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Originally posted by chocise
Incorrect because in your previous post you off-handedly dismissed any notion of relating two very important & inter-linked questions mankind has been seeking the answers to since creation itself; ie the origins of species and that of our known universe.
Originally posted by madnessinmysoulHow am I incorrect? Please show me anywhere in scientific literature where it is posited that we went from nothing to something and that is the end of it.
Both are inexplicably linked, whether you like it or not.
Why do you think all the great minds are searching for the one, binding, Theory of Everything in an attempt to rationally explain our own existence.
Ahhh, your self-testing belief system.
I'm sorry, but how am I being arrogant in accepting a self-testing system that regularly updates its knowledge base with new evidence and arranges its ideas to fit with the evidence rather than arranging the evidence to fit with the ideas?
One which works fine for Newton's world of mechanics, but gets misty when we start poking around at the quantum level.
What you consistently fail to acknowledge is that of all those billions of stars, the matter we can account for makes up only 5% of what's out there.
When you finally grasp that
you'll realize your understanding of our Grand Science is indeed very arrogant, as we know only an
infinitesimally small fraction of what is, infact, knowable.
In that sense our own science, and your perception of it, is very crude indeed.
And to put it up there on some kind of intellectual pedestal is arrogance in itself.
See above.
So...I'm arrogant. Yet you're making an unsupported assertion, I dispute it, you say I'm incorrect and arrogant...How am I arrogant again?
It is a faith or belief system
No faith needed. You can test science. You can demonstrate how scientific principles work.
and your attempt to warp the semantics is testament to your absolute belief in it.
Mathematical modeling is central to the our endeavours in pushing back the boundaries of modern science, and although a beautiful language initself, much is still Theoretical, there are no Newtonian, repeatable experiments here, just plain math itself.
If you're about to cite advances in 'modern medicine' as another example of how brilliant our science is, don't, ... it isn't... it's still very crude.
We also still burn fossil fuels to drive turbines, that's pretty crude too...
so in many respects, your absolute science is still living in the Steam Age.
We know bugger all really, m8 ... so please don't try and pretend we do.
They are just hypotheses. I scientific guess, at around the level that people of science once thought that the earth was flat.
Originally posted by MrXYZ
By their very definition, it's evident that they don't require eachother to be valid.
So how did evolution got it's start then (just to repeat the question)?
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by edmc^2
...my question is pertinent to the title. I'm asking for a situation which shows that abiogenesis cannot be separated from evolution. I'm asking for a situation where the polar opposite of abiogenesis would prove evolution false. If the polar opposite of abiogenesis proved evolution false then abiogenesis cannot be separated from evolution.
Now, please show me how evolution would be proven false if abiogenesis were false. You keep saying that evolution requires abiogenesis...but you're just using false analogies.edit on 27/1/11 by madnessinmysoul because: Added request at end.
Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by edmc^2
So how did evolution got it's start then (just to repeat the question)?
Maybe it was started by God. You can believe that if you want. How exactly does it make evolution invalid? Ever heard of theistic evolution?
Originally posted by edmc^2
Originally posted by MrXYZ
By their very definition, it's evident that they don't require eachother to be valid.
Do your really believe that MrXYZ?
Wowee!!
So how did evolution got it's start then (just to repeat the question)?
ciao,
edmc2
As for "theistic evolution" - of course I'm very aware of that - Dr. Ken Miller (who is a Catholic) is one of the proponents of this theory - which I totally reject (for it makes a mockery of the Creator - as if he is incapable of creating a perfect being).
So to repeat: what is the foundation of organic evolution?
Than you should really hate the Bible because God's creation in the Bible is anything but perfect (Adam and Eve, Lucifer, the Tower of Babel, etc etc, time and time again God loses control of his imperfect creation). Obviously God is incapable of creating something that is perfect or at the very least its a hit and miss process. You clearly wouldn't argue that nature is perfect currently would you?
As for the "foundation of organic evolution" I'm curious if you've ever heard of something called DNA and genetics because those are the foundations of organic evolution.edit on 27-1-2011 by Titen-Sxull because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by edmc^2
So to repeat: what is the foundation of organic evolution?
An alternative hypothesis is that life originated at hydrothermal springs on the ocean floor, well below Earth's surface, where conditions would have been much less hostile and more stable. A steady and abundant supply of energy in the form of reduced inorganic compounds, for example, H2 and H2S, may have been available at these spring sites. When this very warm (90-100 C), alkaline, hydrothermal water flowed up through the crust and mixed with the cooler, slightly acidic, iron-containing, more oxidized oceanic waters, precipitates of colloidal pyrite (FeS), silicates, carbonates, and magnesium-containing montmorillonite clays formed. These precipitates built up into structured mounds of gel-like adsorptive surfaces containing pore-filled semipermeable enclosures. The surfaces and pores were rich in minerals such as Fe, and Ni sulfides, which catalyzed formation of amino acids, simple peptides, sugars and nitrogenous bases and trapped and concentrated these compounds. With phosphate from seawater, nucleotides such as AMP and ATP were formed, with their polymerization into RNA catalyzed by montmorillonite clay, which has been shown to catalyze various chemical reactions. The flow of reduced inorganic compounds from the crust provided steady sources of electrons for this prebiotic chemistry, which was fed from ocean water by carbon dioxide, phosphate, iron, and other minerals. It was powered by redox and pH gradients developed across the semipermeable FeS membrane-like surfaces, providing a prebiotic proton motive force.
Do you agree that the "organic evolution theory" is founded on the "abiogensis theory"? That is - they are link together, one cannot exist without the other?
Yes/No?
Originally posted by edmc^2
Bottom line - The Organic Evolution Theory is founded on the Abiogenesis Theory - do you agree?
Originally posted by edmc^2
madness - do you agree with me that time and "chance" or I should say "unguided process" is the biggest if not the prime ingredient/motivator of abiogenesis/organic evolution?
Without it life cannot and will not exist - per theory of "abiogevo" - (new word coined)? Correct?
Not sure I even understand the statement, or what you are trying to get it. If you are trying to suggest without life originating, there would be no life to evolve, therefore a theory of evolution would have never been created, then that is simplistic to the point of being absurd. But no where in in the history of evolutionary theory has it been expressed that evolution is contingent on abiogenesis, two entirely different branches of science.
Originally posted by edmc^2
reply to post by rhinoceros
Bottom line - The Organic Evolution Theory is founded on the Abiogenesis Theory - do you agree?
“Evolution relies on the fact that organisms have a drive to reproduce and grow…”.
Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by Maslo
Just how many scientific "theories" are we going to stack together and use them for a basis of reality?