Why Abiogenesis separated from Evolution is a false Dichotomy.

Originally posted by edmc^2
How confident are you with the future? Bright one? Can science resolve man's growing problems? Can man successfully solve his own problem - the threat of economic collapse, natural disasters, terrorism, pollution, population explosion, famine, increasing of lawlessness, collapse of moral values, nuclear as well as biological threats? This is the reality that man is now facing - at an incredibly alarming rate - in-spite of advancements in science and technology.

If man is just a product of evolution - then may an imaginary God have mercy on us.

Whether or not we can is irrelevant. It doesn't affect God's existence or non-existence either way.

Oh boy, another thread where Edmc dances around the argument and posts bible quotes.
I'm sure THIS time he'll actually listen to the other person and not ignore any valid points!

Originally posted by hippomchippo
Oh boy, another thread where Edmc dances around the argument and posts bible quotes.
I'm sure THIS time he'll actually listen to the other person and not ignore any valid points!

If it's valid - it's valid. No argument there.

As for:

"THIS time he'll actually listen to the other person and not ignore any valid points!" - no idea what ur talking about. Might be that I did not respond to some post right away - ran out of time. If a valid post got ignored, my apologies - not my intenetion but sometimes - I get burned out. So once in a while I tuned out.

As for bible quotes - one time I said something that was not backed-up by the scriptures and I got flamed for it. Got accused of pulling it from my "arss". That's why I back up my claim with scriptures as well as statements from scientific authorities. Funny thing is, whether I use Bible quotes or scientific quotes I still get accused of "quote-mining". But if I use my own words - i get accused of "ignoramus'.

So hippomchippo - what's the best approached? Stay away from the forum or participate?

ciao,
edmc2

Scriptures aren't evidence of anything other than showing what ancient people believed to be true. And a lot of it has already been debunked by modern science

Originally posted by Golden Boy

Originally posted by edmc^2
How confident are you with the future? Bright one? Can science resolve man's growing problems? Can man successfully solve his own problem - the threat of economic collapse, natural disasters, terrorism, pollution, population explosion, famine, increasing of lawlessness, collapse of moral values, nuclear as well as biological threats? This is the reality that man is now facing - at an incredibly alarming rate - in-spite of advancements in science and technology.

If man is just a product of evolution - then may an imaginary God have mercy on us.

Whether or not we can is irrelevant. It doesn't affect God's existence or non-existence either way.

If God exist and ignores the plight of mankind - his children - then He is guilty. But if he fulfills his promisess then anyone who goes against it will fare badly.

On the other hand if God is just a figment of our imagination or just an invention (as rnaa puts it) then I say mankind is doomed. For the problems that we are now facing are beyond our control. Unless you have total faith in man's ability to control nature, his nature and circumstances.

ciao,
edmc2

reply to post by edmc^2

On the other hand if God is just a figment of our imagination or just an invention (as rnaa puts it) then I say mankind is doomed. For the problems that we are now facing are beyond our control.

What are you talking about??? What's beyond our control, and how would it be in our control if god existed?

Originally posted by MrXYZ
Scriptures aren't evidence of anything other than showing what ancient people believed to be true. And a lot of it has already been debunked by modern science

On the other hand a lot of it has already been proven by modern science and many more are being proven to true.

In fact there were things that were considered "miracles" a few years ago but are now part of of scientifc advancements. Science and technology have confirmed their existince.

Now turning water into wine - that I'm still waiting.


ciao,
edmc2

reply to post by edmc^2


Well, the track record of "god did it" is pretty horrible as nothing has ever been proven to be caused by god...

- Comets => not god
- Disease => not god
- Fire/Lightning => not god
- Sacrifice to appease gods => hogwash
- Confess to make god forgive you => hogwash

The list goes on...

Also, scriptures got a ton crucial stuff wrong, like claiming the earth is flat, claiming humans came into existence in their current form, or claiming it's less than 4.5bil years old. You'd think if they were correct, they would get basic stuff like that correct

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by edmc^2

 

On the other hand if God is just a figment of our imagination or just an invention (as rnaa puts it) then I say mankind is doomed. For the problems that we are now facing are beyond our control.

