Gay Marriage Amendment: Good Idea?

Homosexuality is not natural, look at the basic purpose (sorry this bits emotionless) of two genders, it's to produce OFFSPRING, that is the basic purpose of any species, homosexuality defies natural purpose

homosexuality shouldn't be stamped out but it should also not be promoted in anyway

sorry if i've affended anyone

[edit on 17-7-2004 by UK Wizard]

Give mea #in break......

promoted?

just leave us the # alone...won't make you a cocksucker in any way shape or form.....or are you one of the ones that it might?



[Edited on 19-7-2004 by MacMerdin]

I edited this post. Was drinking and just in a bad mood. Didn't mean to get so upset. Sorry Russian.

[Edited on 18-7-2004 by MacMerdin]

You know what...

I'm sooo sick of you hetero's telling me how and who I should love. And you know what, you don't know anything about gay people and how gay people live, operate,and or anything else. You might say, "oh, I have a few gay friends, so that makes me a scholar on the subject", but you know what....It doesn't. None of you straights know anything about what it's like being gay or anything about it.

I'm glad you straight people give us support ....but you still don't know the fear, the anguish, the hate that we have gone and are still going through. I just am waiting until YOUR rights (those who have been against gays) are being oppressed in the senate....Don't ask me for your support when that happens!!!!!!!!

To the people who have supported us....don't take this the wrong way please!!!!!!! I love you!!! And will support you in all the ways I can.

[Edited on 18-7-2004 by MacMerdin]

[Edited on 20-7-2004 by MacMerdin]

Well then what is it like to be gay? Are us heteros really that out of touch with the gay community?

Another thread that proves ATS members cannot talk about Homosexuality without homophobic posts Its up to them, let them do what they like, its not going to effect my everyday life.

i don't particular care whether homosexuals are there or not, i just hate it when they are used for media attention or they openly promote themselves in ways such as that London march thing they did.

I don't think they should have equal marriage rights though

REMINDER: Please keep it civil, folks. No name-calling.

Originally posted by lockheed
Well then what is it like to be gay? Are us heteros really that out of touch with the gay community?

Apparently so, yes. (I'm not speaking from personal experience, but my daughter and two of her friends are homosexuals and I know several bisexual and homosexual people.)

In our society, it's a fairly traumatic thing. People accept seeing a man and a woman kiss in public, and they "sort of" accept two women kissing -- but two men kissing is enough to start a real furor.(which is very peculiar, and says how much the male viewpoint impacts our culture.)

So it's sort of a "well, the chick thing kind of tweaks some of my fantasies (so marginal lesbians are okay) but the guy thing is just WRONG" attitude. It is an attitude that panders to a heterosexual fantasy while dehumanizing the lesbians (and by the way, this is something that lesbians get VERY irritated over.)

What you're seeing is the reaction of people who have been marginalized, brutalized, and cut off from society. In the 1960's, we had the same situation with Blacks in America, and you can see it reflected in a lot of the cultural festivals around the US (particularly Hispanic and Chinese and cultures that are not WASP.)

Those of us who are heterosexual (and not of a culture or race that's been shoved out of the mainstream) have a bit of trouble understanding how damaging it can be. Although the kids I know got good support at home, it did not undo the very harmful effects of the treatment they got in school (namecalling, getting beaten up, getting held down and tortured.) Although I was teased rather cruelly when I was small, I never went through what these kids went through.

So yes, it's hard for us to completely understand.

People have to understand that homosexuals have been in the world from the time humans started walking the earth, they are here to stay and stay they will and get use it, religion beliefs is what has make it a sin and so did with sex, it is also a sin but people still commit the act Right? No body has the right to just others. And religion has not right to condemn others.

People these days are so good at causing problems and stirring up strife via being nosey!!

And when it comes to past issues such as how should black's be treated, how should women be treated when it comes to god given rights, apparantly people haven't learned from these issues because we're still trying to tell other's who aren't LIKE US, what to do, how to live their life, and what rights they should have...

