This is why we should all have the right and the possesion of a firearms.

Back to the original theme of the thread: (rhetorical question) would it have not been a great equalizer if the native americans were already armed with firearms when we landed on their shores (as opposed to 100s of years later when they were rounded up for goverment reservations)?

reply to post by Beyond Creation


I understand that it is not important to your sense of security. That is fine. I just wonder why people feel the need to tell other's how to live their life. If a peacable person wants to own a gun then, why not? Brazil, Venezuala, Austalia, and England have all seen a rise in violent crimes after banning the ownership by, or sell to, civilians. In the mean time America has seen a two decade decrease in the crime rate as gun laws loosened.

I understand it if you don't want a gun. I know people that would never own a gun and I don't begrudge them their choice. I am not one of those "don't come to me when something happens," type of guys. However, I don't understand telling an 83 year old man that he has to be afraid of 20 year old thugs. At that age a broken hip or rib can be a death sentence. Why shouldn't he have the right to respond in kind when his life is on the line?

I don't understand denying a women the right to use a gun to fight off a sexual attacker. How likely is a 124 pound women to fight off a 200 pound man that is hell bent on raping her body, mind, and spirit? Well according to the statistics only 3% of sexual assaults are completed if a women uses a gun to resist. If she fights back with her hands more than 32% of sexual assaults are completed.

I just don't understand telling these people that they have no right to protect theirself from predators.

reply to post by Honor93


Limiting magazines is the same thing as the cosmetic weapon ban. . . I mean "assault weapon ban" that got passed in 1994. It is about taking low hanging fruit so that you can build support for stricter legislation in the future.

A study mandated by congress, after the assault weapons ban passed, found that limiting the number of rounds in a magazine had no effect on multiple shot or multiple victim criminal use of guns. They actually found that people tended to suffer more severe injuries and die more often when shot with a revolver. In 1994 the FBI's Unified Crime Report also showed that you were 11 times more likely to get beaten to death than killed by an "assault weapon." Like I said though it is all about getting the snow ball rolling.

Old guys that know how to shoot well usually trump young punks that spray and pray. However, with the increase in multiple party home invasion teams "high capacity" magazines may have become more necessary. That is just my opinion.

Nelson T. Shields Chairman of Handgun Control Inc was interviewed in the New Yorker in 1976 this is what he said,

"We'll take one step at a time, and the first is necessarily - given the political realities - very modest. We'll have to start working again to strengthen the law, and then again to strengthen the next law and again and again. Our ultimate goal, total control of handguns, is going to take time. The first problem is to slow down production and sales. Next is to get registration. The final problem is to make possession of all handguns and ammunition (with a few exceptions) totally illegal.

This has been the aim of "gun control" advocate groups for thirty years.

I think it is funny that the control crowd has allies like Sammy "The Bull." When a Mafia hitman likes your policy because it makes his job easier, it might be time to rethink your position.

"Gun control? It's the best thing you can do for crooks and gangsters. I want you to have nothing. If I'm a bad guy, I'm always gonna have a gun."

Originally posted by Truth_Hz
Just out of interest and honest bravado free answers only please, who out of all the people that are defending the rights to carry a firearm has actually been in a situation where they felt threatened and that they actually needed a firearm?

regardless of your stance it should be interesting to see some figures!

I have used a rifle to defend my neighbor. She was an 80 year old shut in and very physically limitted. (She has since passed on.) Two men were prowling her property after an ice storm. I knew that these men did not belong on her property. I also knew that she was inside and alone. I stepped out and asked these men why they were there. They made up a story about looking for a dog. I told the man that it was very obvious his dog was not on her porch and asked him to please get off of her porch. He refused and his buddy started heading in my direction. I presented my rifle and both men fled the scene. When the police finally arrived seven minutes later I gave a description of the car and the license plate number. They were later aprehended.

The cops found a putty knife and screwdriver on the porch. One guy had been trying to force entry in to the house. It turns out they had broken in to multiple homes that day.They believed an ice/snow storm would give them cover to do anything.

