't matter a whit - it isn't happening whatever it is called.

PS what are you going to do when 2013 rolls around and there isn't a world order? Claim victory of course...what else?

I wasnt even commenting on you, I was commenting more on the post that I quoted from than anything else.

And yes, there have been chemtrailers who disagree with cirrus, or think it is not always cold up high, or deny that it is even always cold up high, or that if they live in a desert, then their cant be contrails.

Yes, I know how chaff works, and it is NOT what most all chemtrailers claim. It is not a spray, it is not particles either. It is bundles of aluminum in precise lengths, meant to fool enemy missiles and make another radar target. Chemtrailers have made claims about it being a powder, or even a liquid at times. chemtrailers make some ludicrious statements that have no basis in science. And we havent even gotten to their statements about airplanes.

And yes, it is refutable that there are chemtrails, because its never been proved. It is a mantra of the chemtrail religion, than contrails can not persist, and that is entirely refutable.

double post

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
NWO2012 I'm getting confused by what your point of view on this is

Are you saying "they" COULD do it, as opposed to "they" ARE doing it?

If that is your point then yep I agree. It would be more-or-less trivial* to rig a sprayer or 2 & some tanks on a commercial airliner to spray something at 30,000 feet.

* - the paperwork would be a nightmare, but technically no great problem at all IMO

Sorry for the confusion. What I'm saying is it is completely possible for contrails/chemtrails to be purposely used to affect weather, and it's impossible for either of us to be completely sure.

the quote about persistant contrails being those that contain weather altering substances is a red herring - that is exactly what the chemhoaxers have called chemtrails for the last 13 years or so - trying to change the terminology doesn't matter a whit - it isn't happening whatever it is called.

Of course, that is, for someone who believes it's not a factor.

PS what are you going to do when 2013 rolls around and there isn't a world order? Claim victory of course...what else?

If you don't believe there is a powerful group of people conspiring to create a secular global government, then I'm sorry sir but you are asleep. Unless you're only referring to the date, which is in my opinion the official goal date of the elite's enactment of their plan. That's just my opinion though. It could be in 10 years. Either way I'm against it.

Originally posted by firepilot
I wasnt even commenting on you, I was commenting more on the post that I quoted from than anything else.

In that case I'll ignore your further posts.

And yes, there have been chemtrailers who disagree with cirrus, or think it is not always cold up high, or deny that it is even always cold up high, or that if they live in a desert, then their cant be contrails.

Well I guess I'm not your typical "chemtrailer".

Yes, I know how chaff works, and it is NOT what most all chemtrailers claim. It is not a spray, it is not particles either. It is bundles of aluminum in precise lengths, meant to fool enemy missiles and make another radar target. Chemtrailers have made claims about it being a powder, or even a liquid at times. chemtrailers make some ludicrious statements that have no basis in science. And we havent even gotten to their statements about airplanes.

I know what chaff is as well, and more precisely it is fine fibers of metal-coated glass that, when released, form a cloud that's designed to mock an aircraft on radar. They can also stay in the atmosphere for up to hours depending on the height released.

And yes, it is refutable that there are chemtrails, because its never been proved.

I'm sorry, but doesn't this hold true for all conspiracy theories? In fact, isn't that what makes it a conspiracy theory?

It is a mantra of the chemtrail religion, than contrails can not persist, and that is entirely refutable.

That may be so, but it is not the basis of my particular argument, nor does it prove or disprove their existance.

But, that is the exact "proof" offered by chemtrailers.

1. Person, probably already conspiracy minded anyways, reads on chemtrail site that contrails can not persist, or that refraction in the air from clouds means chemicals.
2. That person notices that some contrails are persisting, or see a sundog
3. Aha! Thats proof of chemtrails, that site must be correct.

