LEO running scared!

reply to post by boondock-saint

Not good for Mubarak or for the police state myth either.In fact....

reply to post by backinblack


I really think it is happening .. And my thoughts are scary.. Action = reaction!

Citizens are angry and are growing sick and tired of cops infringing on their rights. We are also seeing every last police brutality case on TV and net.. This is going to be a vicious circle.

People are losing trust in our police, and are starting to view them as Govt. thugs. Add this to the police having personnel cut backs... Cops stressed, over worked.. Citizens making 911 calls, with no cops for 1 hour +. All of this is stoking a fire.

Citizens start getting fed up and feel they have nothing to lose, hence the rise in killings and attacks.. Then, the police see this and start to over react to situations.. More of these end up on TV.. this is going to snowball into something very very bad in the near future. IMO

reply to post by whatukno


think what you will...

when the day comes that your kids have a chip in them issued by the government of Earth, and they are issued a job, and can voice their opinion, and they can only have 1 child, and are falsely accused of a crime but get no trial and spend years in prison or put to death.

when that day comes and your watching from your old folk home or the afterlife, all you will think is, "damn, my generation was the last hope for the free world, we could have stopped this madness. "

reply to post by Resurrectio


i agree, society is snowballing right now...
but what can i do about it?
absolutly nothin by myself

reply to post by iSHRED


Your basing your want to murder your fellow countrymen on Alex Jones' insane rantings?

Really?

Seriously?

Murder is not ok. No matter how you justify it, murder is not ok. Murdering your fellow countrymen instead of trying to find a peaceful and realistic solution to societies problems is not ok.

reply to post by iSHRED


Not running scared, but watch as local police departments start to merge with surrounding departments.
Happened in Utah. Started with Salt Lake County Sheriffs department merging with surrounding departments.
Now, city departments north of Salt Lake are looking to do the same.
we are witnessing the dissolve of local PDs.

reply to post by whatukno


I agree with WUK.(Not something that happens often)

I can't believe what I read. By now we're all aware that 2011 has been the most deadly to cops thus far. They feel(the police) that there is a war against cops.

To me, it seems like some salivating over the idea of killing cops is what is happening here.

Originally posted by iSHRED
reply to post by Resurrectio

 

i agree, society is snowballing right now...
but what can i do about it?
absolutly nothin by myself

Do you not suppose that advocating murder against fellow citizens, and advocating murder against the police(who are your fellow citizens) is part of the snowballing effect?

You're doing plenty, some of us would like you to stop.

So you know WUK and I are probably the furthest from each other politically.

Originally posted by iSHRED

Originally posted by whatukno
anyone who thinks this is a good idea is a traitor to the Constitution, and an Enemy of the United States

I'll use simple reasoning that could justify it based on what you said...

Legal System (LEO, Judges, & law makers) = Traitor to the constitution (many examples of this)
Legal System = Enemy of the United States
Legal System = terrorists

I dont think now is the time to take action, however sooner or later action will be our only response other then submission.

I used to be just like you. When I saw bad cops committing crimes it just pissed me off like you wouldn't believe. But even I didn't cite the Constitution as a reason to kill cops. Killing cops for perceived violation of the Constitution, especially since you don't know what you're talking about, is MURDER.

I know there are bad cops out there. But bad cops aren't cops, they are criminals. CRIMINALS. You don't throw the whole carton of eggs away if one of them is broken.

What happened the last time some dude used the Constitution as justification for murder in much the same way you have?(with a flawed and completely misguided interpretation)

This:

reply to post by projectvxn


Thank you for your rationality in this matter. I really appreciate cooler heads in discussions like this.

Although I may not agree with you politically a lot of the time, I do respect you and I respect your opinion.

I think that's what is missing in our world today, respect for sane rational differences of opinion, that is how real solutions to societies problems come about, not by the end of a gun, but by the end of a pen.

reply to post by projectvxn


Mmm hmmm...and this begs a lot of questions. But some people simply are not interested in asking them.

reply to post by whatukno


I think there are places where we can agree on things.

