What the Jews Accept from their Messiahs

A Comparison of King Herod the Great with King Solomon

I recently watched the National Geographic, Herod's Lost Tomb. The central thesis is that Herod was actually the architectural genius who designed most of the Roman Era forts and cities of the Roman province of Judea.

Intro
Herod's bloody reputation has always hidden another side of one of the Bible's greatest villains - an architectural mastermind of breathtaking proportions. An Israeli archaeologist claims to have found Herod's most intimate creation of all - his tomb.

LITTLE KNOWN LEGACY
Herod the Great, the king of the holy land in the time of Christ, is best known for the murders of his wife, three sons, and all of Bethlehem’s male children under two. His bloody reputation has always hidden the fact that Herod was one of the greatest and most imaginative builders in world history.

In and around ancient Judea Herod built about 22 world-class temples, palaces, fortresses, and cities.

At Masada he turned a crude mountaintop stronghold into a fortified palace complex that seemed to defy gravity.

At Caesarea he built the Mediterranean’s largest deep-water port; a feat some believe should be considered one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World.

With his expansion of Jerusalem’s Second Temple, Herod built the largest sacred complex of its time;dwarfing the pagan shrines of Rome and equal to the size of about 26 football fields.

Though Jewish by faith, Herod was an Arab by blood.

Jerusalem’s Second Temple was part of one of the largest sacred complexes of its time. To keep it pure, it’s said, Herod trained 1,000 Jewish priests in construction techniques.

Herod built the Western Wall, Judaism’s most sacred site.

At Herodium, Herod built one of the largest palace complexes anywhere, and chose to be buried there. Yet Herod’s burial contained a maddening riddle concerning where he built his tomb.

A Note: Although it is conventional for people to consider Herod's temple to be merely an expansion of the 2nd temple, I don't find the reasoning to be exactly reasonable. The claim is that since the daily sacrifice was not interrupted while the 2nd temple was completely disassembled and the foundation raised 20 feet and a whole new temple built, that the 3rd temple is still the 2nd temple.

As I watched the program, I was struck with the idea that here, in real-life, historically and archeologically confirmable terms is the mirror image of what was achieved in the mythical story of Solomon.

David the Messiah, had just conquered militarily a territory that could be called a kingdom. It was not yet a place of note in the world. Solomon, son of David, Messiah, through alliance with Egypt, transformed the country from a backwater to a thriving center of trade and commerce primarily through expanding sea trade. He built a temple in a previously Jebusite fortress city that became a focus for world tourism.

In the same way, Antipater, Herod's father had just about impoverished Judea in order to support Gaius Cassius Longinus against Mark Antony after the assassination of Julius Caesar. After the battle of Philippi, Herod went to Rome with Mark Antony and Octavian (later named Augustus), to be named King of the Jews by the Roman senate, and confirmed as Messiah of Jupiter Capitoline through sacrifices.

It took Herod and his Roman legions three years to finally take control of Jerusalem from Hasmonean Antigonus and his Parthian patrons. Once Judea became a firm province of Rome, the commerce flowed due to the building of Caesarea Maritima. Herod's temple was, as far as I can tell, the largest temple in the world during its existence. Quite the tourist attraction with all the business tourism brings.

So what is it that the Jews accept from their Messiahs? Stuff, like holy walls. Worldwide glory and acclaim, which brings tourism shekels, and thriving business. Military power and might. But the Messiahs themselves are quite often held in contempt. "Herod was no real Jew." they say, "He was an Edomite. But this wall is very holy."

Good post ...bump ....I suppose there are some Jews ,like some Christians that don't think about things like that .
Far to often, the people within religions don't ask and don't care to know .I recently came across professor Walter Vieth's lectures on amassing discoveries that I find fascinating .The one that shows from the book of Daniel the date the Messiah would appear .
He does a good job explaining the book of Revelation ,the Beast and all the timing of things in History ...The series is called the total onslaught series ,well worth a look ....peace amazingdiscoveries.tv...

Talmud:
“When the Messiah comes every Jew will have 2800 slaves” Simeon Haddarsen, fol. 56-D

reply to post by jessejamesxx

The Babylonian Talmud
Translated by Michael L. Rodkinson (1918)
A search for Talmud at Google will turn up hundreds of thousands of hits, a depressing number of which are to anti-Semitic sites. However, to our knowledge this is the first extensive English translation of the Talmud to be posted on the Internet. The Talmud is a vast collection of Jewish laws and traditions.