When I was a kid my mother, father, and I went to the bank. Dad was cashing his pay check and mom was handling other business. So, they took me in instead of leaving me in the car. Me and my mom left the bank a few steps ahead of dad. He had waited and held the door for an elderly couple entering the bank. When we got to the car a guy stepped around the front of the truck beside us. He pulled out a 6" knife and informed my dad that he would make us "bleed" if he didn't hand over his check. My dad pulled his revolver and the man ran for his life. No shooting was necessay.

My father was walking my grandmother's dog in the front yard. (This was many years after the last story.) A minivan pulled up and the side door slid open. Two young men jumped out and yelled, "this is a robbery." Again, my father pulled his revolver. He simply said "I don't think so." No shots fired the young men turned tail and ran. A couple of days later there was an article in the paper about a group of guys riding around town, jumping out of a minivan, and robbing people. They had robbed several people and put one elderly man in the hospital.

My dad could have been that elderly man. He has had multiple back operations, knee operations, a kneck surgery, and survived cancer twice. He is in no shape for fighting twenty year old punks that don't mind roughing up an older person.

reply to post by Truth_Hz


I have a couple of questions that no one from England has attempted to answer yet. I am not trying to be a jerk I just want an answer.

Since the handgun ban and confiscation of 1997 the reports of crimes labelled "violence against the person" has risen over 300%. The rate of domestic abuse against women is also up over the last couple of years. So are the number of sexual assaults. Why is this going on if people are safer with guns gone?

If there are no guns in England to worry about why have the papers run stories of cops selling confiscated guns to crimininals? Why was a man arrested for selling over 172 starter pistols he converted to functioning firearms? Why are there nearly 8,000 firearm offenses every year? There has been a decrease over the last eight years but according to the Home office it is because of a drop in crimes with immitation firearms. I understand the threat of gun related violence is low. Is it a non proplem though?

In England there is still gun related crime, women are attacked physically and sexually more often, and violent crime as a whole is up. At the same time when America ha been loosening gun regulations crime has dropped across the board for two decades. What is your honest opinion about these things?

I'm not making this stuff up. You can check statistics from the Home Office if you would like.
Home Office Stats 2009-2010

Geez man, America is F'ed Up!
We need to design big gun magnets, to retrieve all the guns over the world and melt them into rocking pony's .

How do I know? I got robbed twice on vacation there! ...wrong place at the wrong time i guess.
But for the most part its a very nice continent tho

Originally posted by MikeNice81
reply to post by Truth_Hz

 

I have a couple of questions that no one from England has attempted to answer yet. I am not trying to be a jerk I just want an answer.

Not at all chap, it's quite pleasant to have an objective conversation without the usual "gun nuts" throwing around ridiculous claims on how we should come and try to take their guns...

I am intrigued as to where you get your figures from as within that Home office document it clearly shows a 50% decrease in violent crimes since 1995 and firearms offences have reduced by about 2000 incidents since 2005.

It also shows that the majority of firearms offences are against those under 30, this is because the majority of said firearms are actually air/gas powered weapons, air rifles, bb guns and imitation guns of which there are about 7 million circulating in the uk. These are non deadly weapons and legal to own however they are illegal to use in a threatening manner which is why the figures are so high, for example a kid using a realistic looking imitation handgun to rob from another kid would make it into these figures

Only 336 people suffered serious injury and 39 fatalities and I would be relatively safe in saying that most of these were gang related. In contrast in the US which had in 2004 (the most recent figures i can find) 64,389 injuries and 29,569 fatalities.

CDC Website

The gun situation in the UK is pretty much a non problem, most gun crime is from inner city youths robbing each other for drugs / money / whatever. There is the odd nutter i.e. Raoul Moat (spelling*) but mainly unless you are in a severely deprived area you are never going to come in to contact with any kind of firearm.

most violent crimes in the UK are drunken people coming out of pubs and bars at kicking out time. It would be naive to say that there is hardly any knife crime however again a lot of this is in big cities in areas you wouldn't normally go to..

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere

Originally posted by TedHodgson
Guns are for people who arnt powerfull enough to use words to sort thier problems

Hahahaha

Excuse me Mr mugger man. Would you like to talk about why you're beating my head with a rock and your friend over there is raping my wife? Maybe share a biscuit?