We don't have to agree with each other's politics, but basic things like:

You don't riot, you don't kill cops because of a McVeigh interpretation of the Constitution and D of I(we talked about this in chat yesterday), you don't kill politicians. We maintain order and our wits about us.

Quite frankly, what the OP is spouting is tripe and I think the OP should grow the hell up and realize just how WRONG he is.

You wanna fight the power? Learn how to use their power. You're not going to win any favors with Justice or God killing people over your "beliefs".

reply to post by iSHRED


The U.S. is NOT Mexico. What is happening down there is far worse than
anything we have ever seen here in the U.S. to date. Unfortunately their local
law enforcement in Mexico does not get all the support or resources they need on a daily basis,
and they do leave quite frequently, either voluntarily or involuntarily. When you have heads of
drug cartels, like "El Chapo" pushing his agenda of "accept a bribe or a bullet" and living in
a country where people like him are celebrated as Robin Hood type figures, what do you expect?

If you have ever been to a funeral of a LEO, you would know that they
become stronger, and more united as a group vs. running scared when one of their own is gunned down; that is the way it has always been, and will always be, at least in the U.S.

Not saying this is happening now.

However, if something like this does materialize in the U.S., then I say LEO have themselves to blame. Why? When many of them decided to change over from "to serve and protect" mode to being nothing more that predators and shills for cash-strapped local and state governments, they are almost inviting a backlash of some sort.

More supporting links:

source - cop lied

source - cops stealing from Crime Stoppers

Cops need to be "squeaky clean" ...

I believe it is true that law enforcement is being targeted more today than in the past.

I believe it is true that some, I repeat some LEOs are responsible for this in some part, by their attitude towards those they are sworn to protect.

But I also believe the problem goes much deeper. It is a runaway effect that goes something like this:

Joe Blow is an upstanding citizen; he works hard for what he has, pays his bills and taxes, and tries to live in peace. Bob Villain is a guy who has never lived this way, and instead tries to get by the best he can... usually by stealing from others. One day, Bob is looking for a good time and sees Joe's house. Bob thinks, "It's not fair that Joe has all those nice things and I can't afford to get a pack of smokes." So what does Bob do? He robs Joe's house.

Joe comes home and sees his house has been robbed. He does what he has been told to do all his life: he calls the police. A couple of officers come out to his house and make out a report. Joe wants his stuff back, or at least wants the satisfaction of knowing that this dastardly deed will be punished. No such luck. The police make out their report and leave, and Joe is left to clean up the mess.

So Joe buys an alarm system.

A couple of weeks later, Bob is out of money again. He revisits Joe's house and makes off with more of Joe's possessions. The alarm system works, but it works too slow. By the time the alarm is triggered at the CO, a verification call is placed to the home, another call is placed to the police department, and the police arrive at Joe's house, there is nothing left to do but make out another report. Joe comes home in the middle of it all and the police, thinking that Joe might be the suspect, begin to question him.

Now Joe is outraged.

During the questioning, Joe makes a few angry statements... after all, he has been robbed twice and the only thing the police have done (in his eyes) is accuse him of robbing his own house! The response is that Joe is threatened with arrest for being uncooperative.

So Joe buys a gun for protection.

A week later, Bob is out late at night and needs money again. He goes back to Joe's house and sneaks in. While he is again stealing Joe's belongings, Joe wakes up and hears someone rummaging around in his house. Joe grabs the gun and goes to protect his belongings. He's scared, sleepy, and a little disoriented, but he at least realizes not to just shoot at anything he sees. He catches Bob in the kitchen and yells for him to stop. Bob, trapped with Joe between him and the exit, sees the gun and makes a break for it. Joe shoots, but misses Bob, and Bob escapes.

Joe is now terrified. Bob buys a gun himself, on the black market.