I've seen numerous lists of quotes purporting to be from the Talmud. If I could read Hebrew, I would probably have a copy of it in my library. I think I'll adopt the policy of ignoring Talmud quotes unless they are linkable to a reputable source.

But speaking of slavery:

1KI 9:20 All the people left from the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites (these peoples were not Israelites), 21 that is, their descendants remaining in the land, whom the Israelites could not exterminate--these Solomon conscripted for his slave labor force, as it is to this day. 22 But Solomon did not make slaves of any of the Israelites; they were his fighting men, his government officials, his officers, his captains, and the commanders of his chariots and charioteers. 23 They were also the chief officials in charge of Solomon's projects--550 officials supervising the men who did the work.
NIV

So yes, slavery of "the other", those there before the Messiah's people arrive, does seem consistent with the model.

reply to post by the2ofusr1
I've watched three of Walter Vieth's lectures so far, and apart from the fact that he would simply lump me in with "the New Agers" and warn people to stay away from me and my Pagan teachings, I actually have other misgivings concerning his teachings.

He claims in one of his lectures to have been an initiate into the occult and to have been an aura reader. He claims in another lecture to have been raised Roman Catholic. He has adopted an underlying teaching consistent with Seventh-day Adventist, but seems to be on a personal quest to link every teaching, movement, secret society, sect, teacher, spiritual leader, not holding his particular understanding of the Bible as somehow controlled by the "ultra-evil Jesuits and their creation Freemasonry" so much so that the Jesuits managed somehow to travel back in time 900 years in order to create Islam.

reply to post by pthena
Hi ...I don't get the same understanding towards him .I think he said his father was a high level mason and yes most of his family were catholics . you said you are a pagan teacher??? or he would label you a pagan teacher? I do recall him saying he participated in the occult and heard what he thought was his dead mother speaking to him,that is true ..I fooled around with a wiji board once ...I don't know if that would make me a initiate ,I hope not anyway He is not alone in his suggestion that all roads lead to Rome and the Jesuits working behind the scenes in secret societies ..
do you have a good understanding of the underlying teachings of the Seventh-day Adventist? I have only recently started reading about them and am curious .
When I watched this vid amazingdiscoveries.tv... the man behind the mask I was convinced who the anti-christ was ..Rome seams to be Pagan grand central a la max .....peace

Parentage

Solomon Messiah, son of David Messiah, son of Jesse, son of Obed, son of Ruth the Moabite. Ref: Ruth 4:17-22.
That's four generations. The Law doesn't even allow the 10th generation of Moabites into the assembly.

DT 23:3 No Ammonite or Moabite or any of his descendants may enter the assembly of the LORD, even down to the tenth generation.

Herod Messiah, son of Antipater I the Idumaean (died 43 BC) by Cypros, a Nabataean noblewoman. The Law requirement is:

DT 23:7 Do not abhor an Edomite, for he is your brother. Do not abhor an Egyptian, because you lived as an alien in his country. 8 The third generation of children born to them may enter the assembly of the LORD.

However, the Edomites, AKA Idumeans, had ceased to exist as a separate people due to annexation and forced convertion by Messiah John Hyrcanus, King of the Jews and High Priest.

Hasmonean_expansion
John Hyrcanus, Simon's third son, assumed the leadership and ruled from 135-104 BC. As Ethnarch and High Priest of Jerusalem, Hyrcanus annexed Trans-Jordan, Samaria, Galilee, and Idumea (also known as Edom), and forced Idumeans to convert to Judaism:

"Hyrcanus...subdued all the Idumeans; and permitted them to stay in that country, if they would circumcise their genitals, and make use of the laws of the Jews; and they were so desirous of living in the country of their forefathers, that they submitted to the use of circumcision, and of the rest of the Jewish ways of living; at which time therefore this befell them, that they were hereafter no other than Jews."(Josephus, Ant. xiii, 9:1)

Some Jews accepted Messiah Herod as a legitimate Jew, whereas others, Pharisees and zealots never did. This seems to be part of the rupture between the Sadducees and Pharisees.

So, the Jews accepted the annexation of Idumean land even though some never accepted the Idumean people as equal.

reply to post by the2ofusr1
I view myself as an old-time (late Neolithic or early Bronze Age) Pagan (outsider, outside civilized religions). The official ancient Roman religion is not Pagan because the religions were not outside the norms established as official. You can see that if I hear someone say, "That's Jupiter worship, that's Pagan!" I would disagree and say "That's not Pagan, that is Orthodox Roman".