Some of you are so caught up in other people's affairs, your tongue is so long you could sit in the living room and lick a spoon in the kitchen...

Mind your own affaris, you know 1/3 of teenage suicides in the nation is because they were GAY........(source: a&e.com:L.A-coroner)

Is it really ***necessary or do we just ****want to tell people who aren't like us how to live?









[Edited on 18-7-2004 by TrueLies]

Lockheed says,

The main thing here is that Gay marriage should not be a political issue.

When you go to the PUBLIC courthouse to get your licence to marry from the STATE government...this becomes a PUIBLIC affair. Your reccords are public domain, and you get a tax break....these things alone make this a PUBLIC issue.....If only youd love who you like and keep your sex life out of the PUBLIC domain where your private affairs belong...you wouldnt be butting heads with the public/majority in this democratic society.

TrueLies says,

In no way do we as a society have the right to deny people of different status rights and liberties.. That's not what America is about.. And it's not going to affect society..

and,

it's not our right as a society to say whats right and wrong,

Its not eh? lets look at the definiton of SOCIETY
so�ci�e�ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (s-s-t)
n. pl. so�ci�e�ties
1a) The totality of social relationships among humans.
1b) A group of humans broadly distinguished from other groups by mutual interests, participation in characteristic relationships, shared institutions, and a common culture.
1c) The institutions and culture of a distinct self-perpetuating group.
2a) An organization or association of persons engaged in a common profession, activity, or interest: a folklore society; a society of bird watchers.
3A) The rich, privileged, and fashionable social class.
3B) The socially dominant members of a community.
4) Companionship; company: enjoys the society of friends and family members.
5) Biology. A colony or community of organisms, usually of the same species: an insect society.
The American Heritage� Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright � 2000

Now lets define CULTURE
cul�ture ( P ) Pronunciation Key (klchr) n.
1a) The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought.
1b) These patterns, traits, and products considered as the expression of a particular period, class, community, or population: Edwardian culture; Japanese culture; the culture of poverty.
1c) These patterns, traits, and products considered with respect to a particular category, such as a field, subject, or mode of expression: religious culture in the Middle Ages; musical culture; oral culture.
1d) The predominating attitudes and behavior that characterize the functioning of a group or organization. 2) Intellectual and artistic activity and the works produced by it.
3a) Development of the intellect through training or education.
3b) Enlightenment resulting from such training or education.
4) A high degree of taste and refinement formed by aesthetic and intellectual training.
5) Special training and development: voice culture for singers and actors.
6) The cultivation of soil; tillage.
7) The breeding of animals or growing of plants, especially to produce improved stock.
8) Biology.
8a) The growing of microorganisms, tissue cells, or other living matter in a specially prepared nutrient medium.
8b) Such a growth or colony, as of bacteria.
The American Heritage� Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright � 2000

I have put the relavent definitions into bold text so that you can get right to the point.
Tell me again why a given CULTURE or SOCIETY does not have the right to self determination...the right to determine what values it holds dear and perpetuates to new generations to define itself from other social groups?

Are you throwing hundreds of years of the study of sociology out the window for conveniance? It has taken mankind thousands of years to evolve this way of defining its social structures, and for the sake of a personal want, your willing to subvert this science as well as do away with recognized ways that different cultures define themselves?

I feel this is the CORE of the gay marriage argument...again in a democratic society...doesnt the majority have the right to make this determination reguardless of the seeming "right/wrong" implications?
I could throw out the definitions of culture and society to say murder is good and should be adopted...its the same argument your trying to utilize to justify gay marriage.

I fear for the USA because there isnt enough social identity thats common between our citizens to make them UNITED as STATES, and as a people or a nation. I feel this will be the downfall of our society and country, a lack of community based off a "all inclusive" mentality that seperates more than it unifies.