A patrol car happens to hear the noise and arrives at the scene in time to see Bob running away. Inside the house he finds Joe, shaking visibly from terror and holding a gun. The cop draws his taser and tases Joe. "for his own safety". When Joe is able to talk, he realizes his mistake, but refuses to even acknowledge it. Instead, he arrests Joe for discharging a firearm in the city limits and takes him to the police station to be booked and released awaiting trial.

Joe now has a criminal record and has been robbed again for the third time in a month.

Is it any wonder Joe would become suspicious and distrustful of law enforcement?

Here's the same scenario not so long ago: Bob robs Joe the first time. Joe discovers the robbery and calls the police. The police can still do little more than make out a report, but one officer promises Joe they will patrol the area tighter. Two weeks later, Bob decides to break in again, but this time the police are already close to the scene because they are patrolling the area as promised, and manage to catch Bob exiting the house. At trial, Bob receives a nice long sentence.

Joe is happy. He has been robbed, but the guy doing it is caught. Joe goes to sleep that night satisfied.

The difference? In days gone by, the simple act of adding a patrol to combat an escalating problem resulted in a resolution to that problem. A simple statement conveying understanding of Joe's concerns ensured that the experience provided some satisfaction for Joe and prevented him from feeling the need to escalate his attempts to stay safe.

Today, Joe feels disconnected, unimportant, and threatened both by Bob and by the very police that he has turned to. This leads to Joe's attempt to protect himself, despite his lack of training. In turn, this along with a more callous approach by law enforcement results in Joe himself becoming a criminal.

In rural areas where I live, the situation would still play out as it would in even older times. Bob would have been picked up soon after the first robbery, because a neighbor would have been able to give police a description. But even if that had not happened, Joe would already have a gun and know how to use it, and even if he wasn't caught the first two times, Bob's late-night break in would have been his last action. The police response would have been a formal investigation, but no charges would have been brought against Joe. Joe would have been satisfied in either case and life would have returned to normal.

Resentment is the most dangerous thing police can face today. They are indeed people too, as has been stated. But they also are people with authority, and as such have an enhanced responsibility to conduct themselves properly. They are understaffed, making it more difficult to add those special patrols, but this is in large part due to an escalating atmosphere of mistrust, based on their previous attitudes and leading to more crime. They are also outgunned in many cases, since the Bobs have become more bold in the face of a reduced probability of capture and punishment.

And so it escalates. Less compassion toward the law-abiding citizenry leads to more distrust. More distrust leads to more self-reliance. More self-reliance leads to more weaponry, many times in the hands of those unskilled in its use since we have come to rely on police protection more in society. More weaponry in untrained hands leads to more violence. More violence leads to more calls on police. More calls on police leads to more pressure on the cops and therefore less compassion. It also leads to a lower probability that Bob will be caught, which leads to more crime. More crime leads to more calls on police.

And so the spiral goes. The end result will be a complete breakdown of society. As the distrust of the police grows, so the police are required to use more severe methods in dealing with the general public. Everyone is seen as a criminal first, because the odds are it is true. People begin to think like a criminal, keeping quiet and in the shadows, further making it difficult for the police. Eventually the police will be completely unable to keep the peace, and military-style tactics will be used. Indeed, this is already happening. Some will leave the Force, some will harden into little more than criminals themselves, some will stay and try to fix things... and probably die in the process.

This is the death throe of a free society.

Nothing I have said here should be construed to in any way advocate the use of violence against anyone, including police. In that respect I agree with projectvxn (expected) and WUK ( ). Violence is not the answer. Also, nothing in this should be construed to mean I am against the freedom to protect oneself using firearms. I simply acknowledge the present phenomena of a lack of training among large segments of society (which is correctable). But I have doubts as to whether the only real solution can ever be implemented. It will be difficult, almost impossible, now and become harder as time goes on.