I am Pagan, I do not recognize Jupiter or Zeus or Amun or YHWH as Father God. Like I said, I'm old school and feel misunderstood when I am called "New Age".

do you have a good understanding of the underlying teachings of the Seventh-day Adventist?

Born and raised and even half-way completed pre-ministerial education. It's a fairly decent denomination, at least teaching wise. I recommend it highly above any of the American Fundamentalist and Pentecostal groups.

I hold a minority opinion that, no, not all roads lead to Rome, they seem to lead to Jerusalem. I focus my concern against Christian and Jewish Zionism, and consider anti-Roman agendas as a distraction from the real game, for even the Christian Zionists hold no love for Rome.

A Dark Force associated with the temple:
Solomon's Temple

1KI 8:10 When the priests withdrew from the Holy Place, the cloud filled the temple of the LORD. 11 And the priests could not perform their service because of the cloud, for the glory of the LORD filled his temple.

1KI 8:12 Then Solomon said, "The LORD has said that he would dwell in a dark cloud; 13 I have indeed built a magnificent temple for you, a place for you to dwell forever."

I doubt that anybody would take National Geographic as canon, but here's some interesting screenshots I took of National Geographic 3d tour of Herod's temple.
channel.nationalgeographic.com...

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/fc4b572474c1.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b4c023eaa750.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/7ce519d51253.jpg[/atsimg]

Pretty weird. I don't know what National Geographic is implying by this. Does this pattern mean anything to anyone?

Gold Makes Everything Holy

As Jesus pointed out:

MT 23:16 "Woe to you, blind guides! You say, `If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, `If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.' 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?

I'd been thinking about this gold for some time. Then, a couple of nights ago, I heard the report on the radio that one of the statues stolen from the Museum in Cairo on Jan 28 was a wooden statue covered with gold, that is, gilded. Aha! Covering things like statues, idols, and other such forbidden items with gold makes them not just acceptable, but downright holy.

Exodus 20:4 (Amplified Bible)
You shall not make yourself any graven image [to worship it] or any likeness of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;

graven image
n.
An idol or fetish carved in wood or stone.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

So, the commandment engraved into this tablet carved out of stone is problematic. Is it actually a fetish?

fetish,
n
1. (Social Science / Anthropology & Ethnology) something, esp an inanimate object, that is believed in certain cultures to be the embodiment or habitation of a spirit or magical powers

Collins English Dictionary - Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003

How then should such a thing be made holy, or at least something hidden away?

EX 25:10 "Have them make a chest of acacia wood--two and a half cubits long, a cubit and a half wide, and a cubit and a half high. 11 Overlay it with pure gold, both inside and out, and make a gold molding around it...

EX 25:17 "Make an atonement cover of pure gold--two and a half cubits long and a cubit and a half wide. 18 And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. 19 Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends. 20 The cherubim are to have their wings spread upward, overshadowing the cover with them. The cherubim are to face each other, looking toward the cover. 21 Place the cover on top of the ark and put in the ark the Testimony, which I will give you. 22 There, above the cover between the two cherubim that are over the ark of the Testimony, I will meet with you and give you all my commands for the Israelites.

So, covering carved out stone in a carved out wooden box, covered with gold makes everything good. And idols made of hammered gold are so holy that the angel claiming to be god, will meet with the Moses there between the golden idols.

How about altars then?

EX 20:24 " `Make an altar of earth for me and sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, your sheep and goats and your cattle. Wherever I cause my name to be honored, I will come to you and bless you. 25 If you make an altar of stones for me, do not build it with dressed stones, for you will defile it if you use a tool on it.

Dirt is OK, undressed stone is OK, carved stone not OK, but wooden altar covered up with bronze seems OK.

EX 27:1 "Build an altar of acacia wood, three cubits high; it is to be square, five cubits long and five cubits wide. 2 Make a horn at each of the four corners, so that the horns and the altar are of one piece, and overlay the altar with bronze.

What can we say then about the 40 Pharisees that Herod had burned alive for smashing the Roman Eagle?

Herod the Great
Herod's troubles with Jewish factions, however, had not ended. Although he succeeded in wining over most of the Sadducees and gained popularity by influencing a Roman policy to protect the rights of Jews in the Diaspora, he was beginning to lose support among the Pharisees. In 6 B.C.E., he executed several Pharisaic leaders who had announced that the birth of the Messiah would mean the end of Herod's rule. Then, in 4 B.C.E., when young Torah-students smashed the golden Roman eagle over the main entrance of Herod's Temple, he had 40 of them along with two of their professors burned alive.

