Is Homophobia Natural?

I dont believe gays are born gay at all, its definately a choice. A perverted one and deep down even the gays themselves know it!
Its a sickness, a mental dissorder and should require mandatory therapy!

Originally posted by FarArcher
Homo - man

phobia - fear

I don't fear men.

Why don't we call it what it is - homosexual aversion?

And in my neighborhood, a homosexual is not exactly the poster depiction of what we call a man.

The "homo" in homosexual is taken from the Greek "for the same", and not "homo" as in "man".
en.wikipedia.org...
"Homosexuality" refers to same-sex sexual attraction or behavior, and romantic affections.
What signifies homosexual affections can differ widely between cultures and spaces.
For example, men holding hands is not a sign of homosexuality in many African countries. In the West male hugging, kissing and groping may be frowned upon in public, but it is considered healthy on the sport's field.
In the British colonial legal system it was largely considered anal sex between men (lesbianism was often thought not to exist as a valid sexuality).

Similarly definitions of homophobia vary widely, from emotional to physical homophobia.
The most common use is the fear or aversion of gays and lesbians.
Others may regard it as the fear of homosexual acts, which are not confined to self-identified gay people - in some cultures and settings it is now considered more useful to speak of men who have sex with men (MSM).
Some may also include men or women who have an anxiety about all same-sex touch and intimacy, especially in settings like the locker room (this can include gay and straight people).

To me real homophobia is violent and obsessive.
There is no cross-cultural proof that it is natural to be homophobic, and in most pre-colonial cultures homosexuality was neither blessed nor cursed (although several cultures had third-gender identities which performed sacred roles).
Most of the people called homophobic are really heterosexist by my experience.
They don't think my "lifestyle choice" is as good as their heterosexuality, but they don't discriminate against me.
Of course I don't see it as a choice at all, and the evidence doesn't support it either, but that can be debated until the cows come home.
I wanted a society with choices for every adult.
So, if people choose not to like me they are free to do so. I don't need or want their blessing.
If they want to make their lives miserable by constantly wondering if somebody of the same sex is admiring them, or attracted to them, then let them.

I don't agree with everything the gay movements do.
I've been critical of some clips aimed at young people to combat homophobia on another thread.
Usually such materials stereotype gay people, and always leave somebody out.
Young people shouldn't be told how to be gay while they are developing; there are many ways to be gay or straight.
The Western gay movement has been very focused on visibility. I don't think this has worked everywhere, and has made some self-styled traditionalists realize that they can be homophobic.
Some are homophobic to open gay behavior, while others are more concerned about the hidden enemy within (the "pinko queer" from McCarthyism's discourse).
I'd say especially the latter often borders on paranoia.
An old argument is that much homophobia comes from repressed homosexuality (especially since most of the homophobic movements and spaces have potent homoerotic content, and the mental boundaries must thus be strictly policed). Another concerns "reaction formation", or the feeling that the masculine attributes one struggles so hard to achieve mean nothing to "effeminate" men who have no desire to possess them. This would possibly be more phobic to one type of gay man, or even an "effeminate" straight man mistaken as gay.

I think that physical homophobia can be natural.
Nobody wants to be touched sexually by a person they are not attracted to.

I have no problem with heterosexist people.
We have very real homophobia like "curative rape" in SA on a daily basis.
The question is how to stop widespread violence against gay people, when a lot of the heterosexist discourse implies this is acceptable.
Especially in countries with very sudden legal changes to gay and women's rights, religious heterosexists and homophobes have to be very careful that their statements do not lead to violence.
In post-colonial studies, homophobia is understood as being intellectually linked to misogyny and racism, especially as sexuality was also policed along racial lines (favoring the colonial heterosexual male over women) and a reproduction of the labor force, which even considered masturbation as abnormal.
The feeling is that homophobia is imported from US and Islamic fundamentalists, with a homophobic and misleading conflation of homosexuality with AIDS, serial killers, corprophilia and pedophilia.
In a situation where traditional masculinity is already threatened by women's rights, that can be an explosive mixture.

So heterosexists and homophobes can do what they like, as long as they don't force their sexuality on anyone through violence.
I have no interest in associating with them, and I don't need their blessing to be in any public space.

reply to post by Caitlin

It always fascinates me how heterosexuals seem to know gay people better than gays know themselves!
Deep down we know we are perverted?
How do you know that?
Are you a repressed, self-hating homosexual?
Don't confuse your opinions with facts.
Speak for yourself.
There is not an inch of me that feels perverted.

It reminds me so much of the colonial discourse, where clinical Europeans made policies based on their deep and misguided (often perverted) conviction that they "knew" and understood the natives.
I'd say for somebody to compare two intimate adults to murderers and pedophiles (as another post does) shows that they are deeply perverted.
Their range of sexual metaphors shows a disturbing blurring of thematic confines, which borders on the pathological.
Not surprising then that few Western homophobes would actually like to live in a homophobic country like Zimbabwe or Iran.

Not surprising either that homophobic conservative institutions are rife with sexual abuse and war-talk.