The only way this spiral can be stopped will be a truce between the citizenry and the police. The police will have to give up their total control of every situation and begin exercising judgment and compassion when confronted with victims. The people will have to give up their distrust of law enforcement. The abolition of useless and anti-common-sense laws will go a long way toward accomplishing this, but I doubt that will occur. And even if it does occur, distrust is a hard thing to put aside and police will still have to do their part.

Threads like this, which I agree seem almost desirous of more violence against police, are the exact thing needed if the goal is to accelerate the spiral. Perhaps someone needs to read the first line of my signature, intact since the first day I joined ATS:

"Be careful what you ask for; you might just get it."

TheRedneck

reply to post by TheRedneck


Most excellent post.

The police and even to some degree many in government are caught between the proverbial rock and a hard place. They're a convenient symbolic face to put on this mess as their the first line. They're also a convenient shield and/or target for the people really calling the shots.

Someone wanting or rooting for a revolution out of frustration needs someone to actually fight against, and so....

reply to post by TheRedneck


Repeating ...

Police, for the most part, investigate crimes that have already happened. They don't prevent them from happening.

Most Americans have been raised with a false understanding of what police can and will do. And so when they find out the truth, it's a big shock. Then when you add in the LEO "bad apples" ...

We ran a crime stoppers like org here in town.. my husband is good friends with our police chief and the crime here had become incredible in the last few years. Youd have to know the area to understand the dynamics, but we have significant issues. In this area there is this weird mindset against the police as well. We've dealt with some scary people and they werent only the criminals. The frightening ones are the ones who want to join the group and go after the police. There is a mindset these days that doing violence to or promoting violence toward LEOs is not only acceptable but its the "patriotic" thing to do. WTF?? I dont understand this in the least.

Example: Our officers arrest one guy out of a 3 car party that did a drive by and killed a 15 yr old kid in his front yard. The shooter is in a gang and the dad who works for the city is also in the same gang. There were 3 cars worth of gang members who shot this child.. yet ONE was prosecuted and he wasnt the reported shooter. City working dad loses his job after adn act of God to do it due to his union. The driver caught the charge from the prosecutors office even though our police knew and had evidence that he was not the shooter. The driver is being represented by Rosenblum who is a 50K retainer criminal defense atty and when asked where he got the money for the retainer he said "community gathered funds" aka gang money. The prosecutor has refused to look into that and has refused to charge anyone else. The lawyer will get paid and the driver will walk.. and has already been whining with the NAACP in town about wrongful prosecution. I have the mother in my living room discussing things and you know who she blames? The police!

Guess who has been under fire for this whole debacle throughout the town in the majority? Yes, the police. The guys who did all the work and handed the evidence over on a silver platter to the prosecutor. The citizens here pick an enemy.. our Chef who just happens to be black. He has the whites and blacks calling him every name in the book at meetings and there is an air of complete non-cooperation with the police here.No snitchin t-shirts are worn at meetings for Gods sake. Theyre hated and under fire. They get things thrown at their cars and one had a decorative rock from his yard thrown through his front window. Guess who threw it? Not a thug or banger.. the old white guy down the street that hates the cops for not keeping him safe form the mysterious fantasies he has woven about the entire above incident. and the "police state". We had a flashmob at the bowling alley that the police couldnt handle that trashed the place and went on to trash 3 gas stations and rob them down the street. The police could do NOTHING as we have 200 citizens per every officer due to "funding". Are the thugs involved in the flash mob the bad guy? Nope. Police again! They get yelled at and called names on the street now.

I live in a med size town in SOuthern Illinois now where this is happening. Not some inner city ghetto. There is a weird mind set among the "good" people that the police are the enemy.. and not the criminals! We disbanded the group we formed and removed the hotline number.. we did everything on our own dime.. but were having issues with the citizens who were scary as hell. Average Joes who were more of a threat to peace and cooperation here than the gangs and loser druggies. We had a woman who claimed she was going to law school ( her background check proved different) who took our name and made an appointment with the mayor pretending to be speaking on our behalf. We'd never heard of her. I got word of it and met with the mayor.. it was stopped. None of us have any idea what her deal was.. and dont want to deal with this insanity.