What are you talking about??? What's beyond our control, and how would it be in our control if god existed?

Just to give you one or two: the increasing violence and lawlessnes - this is beyond man's control because the motivating factor resides in man - the heart. If you can change the heart of man to do good to his felowman then you have control.

The "Pandoras Box" - secret of the atom - does man has the power to eliminate nuclear weapons? Why do we need them if the desire of each one us is to live in peace? Yet we continue to do research and manufacture more powerful weapons? Latest in the arsenal - the neutron bomb. Why produce this weapon if anyone who would used it will be destroyed?

But hey, since we are product of evolution - and God is only an invention so why worry?

ciao,
edmc2

reply to post by edmc^2

Just to give you one or two: the increasing violence and lawlessnes

And your proof of that is? What exactly makes these times more violent than others? I mean, we had WW2 last century, the Wild West was definitely more lawless than today...so I'd call your statement hogwash

The "Pandoras Box" - secret of the atom - does man has the power to eliminate nuclear weapons? Why do we need them if the desire of each one us is to live in peace? Yet we continue to do research and manufacture more powerful weapons? Latest in the arsenal - the neutron bomb. Why produce this weapon if anyone who would used it will be destroyed?

The same invention brought you light, allows you to make these posts, powers hospitals, saves lives...without nuclear power, the life expectancy of a lot of people would be lower. We just now are starting to figure out other means of energy, and if you read up on solar cells and wind energy...for now, they couldn't make up for all the energy produced by nuclear power.

Also, keep in mind, that in the 65yrs since the first atom bomb, not a single one has been launched since Hiroshima!

In short, your claims don't hold up to the facts...but people have always believed the end times are near, so whatever

reply to post by MrXYZ

Also, scriptures got a ton crucial stuff wrong, like claiming the earth is flat,

You mean the "flat earthers" - well news flash, they got their data way-off.

claiming humans came into existence in their current form,

Of course since you beleive that man evolved from lower forms, this does not make sense to you. Adam and Eve - a perfect couple with the ability to produce their own kind.

or claiming it's less than 4.5bil years old. You'd think if they were correct, they would get basic stuff like that correct..

According to data the earth is around 4.5 billion - agrees with the Bible:

"In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth." -- Gen 1:1 >> no specific time given, earth could be more than 4 billions years old. Universe (heavens) could be 13 trillion years or more.


ciao,
edmc2

Originally posted by edmc^2
If God exist and ignores the plight of mankind - his children - then He is guilty. But if he fulfills his promisess then anyone who goes against it will fare badly.

On the other hand if God is just a figment of our imagination or just an invention (as rnaa puts it) then I say mankind is doomed. For the problems that we are now facing are beyond our control. Unless you have total faith in man's ability to control nature, his nature and circumstances.

What is the point of this? What are you trying to say?

reply to post by MrXYZ


Well, ask any older generation - even the WWI WW2 survivors about the present time and their time. Asked which one has more violence and lawlessness?

As for scientific acchievements, allow me please to repeat what I said before:

Science or scientific achievement is not the issue here. Every informed person is aware of the amazing accomplishments of science and scientists in many fields. Scientific study has dramatically increased our knowledge of the universe and of the earth and of living things. Studies of the human body have opened up improved ways of treating illnesses and injuries. Rapid advances in electronics (my field) have ushered in the computer age (iphone/ipad, etc), which is altering our lives. Scientists have performed astounding feats (split the atoms/genome project), even sending men to the moon and back. It is only right to respect the skills that have added so greatly to our knowledge of the world around us, from small things (nanotechnology) to infinitely large ones (CERN). We are very grateful for SCIENCE because of these achievements.

But when used for the wrong reasons then it's no longer benificial.

ciao,
edmc2

Originally posted by Golden Boy

Originally posted by edmc^2

If God exist and ignores the plight of mankind - his children - then He is guilty. But if he fulfills his promisess then anyone who goes against it will fare badly.