MacMerdin says,

I'm glad you straight people give us support ....but you still don't know the fear, the anguish, the hate that we have gone and are still going through...... I just am waiting until YOUR rights are being oppressed in the senate....Don't ask me for your support when that happens!!!!!!!!

Hmmm, typical give me give me attitude...."I'm glad you straight people give us support........Don't ask me for your support....."
seeming translation...i want, but im not willing to do anything for you in return.
This is again arrogant, self centered, and unwilling to recognize the cultural values that the majority hold....all for the sake of personal gain.

Infinate states,

Another thread that proves ATS members cannot talk about Homosexuality without homophobic posts Its up to them, let them do what they like, its not going to effect my everyday life.

Well Infinate, read back to my posts in this thread and tell me where ive bashed gays, or used GOD for justification in any way...Where have iI said "gay is right/wrong"?...then come back and say that ATS members cant discuss this without homophobia....I have asked legitimate questions which I feel have been brushed over because they are difficult for the gay community to acknowledge or answer without raising questions about their motive and execution of this adgenda.
When I see a willingness by the gay community to do more than make a list of demmands, and look deeply at the cultural/legal issues without pandering to emotionalisms...then i feel more progress will be made on this issue. Where is the respect for the majority cultural values? Im not saying the gay communitymust agree with the majority, but they must acknowledge that the overall cultural values for our socity exist and that we are not "wrong" for working to preserve our heritage. It is the gay community that is doing something to the culture, NOT the culture hunting down gays...(not including incidences by biggots that gay bash...they are individules, Not the culture institutionalizing this bashing)

Marge says,

People have to understand that homosexuals have been in the world from the time humans started walking the earth,

Yeah so what? So has murder, thievery, war, jealousy, hate ect....this does not mean that any society has to condone those behaiviors any more than they have to condone smoking, gluttony, or gay marriage.
Democratic cultures have determined what behaiviors are accepted in their societies for centuries too....do we do away with democracy and cultural definitions too?

TrueLies speaks truth,

People these days are so good at causing problems and stirring up strife via being nosey!!

You mean like the gay community? Hmm i dont see the Gov/courts pursuing gays and prying into peoples bedrooms...it seems the other way around, like the gay community is pursuing ther gov/courts and forcing their bedroom practices onto them. Dont try and tell me Bush pushed the issue, yeah he did, but not until long after the vocal gay community had forced this issue onto the public table instead of enjoying their private choice to their sexual preferance.

TrueLies again,

And when it comes to past issues such as how should black's be treated, how should women be treated when it comes to god given rights,

There is a big difference between forced segregation and sexual preferance issues, and if i were balck or a woman, id be insulted by the insinuations that the levels of wrong/harm done are even remotely equal.

Sexual preferance is not a right, neither is the CHOICE of marriage.
People have tried to equate gay marriage to a civil right, it is not. The abillity to get married is gaurenteed to no one gay or str8....it is not my civil right to ever have a bride/spouce....and no one will be obligated to provide me with one. The fact that anyone is/is not married has no bearing on the rest of their life, one can still have a successful career, live with someone they love, drive a car and do anything else a non married person can. There is no right to a marriage for anyone. (obviously once married, there is no garuntee of success)

Oppression is forced upon a person, how is marriage being forced on anyone?

The gay rights movement is not being silenced or repressed. It is activly engaging the overall society to make adjustments to its core system. The society wasnt going around trying to push an adgenda or surpress gay rights....again, where is the oppression?

How is it that the gay rights people blame the society their asking for acceptance from...you get angry when you beat on the door to the house and say "let us in on our terms", and the door doesnt open for you.

Whos ideals would really be being repressed if a majority of a democratic society was forced to submit their ideals to a vocal minority viewpoint?

Wouldnt that be reverse discrimination?
Wouldnt that violate basic democratic and sociological principals?
Whos violating who?

Originally posted by CazMedia
...Society...