No, I believe it is a societal issue, wrought by the carefully established conventions within the society one was raised in. People typically reject a) the unknown, or what they consider to be different to them and their fundamental beliefs, and b) what they are conditioned to reject as a result of the influences they surround themselves with from a young age i.e. religion, education, other people and their opinions etc.
I think that the belief that people are innately compelled to reject such things is a falsity. I believe the truth is that they are conditioned to feel and think that way and that they are not seeing a clear perspective of the big picture. Love is the only thing that can drive out hate. Intolerance is just a challenge that must be overcome.

reply to post by pretty_vacant

Nice post.
Although it doesn't then explain why people are homosexual who were raised in a society that never mentioned it.
So I'd say homosexuality for a gay person is natural, but homophobia is learnt.

Originally posted by Vicky32
Contrary to a widely-held belief, there's no scientific proof of a genetic basis for homosexuality. It's a choice, people!

Yeah, right, Liberace was a choice!

What next, are you going to suggest that we can simply "pray the gay away"?



There's not a single gay person out there that will tell you that they ever made a conscious decision to be gay. Even the "reformed" gays will tell you it's something they've known about themselves since they were very young.

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by pretty_vacant

 

Nice post.
Although it doesn't then explain why people are homosexual who were raised in a society that never mentioned it.
So I'd say homosexuality for a gay person is natural, but homophobia is learnt.

I echo your sentiments. If I may speak with confidence, homosexuality is apart of ones being; it is who someone is compelled to be, innately. I reason that homophobia is a learned defense against what they consider to be abnormal; it is an intolerance, a negative trait, and with love being the ultimate way, in my opinion, it is this defense mechanism that needs to be overcome if progress is to be made on an individual level, and then subsequently on a broader, societal scale. So, ideally, people shouldn't just be tolerant of alternate attitudes to their own, but they should wholeheartedly accept people for who they are. It takes time and practice but it's not impossible.

let me say it's cultural.

homo stuff is natural.

hating it is not.

you know what i mean, dude.

So people who feel sexuality is a choice...

Can you please tell me when you chose your sexuality? What was the thought process?

As long as I can remember, I have been attracted to girls, however I don't ever remember thinking "Alright self, today we are going to become a heterosexual!"

miss understood your post.

sorry,

it is still cultural, just has different names.


sounds like a pretty awesome defense to have 2 males on alert protecting the mom, add the dad and ya got 3.

with no conflict just mutual survival.



way back in the day, if ya know what i mean.

Originally posted by Torgo

Yeah, right, Liberace was a choice!

What next, are you going to suggest that we can simply "pray the gay away"?

I would not suggest that, because you clearly don't want to! But the assertions of gay groups notwithstanding, that does actually work, if the person actually wants it to...

Originally posted by TorgoThere's not a single gay person out there that will tell you that they ever made a conscious decision to be gay. Even the "reformed" gays will tell you it's something they've known about themselves since they were very young.

Oh really?
I can't remember the first gay man who did tell me he had made such a conscious decision, but I have come across many, many of them in the last 25 years... both on TV and in person, and not to forget the Interwebs!
There's a whole website of them..
Queer By Choice

reply to post by Vicky32

There is a huge debate about social constructionists and essentialists about all sexual behaviors and identities.
Taking their cue from radical feminism the queer movement ultimately believes that all gender roles and behaviors are constructed.
That would also include femininity in woman; and masculinity in men.
One can have a queer outlook regardless of the sexual relationship one is in, and simply reading the first two items on the site's topics shows that they do not say people can suddenly choose who they are attracted to, or that gay queers will suddenly become heterosexual.

In SA there are a currently a lot of men who were (or are) married to women and coming out of the closet.
This strikes me as very sad for both the men, their wives and children.
However, there is also much recognition that homosexuality was simply not a possibility 25 years ago, and added to this was a lot of bad counseling.

So everybody was a victim of a patriarchal system that chose to hide and punish homosexuality.
Usually such radical lifestyle choices were more associated with women, and research suggests that lesbianism in women is more fluid than male homosexuality. That does not mean that there are no true lesbians, or that men cannot be fluid across their lifetime. However, the number of women who move across hetero/lesbian relationship divides by far exceeds that of men.

I think it's just become easier for men to come out.
In the gay movement we regard it with mixed feelings.
We fought, and they hid away for all those years!
Now some are so smug.

I'm happy in a way, but to see middle-age men act like teenage queens isn't that great either.

I can only speak for myself - and for me it was never a choice.
But then, I was never thrown on the street for being gay, like many of these Afrikaans men would have been.
However, it is my choice to be radically Queer!
We all pay our dues.

Whatever I was at birth, the gender discourse created me, opened choices, and closed others.
That kind of acknowledgement of how we are socially constructed allows me choices limited to our discourse.

Modernist discourse encouraged biological essentialism.
Women were once seen as "naturally" bad at science and maths.
Even in the 1950s they struggled to find toilets on campus, and were restricted in the library.
But did the discourse create the gendered order, or did it describe it?

The Queer movement would ask why we are asking those questions in the first place.
They are ultimately products of a heterosexist patriarchy.
So yes, the Queer movement can proclaim homosexuality a choice.
But only as far as it also regards heterosexuality as a choice (and it makes no moral judgments).