What a fantastic world some people live in.

Wow, talking down a criminal. Are you serious ? Are you delusional ? Is their a cloud that fogs some people's minds, or are they living in a fantasy world ? You go ahead and use words, I'll defend my family any way I can. While you are getting beet down, I'll be keeping my family safe from criminal who don't care about your words and from do-gooders like you that thing guns kill people.

Funny, I've never seen a gun get up on its own and commit a crime.

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere

Originally posted by TedHodgson
Guns are for people who arnt powerfull enough to use words to sort thier problems

Hahahaha

Excuse me Mr mugger man. Would you like to talk about why you're beating my head with a rock and your friend over there is raping my wife? Maybe share a biscuit?

What a fantastic world some people live in.

hahaha I was thinking the same thing when i read his post.

reply to post by TedHodgson


You are naive and manipulated by your society. Words aren't #... Do you know the saying "The pen is mightier than the sword"?

Do you know WHY the pen is mightier than the sword? The only way that the pen is mightier than the sword is that it's a .22 caliber Christians in Action (CIA) pen gun... all joking aside, the pen is mightier than the sword, because the words that it writes can bring a whole lot more swords to bear.

There will always be a need for guns. That is due to the human condition and greed. So long as there is greed in the human condition, the need for arms will be there.

If you think your words can stop a bullet, you aren't going to last long. I feel sorry for you actually, you;ve allowed people that want to control you to manipulate you and give you a sense of security that doesn't exist.

Only YOU are responsible for your safety and no one else can assure your safety.

You're the person who cowers at the first sign of violence, or you stupidly think that if you talk sense to the aggressors they will listen...

I pray that you never get into a truly violent situation, because you won't last long.

Jaden

Originally posted by TedHodgson
reply to post by thisguyrighthere

 

And you think a gun would help?! Does it make you feel powerfull? nawwh.

Chances are they will have guns too and youll fire off maybe 2 shots in the midst of shaking because your so scared, that wont hit either of them...Before they shoot you and your dead, You dont deserve guns and Neither do these so called muggers

I laugh at anyone who thinks a deadly weapon is the only solution to their problems

Plus the only reason they have firearms is because you do, Your the ones keeping the LAW that allows the person "Raping" your wife to have that firearm in the first place

edit on 26/1/11 by TedHodgson because: (no reason given)

Looks to me like you get off more on starting an argument then trying to justify your position on guns. I can guarantee you I won't shake a bit. If I see two criminals, with guns, and I have a gun, because of education and proper training, two bullets would be all I utilize. And, I would stop them, not kill them. Because the object is defensive, not aggression. I am not sure what fantasy land you live in, if you so choose not to own firearms, then don't. ......wow ... I am not sure who is worse, you or the criminals ..

reply to post by Truth_Hz


Another nutter from England that doesn't have a clue.

Do you think that violent crime in the US is in the rural areas of Michigan, or back woods Alabama???

It's in the poor, bad city areas where lots of people don't want to go and the majority is gang violence against each other only...lol....

Do you think that all us cities are like the wild west with shootouts over honor??

wow....

Jaden

Originally posted by brokedown
If there were no firearms people would use swords and spears , bows and arrows. Some Humans are just violent by nature, the rest of us need to protect our families and ourselves from these mis-guided souls.

The sight of Firearms do not scare me, it is just the opposite for me, the lack of a visible firearm is disconcerting. I understand that most of my fellow countrymen are well adjusted, law abiding, patriot Americans, who would lay down their own life for the protection of others. So when I see people caring their firearm in public I am safer, because I know that a criminal will choose a soft, unprotected target over a well armed group. When they don’t make that choice we have a word for that as well, it is Suicide. There are some “crazies” out there and when the entire group is armed the actions of said “Crazies” is severely limited.

If is was up to me I would allow firearms to be carried openly by everyone, everywhere. I can assure you that the crime rate would fall.

Kudos to you, very well said, Their may be a day when their are no criminal or do-gooders who want everyone to live their way only. Until that day comes, I will carry my and maintain my firearms in a safe and lawful way ...