I mean this is insanity going on here and will come to NO good. I see some here gleefully rubbing their hands over the thought of LEO running scared. This is a sick and scary thing that is happening in this country and you should be ashamed of yourselves. I see people here and elsewhere identifying with that Loughner kid and others.. shooting up police stations was discussed elsewhere like it was a great thing! These are so-called patriots and lovers of the constitution? Im thinking they use that BS as a cover story to get support to live out these weird freaking ideas and infect others with the lies. Theyre patriots as much as my dog is. This incitement of violence and praise of violence being perpetrated on fellow American citizens needs to stop and these insane individuals need to be unmasked. Theyre obviously NOT what they are representing themselves as.

Yes, before anyone comes in and says " BUT THE COPS DID THIS TO ME".. we all know, there are bad cops. There are bad HUMAN BEINGS everywhere. Because the minority of a group does something bad doesnt condemn the whole group.. and you are not judge and jury. Its so incredibly childish or immature to think this way that I wonder how some make it through daily life.

For the gleeful hand rubbers.. you need to read up on that constitution ( BOR,LAWS,etc) you claim to love so much. If you want to effect change there are ways to do it.. its all right there for you to read, understand and use. Shooting cops and inciting others to do so is not only immoral, but illegal. WHen your tails in a knot over it, dont cry about it because no one will care. If your words and BS rhetoric push someone to commit violence on another American, I truly hope you are prosecuted along side of them.

reply to post by centurion1211

True enough in theory, but would you not agree that vigorously enforcing laws would lend itself to a tendency to not violate those laws?

It is that tendency that promotes the ideal that law enforcement prevent crimes... true enough, they do not in theory but their actions can have that effect to a degree. Just as a lack of appropriate action can have the opposite effect and encourage crime.

One aspect of your post is apt. It is not up to the police to protect one at all times. It's simply not possible. Thus my disclaimer about the firearms debate. It is up to the police to handle the things that ordinary people are not equipped nor trained to handle, such as gang violence. To say different is to say that a doctor need do no more than suggest over-the-counter medication. Anyone can do that; the purpose of having a doctor is to go beyond one's own capabilities, just as the purpose of having police is to provide protection beyond one's own capabilities.

As for the 'serve' aspect, that is technically not their job, but it is something that is sorely needed. Anything that helps to promote their appearance in the mind of society is a good thing at this point, be it helping someone stranded call a wrecker, helping console someone at an accident scene, or helping a stray child find their way back home. No, these actions are not defined as 'combating crime', but they do aid the police themselves, if only by convincing people that they are on the same side of the law.

At least, that's how it is supposed to work...

TheRedneck

We are being manipulated psychologically, into this adversarial position, the cops, AND us.
The PTB, need this dissociation of police, and the populace.
It is how they will ba able to get the police to commit all kinds of illegal violent acts as well as kill or torure innocent civilians.
If you look at the hostory of how dictators have been successful in the past at controlling, as well as bringing in, a dictatorship, pone is struck by the absolute need for a police force which is beth afraid of the people, and detached from them as much as possible.
The jackbooted thugs who brought Hitler into power, became tha backbone of the internal security organisations, as well as the force that was able to pull off the hollocaust murdering millions of men women and children,.
The people will naturally resent, and even grow to hate the police who are the face of the opression which is what keeps dictators in power.
Without stage managing the relationship between public, and LEOs, the elite would not be able to get these oficers to act against the people with such deliberate cruelty, and violence.
The truth is that BOTH factions are pitted against each other,
Police, and citizens would do well to organise and reconnect with each other on a human level.Thus ensuring that our police really are our police, and not some force of blackshirts who are there to ensure that the elite get what they want every time.