Only problem was the entire premise that chemtrail sites are based on, that contrails can not persist, is totally incorrect. Of course they can persist, the notion that ice crystals MUST evaporate/sublimate quickly in very cold temperatures is bizarre. Its a wonder that mountains can ever have snow, or that the north pole has any ice crystals there, or that Mt Everest has ice on it either. There would never be accumulations of snow and ice if they were so unstable that they would sublimate quickly.

reply to post by firepilot

Well actually I've just recently become a conspiring mind, haha. But I do see where you're coming from. Because when I first heard of them, the initial claims I heard did not co-align with a scientific standpoint. That's when I heard about the possible uses with HAARP and weather modification....but soon learned the controversy behind it. I think it's funny (whether or not they're real) that information can be so distorted from one side or the other. I'm glad for this argument because you're right about something here. The fact that the chemtrail theory was founded on how persistent contrails can be shows that it is a questionable theory from the start. You have to understand my argument, for if I were to just "believe you", I would not be denying ignorance.

But let's look at it as contrails for a moment, keeping in mind the experimentation with their effect on the climate. Let's say that, if they are contrails in the video, this could be a possible reason for a recurring sundog phenomenon caused by contrails. Are contrails being used to block direct sunlight? I often observe the sky, and many times see a pattern where these trails follow (in quantity) the Sun's slowly moving path across the sky. I'm not sure if anyone else has noticed this trend, but i have.

I actually just found that one article which is very interesting, and makes me think this might not just be coincidence. Maybe it's a "killing two birds with one stone" type of situation? Unless direct sunlight is the most likely place for contrails to form? That wouldn't make much sense though IMO...

reply to post by noworldorder2012


From your viewpoint on the ground it may appear they are trying to block out the sun with contrails but go a few miles in any direction and your viewpoint will change so now that contrail may be above or below the sun

Because commercial aircr\ft exhaust can on occasion produce manmade cirrus clouds (comprised of ice particles) then it can, obviously, result in sundogs appearing in contrails. Thanks to our obsession with flying, then sundogs are more common these days - especially if you know where and when to look. But the majority of people have probably never even seen one! Folk should learn to look up more, there's so much to see

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/54603f48c273.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/0336eda02c20.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/ba946068051f.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/a561b73b8224.jpg[/atsimg]

Originally posted by noworldorder2012

Sorry for the confusion. What I'm saying is it is completely possible for contrails/chemtrails to be purposely used to affect weather, and it's impossible for either of us to be completely sure.

OK - thanks for that.

you have put that in future tense - "to be purposely used" refers to something in the future - so we can agree that this is a possiblity.

I think perhaps tho your comment that it is impossible to be completely sure is refering to whether or not it is happening right now - and there I disagree.

for "it" to be happeing right now it would have to be a world wide effort involving millions of people and thousands of aircraft, and "it" would ahve to be putting something measureable into the atmosphere. So it would be entirely possible to show that "it" was happening by atmospheric sampling and examining the infrastructure required for "it" - the tanks, the production and transport faciltiites, the specifications of the engines through which "it" would pass would have to change - their combustion characteristics and temperatures, their maintenance requirements - all these things and many more would be proof positive that "it" was happening.

In the absence of any of that I am perfectly happy to conclude that "it" is definitely not happening, right now, as a 100% certainty with no doubt in my mind whatsoever. I guess there we disagree.

PS what are you going to do when 2013 rolls around and there isn't a world order? Claim victory of course...what else?

If you don't believe there is a powerful group of people conspiring to create a secular global government, then I'm sorry sir but you are asleep.

world Government has been the aim of hte elite for at least 5000 years of known history - I see no reason why it is any different now.

Unless you're only referring to the date, which is in my opinion the official goal date of the elite's enactment of their plan. That's just my opinion though. It could be in 10 years. Either way I'm against it.

Well yes your name is "2012", so it was only the date.

And personally I'm all for it - and the sooner the better. An immediate and obvious benefit would be that currency trading and most of hte intenational banking empires would disappear overnight - IMO it is a pox on the universe - the b@st@rds should be made to actually produce wealth for their living, not just sponge off others.

kind of ironic IMO - the sponging half of the bankers would largely be out of jobs as a result of the efforts of the filthy rich elite that most people think of as being bankers & financiers.

And secular government makes a lot more sense than the theocratic and psuedo-theocratic models from the Mid-east and the USA.

Of course I don't believe it is actually ever going to happen - humanity is far too diverse, there are far too many tin-pot dictators who want to be a big fish in a small pond rather than a microbe in a large pond and they have plenty of loyal zealots who will listen to whatever self-serving drivel they serve up to preserve their position at the expense of everyone else.