Indeed, many heterosexists don't like that argument any more.
It implies that homosexuality is a much stronger choice than heterosexuality.
Despite all the heterosexual media and soft-porn on TV, despite all the religious propaganda...
And still people are gay.
Yet they claim one or two clips can change heteros into homos.

Now that implies that being gay is much more ingrained and biologically determined, and the so-called "natural" heterosexuality is rather weak, and far from a God-ordained norm.

reply to post by lestweforget


Homophobia is the fear of homosexuals. Conservative Christians believe that gay sex is morally wrong. However, they are not afraid of homosexuals. Therefore I have to wonder who you've ever known that is a homophobe. Who is afraid of homosexuals?

reply to post by civilchallenger

As I said in my lengthier quote homophobia is not just the fear of homosexuals.
It can be a fear of same-sex contact "(homo" meaning "the same").

But to answer the question: anything forbidden is feared.
In fact, systems run on that fear.
In SA being raped by another man is the implied fear of prison, and keeping on the narrow road.
Still today even Western countries are slow to hand out condoms in prisons.
The fear must be kept alive.

Oh, they all fear us.
And worst of all - they fear turning into one of us.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
I highly doubt that it's a natural thing.

For instance, take racism. When you were 5 did you see Doug the black kid as black? No you saw him as Doug.

When I was 5 I wouldn't have been attracted to Jessica Alba, but now... Hell Yeah!

You can't base that off age, 5 year olds are not supposed to have survival skills

"We hate most in others that which we fear in ourselves."

Homophobia doesn't mean a fear of gay people.
It means the fear of being like them. The fear of being gay yourself.

So, if you're extremely homophobic, you may be gay.

Originally posted by Vicky32
I've never seen Finding Nemo. By the time it came out, my sons were too old for it. Why would I want to watch a half-witted kid's cartoon, featuring solo Daddies what's more? (They're the lowest form of life)

Ok... so you not only have a problem with gay guys but also with solo dads. Woman, you are confirming your issues on a public forum. How bout you accept that you have these issues and deal with them internally rather than pounding out your psychological torment in public. Looks like its just men in general, that you have a problem with.... and if you have a profile set up on a dating site I hope you provide a link to your posts here at ATS. Just for transparency purposes and to clarify your personal baggage.

reply to post by lestweforget


we are born knowing not. all we learn, we are taught. good or bad. children for the most part first learn directly or from observing those in their immediate shelter. and all that healthy TV content.

growing older i think most children then interface with others near their age in their neighborhood. and whatever baggage and hate those kids bring with them.

later on large groups of children are in classrooms. now each is exposed to more children than before, each affected by their primary sources, good or bad. they bring it to school and they behave as they know how.

it is all learned. children are fast learning all-absorbing sponges. everything is learned, hate-wise. someone elses hate is seen and carried on.

all sorts of trash that are too stupid to practice safe sex have children they never wanted every day. No matter, no one is going to stop them. some of those infants are doomed to carry on the poor habits, hate & ignorance they grow up in.

it's all learned.

Is "Homophobia" natural?
I would say no. "Homophobia" is an unnatural word, so how can homophobia be natural?
What does it even mean?
Does it mean that one is scared of people that are homosexuals...or people that think they are homosexuals...or people that may do, or have done, homosexual things...or people that appear to be homosexual...or people that hang out with homosexuals...or people that are "pro" homosexual?
????
What the hell does homophobia even mean?

Homophobia is a word that is meant to put certain people in a box. Just another way to say you are "A" or "B".
Useful for controllers, but not of much use for anyone else.

All actions, hostile or otherwise, happen for a reason. Rarely are they so easily defined by labels such as "homophobia".
But think about this. I would bet for EACH person that commits an hostile act against someone because they are perceived to be somehow homosexually inclined politically, physically, culturally or otherwise, there is at least ONE person doing just the opposite because of guilt, political correctness, or because they have bought into the victim status that homosexuals need protection from.

Originally posted by Vicky32

Originally posted by Torgo

Yeah, right, Liberace was a choice!

What next, are you going to suggest that we can simply "pray the gay away"?

I would not suggest that, because you clearly don't want to! But the assertions of gay groups notwithstanding, that does actually work, if the person actually wants it to...

Originally posted by TorgoThere's not a single gay person out there that will tell you that they ever made a conscious decision to be gay. Even the "reformed" gays will tell you it's something they've known about themselves since they were very young.

Oh really?
I can't remember the first gay man who did tell me he had made such a conscious decision, but I have come across many, many of them in the last 25 years... both on TV and in person, and not to forget the Interwebs!
There's a whole website of them..
Queer By Choice

You mean this website that looks like it was made in half an hour by a 64 year old man with a current 5th grade students' knowledge on web design? I think it's more likely that some nut from the GOP fabricated all this nonsense themselves to try and prove a 'point' that never existed.

Next time, here's a tip: most of us "gays" hate fake rainbows. And, not to generalize, but nobody is buying that something styled that poorly was designed by homosexuals -- former, current, or chosen.