Surely they died in vain. Hadn't they read or understood that Gold images, and silver images, and bronze images are holy to the god? Didn't they read about all the metal images that Solomon had all around and inside his mythical temple?

Solomon's Gold Cherubim & etc

The cedar and pine for the interior of Solomon Messiah's fabled temple were supplied from Hirum, king of Tyre, in exchange for wheat, as related in 1 Kings 5. 1 Kings 6, The interior walls were completely lined with cedar wood, and the floor was covered with pine, so that no stone was visible inside. The wood was then covered with gold, so that no wood was visible. Carved (engraved) into the walls were images of cherubim, open flowers, and palm trees.

In the inner sanctuary of the temple were two 15 foot (4.5 meter) cherubim carved from olive wood and covered in gold. What do cherubim look like?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d5b28ece63db.jpg[/atsimg]

www.bibleorigins.net...
ink sketch of King Hiram of Byblos in Phoenicia, seated on a "Cherub throne" according to the late Professor William Foxwell Albright, who dates Hiram to the 10th century BCE and world of King Solomon. The scene is from his stone sarcophagus. (for the ink sketch cf. p. 96. William Foxwell Albright. "What were the Cherubim ?" G. Ernest Wright & David Noel Freedman. Editors. The Biblical Archaeologist Reader. Chicago. Quadrangle Books, Incorporated. 1961)

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/bff35f4d9b11.jpg[/atsimg]

www.bibleorigins.net...
Cherub (Assyrian type, 9th century BCE), lion-bodied, winged, engages a winged god with sword, perhaps "protecting" the stylized "Sacred Tree" ( A Palm Tree).(cf. p.62, fig. 160. Heinz Demisch. Die Sphinx, Geschichte ihrer Darstellung von den Anfangen bis zur Gegenwart. Stuttgart. Verlag Urachhaus Johannes M. Mayer. 1977. ISBN 3-87838-219-7)

In these two pictures we have all the elements used as decor and/or sacred images: Cherubim, Flower (most likely Lotus, sacred in Egypt and up the Mediterranean coast into Lebanon), and Palm trees, sacred in Assyria and probably most of Mesopotamia.

It's quite evident then that the mythical grandest and most glorious golden days of Israelite history were chalk full of what some rational minds would term idolatry. But it was all covered up with gold so that makes it OK.

Also brought into doubt is the common claim that Judaism, or the Torah religion, are somehow totally unique in the world, not similar to or resembling the idolatrous religions of the peoples around them.

answer: one that accomplishes the prophecies in ONE lifetime - a human one, not divine. THE Messiah that won't be worshiped.

Reasons Jesus was NOT the Jewish Messiah:

Divine birth/divinity (the Jewish Messiah will NOT be divine. He will be human.) G-d cannot become human: Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 44:6, Hosea 11:9, Ezekiel 28:2, Numbers 23:19

Performing Miracles – the Jewish Messiah will NOT perform miracles but will accomplish them

Taking on the sins of others: no one can take on the sins of others: Deuteronomy 24:16, Exodus 32:30-35, Ezekiel 18:1-4, 20-24; 26-27

Breaking the Sabbath – the Jewish Messiah will be observant.

Sacrificed/Rising from the dead: G-d rejects human sacrifice and blood sacrifice is NOT an absolute requirement for the absolution of sin – Deuteronomy 12:30-31, Jeremiah 19:4-6, Psalm 106:37-38, Ezekiel 16:20, Leviticus 5:11-13, Jonah 3:10, Leviticus 17, Leviticus 5:11-13, Numbers 16:47, Numbers 31:50, Isaiah 6:6-7, Jeremiah 7:22-23, Psalm 51:16-17

Prophecies Unfilled – the Jewish Messiah will accomplish ALL the prophecies in one lifetime.

The Jewish Messiah cannot trace his lineage through Jehoiakim, Jeconiah, or Shealtiel, because this royal line was cursed (I Chronicles 3:15-17, Jeremiah 22:18, 30). But according to Matthew 1:11-12 and Luke 3:27, Jesus was a descendant of Shealtiel

Communion – the ‘last supper’ – No Jew would ever call upon followers and fellow Jews to even symbolically consume blood and flesh.