This is all just my pop-take on the effects of course - not a deep analysis by any means - but personally I don't see a down side to it.

so I guess we disagree on that too

reply to post by joejack


That actually makes complete sense, you're right. There's no way to tell precisely what angle you are facing the Sun, especially when compared to such a small area covered by these contrails.
reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


Thanks for your insight, and forgive me if I've come off as rude but some of the posts in this thread haven't been exactly....respectful? I've been trying to show civility, I even starred many posts; while at the same time I disagreed, I was greatful for participation and insight. But it seemed as if some members were trying to to get a rise out of me.
Every "rational explanation", though very coincidental, makes a great deal of sense. You actually have me on the fence about this.

Like I said, it's amazing the amount of research you can do on a subject and still have no clue what the truth is. There may be a large amount of information out there on chemtrails, and much of it makes sense, such as manipulation of the magnetosphere in cunjunction with HAARP, creation of clouds from the slow dissipation or expansion of smaller trails, etc. but a large amount can be explained in a rational manner. Things like this can make one rethink their knowledge in conspiracies altogether. If such a vast conspiracy theory could quite possibly actually be an hoax, who's to say what conspiracies are real. This was one of the first conspiracies I've heard of. And I'm not sure the amount of research you or others in this conversation have done on chemtrails, but believe me, there is A LOT of information out there. And not just on the internet. It's mentioned in countless books, videos, audiobooks, and many documents as well. This could possibly be one of the most elaborate fear-mongering conspiracy theories in existence. It's definately possible for chemtrails to exist. But given every circumstance it seems that any "unnatural" phenomena can still be explained in a rational manner.

This is all just my pop-take on the effects of course - not a deep analysis by any means - but personally I don't see a down side to it.

so I guess we disagree on that too

Well...let me reiterate, haha.

I believe a world government, when operated the correct way, would probably be the most wonderful achievement ever made by the human race. There is still potential for a true utopian world built upon love and happiness.

...But with those who now occupy positions of power, I do not think that we are even CLOSE to a society such as this. If an established world government ever did come into full existence, it would only be built from hate and suffering.

And about a world government being operated the "correct" way...

Of course I don't believe it is actually ever going to happen - humanity is far too diverse, there are far too many tin- pot dictators who want to be a big fish in a small pond rather than a microbe in a large pond and they have plenty of loyal zealots who will listen to whatever self-serving drivel they serve up to preserve their position at the expense of everyone else.

That's just it. Humanity is FAR too diverse to find equilibrium. Perfection to one may be chaos to another.....Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder....One man's trash is another man's treasure.

Yup.

Figures.

I had never heard of sun dogs until a few years ago. I see them often on my way home from work. They're always in the 'chemtrails'. Don't tell me that chemtrails do not exist. We watch them at work. Sky criss-crossed with them. What starts off as a clear, blue sky ends up with a unnatural cloud cover. They are very real. We see an occasional con trail too but they're shorter and disappear. I guess we'll never know the truth about what we're seeing but I know they are very real.

reply to post by noworldorder2012


Forgot to mention ... the video does not exist anymore. Wonder what happened to it?

NellahB
Don't tell me that chemtrails do not exist.

Chemtrails do not exist.

We watch them at work. Sky criss-crossed with them. What starts off as a clear, blue sky ends up with a unnatural cloud cover.

Sounds like contrails to me.

They are very real.

Contrails are indeed real

We see an occasional con trail too but they're shorter and disappear.

Arrant nonsense with no basis in reality whatsoever.

I guess we'll never know the truth about what we're seeing but I know they are very real.

Congratulations on contradicting yourself.

This place has a motto "deny ignorance" - not demonstrate it!

NellahB
Don't tell me that chemtrails do not exist. We watch them at work. Sky criss-crossed with them. What starts off as a clear, blue sky ends up with a unnatural cloud cover. They are very real.

Science explains very well how contrails form, how they can either last for hours, minutes, or seconds, all based on the conditions where they form. There is no set time a contrail is allowed to remain. This is science fact, and it is undisputed.

We see an occasional con trail too but they're shorter and disappear. I guess we'll never know the truth about what we're seeing but I know they are very real.

If you decide to use the computer for more than just a device to chat with, you can look up contrails and perhaps try to understand the science just a bit so you don't look so foolish in the future.