On the other hand if God is just a figment of our imagination or just an invention (as rnaa puts it) then I say mankind is doomed. For the problems that we are now facing are beyond our control. Unless you have total faith in man's ability to control nature, his nature and circumstances.

What is the point of this? What are you trying to say?

A reply to your post below:

Whether or not we can is irrelevant. It doesn't affect God's existence or non-existence either way.

Showing the relivance.

ciao,
edmc2

The earth and universe were made simultaneously then according to your interpretation of the bible.

Most of your posts are bible quotes, which are worthless, wrapped around philosophical drivel such as:

Originally posted by edmc^2

If God exist and ignores the plight of mankind - his children - then He is guilty. But if he fulfills his promisess then anyone who goes against it will fare badly.

On the other hand if God is just a figment of our imagination or just an invention (as rnaa puts it) then I say mankind is doomed. For the problems that we are now facing are beyond our control. Unless you have total faith in man's ability to control nature, his nature and circumstances.

These two paragraphs mean absolutely nothing, present no kind of structured argument, or cogent direction of rational thought, other than idealistic excrement that happens to be syntactically correct.

Which god are we talking about BTW. There are probably just as many posited gods and religions as there are languages (5000+), and according to each, all those following a different religion or submitting to the will of a different god "will fare badly." Therefore, all humans "fare badly"

reply to post by edmc^2

Of course since you beleive that man evolved from lower forms, this does not make sense to you. Adam and Eve - a perfect couple with the ability to produce their own kind.

But pure fiction as the entire Adam and Eve story is scientifically wrong

According to data the earth is around 4.5 billion - agrees with the Bible:

"In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth." -- Gen 1:1 >> no specific time given, earth could be more than 4 billions years old. Universe (heavens) could be 13 trillion years or more.

Until you start lining up the other stories chronologically...at that point you'll realize what complete hogwash it is

Also, it claims the earth was made at the same time as the universe...which is also complete hogwash...

Cliffnotes: The bible is complete hogwash...

reply to post by uva3021

The earth and universe were made simultaneously then according to your interpretation of the bible.

I'm not sure if you were able to read what I said in one of my posts, anyway here's what I said:

According to data the earth is around 4.5 billion - agrees with the Bible:

"In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth." -- Gen 1:1 >> no specific time given, earth could be more than 4 billions years old. Universe (heavens) could be 13 trillion years or more.

As for what u said below:

Most of your posts are bible quotes, which are worthless, wrapped around philosophical drivel such as:

Let me simplify it for you:

If God exist then He will fullfil his promise - that of elimination of wickedness on earth:

"And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more;
And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be. --Ps 37:10.


So that:

"the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace" -- Ps 37:11.


On the other hand - if God does not exist, that we are truly a product of evolution/abiogenesis - then mankind's problem will stay with him, unless he is able to resolve all of them.

That's all folks.

edmc2

Yes, there's problems...as there have always been...and yes, humankind has to work on them.

And just like before, they have to evolve and solve issues on their own since we have no evidence god ever intervened

Originally posted by edmc^2

Originally posted by Golden Boy

Originally posted by edmc^2

If God exist and ignores the plight of mankind - his children - then He is guilty. But if he fulfills his promisess then anyone who goes against it will fare badly.

On the other hand if God is just a figment of our imagination or just an invention (as rnaa puts it) then I say mankind is doomed. For the problems that we are now facing are beyond our control. Unless you have total faith in man's ability to control nature, his nature and circumstances.

What is the point of this? What are you trying to say?

A reply to your post below:

Whether or not we can is irrelevant. It doesn't affect God's existence or non-existence either way.

Showing the relivance.

But that doesn't show the relevance. My statement that whether or not humans can manage to save themselves on their own is irrelevant to whether or not God exists still stands. All you're doing is making a kind of Pascal's wager variant.

reply to post by Golden Boy


That's the thing. We have no credible evidence that a deity ever intervened in anything, and we did just fine...so what makes some people think we are doomed without a deity is beyond me.