Jesus is worshiped – the eternal covenant between G-d and Jews is that Jews will worship G-d and only G-d and G-d does not become a man. Numbers 23:19, Hosea 11:9, 1 Samuel 15:29, Job 9:32-33, Ezekiel 28:9, Hosea 4:15, Malachi 3:6

thanks to What Jews Believe website, Mama P and tweaking of my own (Aravah)

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The actual prophecies about the Jewish Messiah
* The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)
* Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
* The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
* He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10)
* The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
*****In other words - this must all be accomplished in a human lifetime*****
* Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
* Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
* He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
* All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
* Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
* There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
* All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
* The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
* He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
* Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
* The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
* The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
* Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
* The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvot
* He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)
* Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)
* He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
* He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9).

reply to post by FrenchFryRio

one that accomplishes the prophecies in ONE lifetime - a human one, not divine. THE Messiah that won't be worshiped.

Then David wasn't Messiah? Was Solomon Messiah? John Hyrcanus? Aaron? Is there one and only one Messiah?

reply to post by pthena


More information for you fellow user!
www.jewfaq.org...
www.chabad.org...

reply to post by FrenchFryRio
I don't think those two references have the same definition for Moshiac, the first speaks of a person yet to come, and the second seems to imply that he is here in the collective being of Jews.

Moshiach and the Future Redemption
Every mitzvah we do is part of creating that world. Every moment of our history, that hope beats in our hearts.

Today we discover that humanity has bought into our dream. That the pieces are neatly falling in place. That rays of a new dawn have already begun to shine.

Which do you endorse?

reply to post by pthena


The Massiah will come soon! He is apart of us all. he is only one person! Reread the links!

reply to post by FrenchFryRio

He is apart of us all. he is only one person!

Do you mean:
1) He is apart from us all. He is only one person.
or
2) He is a part of us all. He is only one person. ?

1) states the uniqueness in two ways.
2) would be seemingly contradictory, yet imply some mystical union.

You should actually read my thread. My starting assumption is that there are many Messiahs mentioned in the Bible, basically any anointed as king or priest. If some one says Solomon was not Messiah, then that confirms my thesis that Jews accept the material things brought by the Messiah but not the Messiah himself.

reply to post by pthena


the first one. I'm talking about the promised Messiah!

reply to post by FrenchFryRio
Then David isn't Messiah? Nor Solomon? Nor Aaron? Nor Elisha? How about Ezra? Have there been no Messiahs?

Messiah Cyrus Called by Name

ISA 44:28 who says of Cyrus, `He is my shepherd
and will accomplish all that I please;
he will say of Jerusalem, "Let it be rebuilt,"
and of the temple, "Let its foundations be laid." '

ISA 45:1 "This is what the LORD says to his anointed,
to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of
to subdue nations before him
and to strip kings of their armor,
to open doors before him
so that gates will not be shut:

So the LORD aka YHWH chose Cyrus as His(YHWH's) Messiah. He is promised occult (hidden) treasure.

ISA 45:3 I will give you the treasures of darkness,
riches stored in secret places,
so that you may know that I am the LORD,
the God of Israel, who summons you by name.

ISA 45:4 For the sake of Jacob my servant,
of Israel my chosen,
I summon you by name
and bestow on you a title of honor,
though you do not acknowledge me.

So this occult knowledge of YHWH does not even require the acknowledgment of YHWH. Does that mean that Cyrus was free to acknowledge other traditional gods yet still be Messiah? Is that conditional upon things done for Israel?

ISA 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is no other;
apart from me there is no God.
I will strengthen you,
though you have not acknowledged me,

ISA 45:6 so that from the rising of the sun
to the place of its setting
men may know there is none besides me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other.

So this YHWH will use a non-acknowledger of YHWH in order to prove to all men on earth that YHWH is the one-and-only god.

Now what exactly was Messiah Cyrus supposed to do?

EZR 1:2 "This is what Cyrus king of Persia says:
" `The LORD, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth and he has appointed me to build a temple for him at Jerusalem in Judah. 3 Anyone of his people among you--may his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem in Judah and build the temple of the LORD, the God of Israel, the God who is in Jerusalem. 4 And the people of any place where survivors may now be living are to provide him with silver and gold, with goods and livestock, and with freewill offerings for the temple of God in Jerusalem.' "

Build a temple in Jerusalem And anyone living next to a "survivor" should give said survivor silver and gold and goods and livestock and offerings for this temple. So the occult knowledge given to Messiah Cyrus led him to build a temple in Jerusalem.

What is this obsession with temples? And if Messiah Cyrus has already done all this, then haven't all the prophesies come true? Haven't we been living in the wonderful age of paradise since 516 BCE?

Let us all sing and shout the praises of him who has accomplished all that he desired through Cyrus his Messiah. It is all done, it is all accomplished! Is this crass wickedness on my part, to sound sarcastic? If I had shouted it back in 516 BCE, it wouldn't have sounded like sarcasm. So what's different?