So if there was only one person on earth, what society would he be submissive to?

Rights are always inherent with individuals, not an abstract group.

Originally posted by BeingWatchedByThem

So if there was only one person on earth, what society would he be submissive to?

Rights are always inherent with individuals, not an abstract group.

Exactly, and the problem with some people is they have abstract minds which leads to nothing but abstract ideas. It's subjective thought, and the idea of freedom isn't something that some people made up, they are inherent god given rights, so who has the right to dictate personal beliefs and opinions ONTO other people? Nobody... Please get over yourself. Also note: Dictionary terms came from a man's brain, sometimes references aren't always good ones...

If America wants gay marriage gone, it will be gone. As stated above, it is societies right to decide. The thing is that its extremely tough to get amendments ratified.

Lets look at Article 5,

After the whole amendment gets past the congress, it must then go on to the states, here is what must happen then:

Amendments must be ratified by the legislatures of, or by conventions in, three-fourths of the states. It is not mandatory that amendments proposed by Congress be ratified by legislatures nor is it mandatory that amendments proposed by a Convention be ratified by state conventions; each mode of proposal may be used with either mode of ratification.

en.wikipedia.org...

Three fourths of the states!

That is an insane amount!

3/4 of 50 = roughly 38 sates, that means if thirteen state legislatures do not agree then it won't pass.

We can almost be sure that Massachusetts, California, Vermont, and Hawaii will not pass it. so that means only 9 more states must disapprove of the Amendment. Thats a fine line to ride on.




[edit on 19-7-2004 by lockheed]

Originally posted by CazMedia



MacMerdin says,

I'm glad you straight people give us support ....but you still don't know the fear, the anguish, the hate that we have gone and are still going through...... I just am waiting until YOUR rights are being oppressed in the senate....Don't ask me for your support when that happens!!!!!!!!

Hmmm, typical give me give me attitude...."I'm glad you straight people give us support........Don't ask me for your support....."
seeming translation...i want, but im not willing to do anything for you in return.
This is again arrogant, self centered, and unwilling to recognize the cultural values that the majority hold....all for the sake of personal gain.

HMMMM>>>> Pulling the double standard on me now are you? Were'nt you the one who critized me about quoting you without using the whole quote? Saying something like..."oh yeah, use my quotes out of text, isn't that the same as a lie? Non-inclusive of the whole truth is still a lie? You can go off and be your high and mighty self. Don't tell me I can't do something and then you go and do the same exact thing. Michael Moore is all I have to say to you.

BeingWatched and TrueLies seem to agree that not only are we changing the definition of marriage, but we should alter the meanings of society and culture as well.

Are you both stating for the record that you are not willing to use some of the basic concepts of civilization?

Truelies talks about freedom,

...the idea of freedom isn't something that some people made up, they are inherent god given rights...

WHOAH!!!, I thought we were LONG past talking about god and god's opinions about what right is....more specifically about if gay marriage is "god given" as a right. Who's god? What about atheist citizens rights?
Any thoughts to the seperation of church and state the pro gay community always proclaims needs to be removed from this argument?
(meaning dont use "your god says its wrong" argument against gay marriage....WHICH I AGREE WITH!) Anyone HEAR from which god lately on this? Can you post a link to gods statements in this reguard?

Get over your self.....
How long has mankind been working on these ideas? (democracy, cultural definitions, societies) Try a couple of thousand years to develop social, legal, and cultural methods that define what civilization IS, and the differences between civilizations.
No duh dictionary terms came from mans brain....when did god beam down and write us a dictionary? Again your soo willing to overlook thousands of years of sociology to suit your goal of personal gain. Willing to trample on the rest of us to get what you want.
Get over yourself, what makes you soo "right" or powerful or all knowing that you can throw aside the combined efforts of thousands of years of the study of mankinds sociological dynamics?

Being Watched states,

Rights are always inherent with individuals, not an abstract group.

TrueLies agrees....