Originally posted by TedHodgson
reply to post by ganjoa

 

Thats what i hope for to be honest, But when everyones armed and ready to fight each other there will only be fighting and Darkness, Only when people lay down their arms and stop acting like animals will people feel safe on the streets again, But everyone feels they have to right to kill, Nobody Has the right to TAke a life and thats what people with guns do, They take lives.

All animals have the ability to kill, However we have speech and speech is more powerfull than any cowardly weapon anyday

edit on 26/1/11 by TedHodgson because: (no reason given)

Which people are you referring to. People is vague. You fail to forget who the ones are that are using the guns criminal means ...

reply to post by Truth_Hz

I am intrigued as to where you get your figures from as within that Home office document it clearly shows a 50% decrease in violent crimes since 1995 and firearms offences have reduced by about 2000 incidents since 2005.

I was comparing the numbers to the 1997 numbers because that was the year the ban and confiscation began. So, I will admit to not even checking the 1995 numbers. So from 1995 there is a big decrease, but compared to 1997 violence against the person has risen. That seems wierd. Was there some external influence that made 1995 more violent than 1997?

Stats only say so much. It is obviously a complicated issue and I wish I knew more about your recent history.

Near the begining of the document there is a section that covers the findings for the major types of crime. It is an actual written statement of what they believe the stats to mean. In that section they said most of the decrease in firearms offenses came from a drop in the number of imitation firearms used. I took it too mean that the number of real firearms used to threaten and assault remained the same, even though the total numbers had fallen.

It also shows that the majority of firearms offences are against those under 30

That tends to be the same in America. Most of the people using guns illegally are felons and gang bangers shooting each other. I thank here our big group is 18 - 25 or there abouts. We also see most of this crime in concentrated urban areas with large populations.

In 2007 there were 12,632 murders using firearms and 613 unintentional fire arm deaths. Now I will freely admit that I intentionally leave out suicides using guns. My main reason is that it skews the numbers. Most suicides are not spontaneous things. They are well thought out and come after long periods of depression, medical difficulties, or mental instability. The vast majority of suicides would still occur with or without access to guns. That is the main difference in our death by firearm numbers.

The thing about the injury numbers is that the CDC includes criminals shot during self defense scenarios. So, if I shoot somebody that pulls a gun on me the CDC will list him as injured. The numbers are high, but when you understand that estimates figure between 1.25 and 2.5 million defensive gun uses per year the numbers fall in to perspective. Looking at the all intents injury numbers for 2007 I get about half of your injury number. Maybe we are looking at the stats differently. However, I would like to think the number is dropping.

webapp.cdc.gov...

When comparing numbers though we have to compare the per capita rate and not just the raw number. America has a population of 301 million people.

There are a couple of things to remember about America. Firearms are used at least 1.25 million times per year to successfully defend against crime. So, the numbers actually are in the favor of the good guy. The second thing to remember is that even if you got rid of all of America's gun related murders our murder rate would be close to double that of England. America is more violent.

I will continue to look at wht the Home Office has to say. I still believe every person has the right to use necessary force in defence. It seems that as a whole the English are less inclined to murder. It seems though that their city youth are just as violent in other areas as America's youthful offenders.

I still stand by the idea that peacable citizens should have the right to a fire arm for self defense. The fact that a gun murder isn't a big problem for an 80 year old doesn't negate that a violent home invader could kill him easily through "simple" assault. As one of the old gun owner sayings goes, "It isn' about the odds, it is about the stakes."

It strikes me that the English view is too look at the odds and say "it won't happen to me." The American way is to say, "see those three guys, I could have been one of them."

I disagree. Did you ever see the movie inglorious basterds? The part where one guy shoots off his gun and then the rest start shooting at the wrong person,well at the end of the scene they all end up dead.

reply to post by TedHodgson

You obviously weren't ever in a city that turned inside out upside down violent.

I was in the middle of the Los Angeles riots in 1992. The police did NOTHING to stop it when it started and then couldn't do anything about it after it was completely out of control.

At the time my wife was out of town and my mother-in law was visiting and staying in the back room of my house. I was sleeping about 1am and the dog barked. I heard footsteps come up the front porch next to my bedroom window and someone started trying to get in the front door and messing with the window next to it.

My bedroom window was on the right of the front entrance. They kept playing with the door and my dog was barking. I've been a target/skeet shooter almost all my life. I grabbed (one of) my 12 gauge shotguns and stood next to the window and *racked* a round in to the chamber and screamed "come through that door M*F*r and I'll cut you in half", figuring if it was a neighbor that needed help they would identify themselves and I'd let them in. The next thing I heard was footsteps running down the stairs away from the house and I looked out the window to see 2 men in dark hoodies running away. I'm glad I didn't have to use the gun. The police would never made it there even if they could, in time, to help and I very well could have saved my mom-in-laws and my life.

Once in LA I was woodworking in my garage in the alley. A guy came up in a car, and started yelling at me and threatening me with a sledge hammer (dumb). Then he went to his trunk and pulled out what he called an AK (I knew it was a MAK-90, semi, not full auto like an AK) and aimed it at me. My wife was there and ran inside and called the police. He stayed yelling at me for awhile something about me calling him a racial slur (I've NEVER been a rascist, ever!) The police showed up 45 minutes later, of course with great authority in charge of everything, wanting to know what I was doing in my garage in the alley. I was covered in sawdust with a half built cedar chest and tools in front of me. I said to the officer "you're not going for detective are you?". They didn't like that comment. I told them the guys license plate number, showed them the house down the block where the guy lived and they left. Driving right the guys house without even slowing down.

Any city, even here in the US, can explode in violence at any time making victims of a lot of innocent people. It's happened more than once here.

Unfortunately police don't or can't always be trusted to help. They let the riots start and did nothing to stop them, and were useless when I needed them the most. ( I have friends and relatives that are cops, and I generally like police, by the way).

Bad guys will ALWAYS have access to guns and as long as they do, I will too. If I didn't, I might be dead and not writing this now. I'll agree it's a sad fact. But still...

Some people here are docile sheep contentedly grazing in the meadow of life, oblivious to the danger of the wolves among us creeping through the treeline waiting to catch one of the sheep while it's obliviously grazing. The sheep thinks if it blatts enough and carries on making wretched noises, that the wolf will release the deathgrip on it's throat and that the other sheep will help. It doesn't happen. Sure the sheep made a bunch of racket and commotion, but it still died in the jaws of the wolf. The moral of this story? You can run your mouth all you want, it won't stop you from having your head torn off by an agressive attacker. I think I'll continue to exercise my 2nd Amendment right and continue to carry and own numerous weapons. Deterrence is a powerful weapon in and of itself. Being mouthy is not a deterrent, ask anyone who's every been whipped in a barfight: it doesn't stop an ass whipping.

Originally posted by TedHodgson
reply to post by Rocky Black

 

Good job a dont live in philly, That way i wont go around killing people with my Man-Weapon accidently

Fortunately ive studied hard and got a house away from Violence though i experienced a lot of it when i lived with my parents in one of the worst area's of england.

Yeah sure i got my mobile stolen once Oh and i got punched once because i stole someones pint, But blowing peoples brains out isnt the answer and i got by.

Despite the area that i lived in i only ever saw One gun that was dropped in my back garden when i was 6, I allmost killed my mum thinking it was a Toy.

I would rather die than carry something that could take a life from anyone.

That makes me one of the best possible people i can be, And thats why ive got far in life

Listen pal, having a gun is not an intent to kill. If you can't control yourself in a situation, then you shouldn't have a gun. People kill people, not guns, getting slapped for stealing as you did, why would you pull a gun ? You make no sense. If you have a solution to the problem, give it.

$18? Are you kidding me? Wouldn't it have been easier to just give him the money? It's only $18 give me a break. Save all the hassle of putting your life in danger or killing someone over $18.

There's a story on CNN right now about a guy working for Subway who starts punching out the robber. Does anyone see the absurdity of working minimum wage and putting your life in danger for a corporation making millions? When there's probably at the most $150 in the cash register? And it's not even your money? It's really laughable. But the media makes these guys out to be heroes. Heroes for whom? Subway?

I think the answer is 2000 years old and no one seems to remember. "If someone takes your cloak, give him your tunic also." That's just so much easier than fighting back or using guns.