You are both incorrect, The Preamble to the constitution and the 1rst amendment indicates otherwise. This applies to protections for political speech and political parties (The rights of a group) , hence then are a factor in a given societies democratic process.

We citizens of this society have the right to Freedom of Assembly.
encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com...
www.thefreedictionary.com...

Read the preamble, which explaines the whole REASON to form the USA.

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com...

What are the first 3 words? we the people

This means that WE as a GROUP have these rights...as a nation...as a society. These group rights, like all rights, are both a privilage and a responsibillity. Some people take their responsibillity as citizens more seriously than others.

Please note the part about ensuring the ideas listed for ourselves, but for our posterity as well.

This is an implied mandate that we pass down our heritage, our culture...to the next generation.

Why cant we the people, have a national reforendum or even an amendment if we wanted one and could pass it thru the democratic process? Why cant we the people decide as a democratic society, what this cultural definition should be?

MacMerdin accuses me of duplicity, yet i posted his ENTIRE quote as a referance for all to read, BEFORE I made my extrapolation of your attitude from the entirety of that paragraph..You said one thing and contradicted it with the second...Where was the ommission/lie?

You thanked srt8 people for their support. You said you because you were feeling affraid, anguished, and hated that when the str8 peoples rights were in question, you would not support them.
You implied that the str8 people should suffer like you have.

What did i miss here in this vindictive attitude?
This is again arrogant, self centered, and unwilling to recognize the cultural values that the majority hold....all for the sake of personal gain.
And now your getting nasty about it too and still expect my sympathies and cooperation socially do you? You prove my point again.

Good points Caz,

I tend to think its not about the minority, its about the majority,
however no one should beat up on other people.

But here is a major problem, if marriage is no longer defined as between a man and a woman, then why couldn't marriage be 4 dogs, 2 men, and a woman? (Might as well throw a horse in there too).

I still don't think an amendment is the way to go, this is a states rights issue, but marriage should not be ambiguous

yes it should be ambiguous. It should be ambiguous for many reasons, namely because we have 220+ million people in America not everybody is goes by the norm and why should they? An Ambiguous nation is what makes it so great, it's not just one meaning, it shouldn't be just one meaning.

We live in a time of Diversity and being able to extend beyond normalcy is what makes a melting pot what it is. Being open to more then one interpretation = ambiguous.

Like I said before people who believe in mediocrity stick their nose in everybody else's business. Well people aren't alike, and people shouldn't be told how to live their lives and what standards they can abide by.

If you want to marry a dog or horse #ing go ahead! It's none of our business! When are people going to stop sticking their nose where it doesn't belong!
If being mediocre makes you people feel safe secure and "happy" then kumbya to you, but don't try and make everyone else live like you, it just shows everybody how ignorant and closed minded you people actually are.


Do you people not read plato? 3 words: Allegory of the caves...

www.trufax.org...

"But they�re just like us," I replied. "Do you think they can see anything of themselves and one another? Or do they merely see the images or shadows that fall on the side of the cave facing them, cast by the fire above them?"

"How could they see one another," Glaucon said, "if they�re forced to keep their heads turned in one direction throughout their whole lives?"

OK Caz....your right, my post wasn't clear. I've fixed it.

Now to your point about society being able to define itself. Well, isn't that what is going on now? The ammendment to the constitution to ban gay marriage has failed in the MAJORITY VOTE!!!!!!! You say just because someone doesn't like what the majority has voted for, they can piss off....in so many words. Well, you can do the same, because the majority has spoken and it said NO to ammend the constitution.


[Edited on 20-7-2004 by MacMerdin]

[Edited on 20-7-2004 by MacMerdin]

Woah, lets not result to personal insults here, heh....

I didn't think that would have been a pesonal insult. If it is, I'm sorry....didn't realize it was. I'll get rid of it.


I fixed it....sorry again.

[Edited on 20-7-2004 by MacMerdin]