If you say it, own it

I had a long internal debate about where to put this thread, and it might not even have wound up in the right place, but here goes...,

If you're going to say or be part of an organization that says things repeatedly, and you get called out on it, why try to convince people that it isn't so? We heard you say it. It was recorded for posterity. Why try to deny it?

If you made the adult, intelligent, rational decision to allow words to come out of your mouth, cop to the fact that you did it at least. You can also say that maybe it wasn't the best idea or you can stick to your guns. Why lie?

Don't insult our intelligence by denying or lying about what we all know we saw. Are you hoping we'll forget?

As example 1, I give you from Media Matters for America from the left and this article: Fox's Kelly Absurdly Claims Fox Personalities Do Not Invoke Nazis

(Please don't get hung up on the fact that it's a Media Matters example. There is simply some solid appearing research there that provides a lot of room for discussion.)

As example 2, I give you from Media Research Center on the right and this article, which just happens to be on the same subject: After Linking Conservatives to Hateful Rhetoric, NBC Skips Dem Who Compared the GOP to Nazis

(Is this really an intelligent response to accusations? Or is it simply looking for that one disproportionate example to throw back in this childish tit-for-tat war that seems to be permeating our society and even this board?)

So, anyway, when did it become okay to not discuss the fundamental issues and analyze the alarming characteristics, results, and consequences of such behavior on our society, our nation, and even our children and instead become okay to just keep flinging poop back and forth at each other while our country crumbles and then deny it or somehow try to excuse it because, hey, they're doing it too!

Even the fact that we feel the need to have these two opposing organizations going at each other in this way makes it pretty obvious that both are hell bent on continuing it. The implications of this should be quite alarming as well, perhaps on several levels. The most obvious being that they want it this way. They want us focused on trivial matters and to engage in shouting matches and ignore the real problems and issues facing us.

You know, children, when caught in a fib or doing something wrong, might at first try to deny that they did it and then maybe try to deflect the blame or show the unfairness of it all (they got caught but so-and-so didn't). But with the proper adult guidance and growth they eventually see that the consequences of taking responsibility are often far less scary and eventually realize the error of their ways. Children also tend to, not knowing any better, align behind the one who yells the loudest. With guidance and standards set by worthy role models, eventually they see and question the sanity of this particular behavior/

Have we regressed to the mentality of little children? Have some never learned the lessons they should have or decided these lessons don't count, apply, or matter anymore? And why is no one paying attention to the adults?

So, again, the point of a possible discussion here is more why are we falling into such a culture of revisionism and not owning what we say? And, maybe more importantly, why do we keep accepting this blatant lying, hypocrisy, and divisiveness?

Why do we keep watching this drivel and talking about it and thus enable it and even encourage it? Is this the classic codependent relationship? And where does this all end? In apathy? Brawling in the streets? What?

Why are we allowing this? Do we have any control at all? Shutting off the TV doesn't help if so many others keep enabling this behavior.

I'd love to hear people's thoughts on the trend and where it's going to end and don't necessarily have a whole lot more to add. It's just today's musing on a subject that's getting pretty tired in my head.

Adults are just children in adult bodies with adult expectations.

reply to post by 547000

Hmmm...what's that mean? Are we doomed to keep using childish behaviors as we pretend to be attempting to fix adult problems?

reply to post by ~Lucidity


Someone once said... and I forget whom, that America (government) was less like a gathering of learned, August statesmen and more like a drunken tavern brawl.

Regardless of where I was at the time... politically and age-wise, I could never dispute that observation.

At times, the bickering seems entirely healthy because it represents the freedom to carry one's position to the nth degree. On the other hand, such divisiveness does nothing to impress those who sit back and watch in utter disgust.

Indeed, our modern political discourse has devolved into a partisan gladiatorial spectacle in the unholy political arena. Supporters cheer wildly for the blood of their opposites and gladly fall upon their own swords when called upon for the greater glory of their party.

But in the end, I think I prefer that people... all people, without regard to political slant or any other factor, have the right to speak whatever they so choose.

I was raised with the old view of... I may not agree with what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it.

I think that if we were to all show that basic respect to all, our politicians would eventually be forced to do the same.

Anyway, I do have a number of other thoughts regarding your OP... but will have to return to pick this up as my 'to-do' list is calling, lol.

To be continued...

reply to post by redoubt

I certainly don't disagree that people have a right to speak...it's more how they do it and do with it. Lying? Umm...does one really have a "right" to do that? Denying what we all know we heard or saw? ll I'm saying is OWN what you say.

Looking forward to hearing more of your thoughts.

Originally posted by ~Lucidity

So, anyway, when did it become okay to not discuss the fundamental issues and analyze the alarming characteristics, results, and consequences of such behavior on our society, our nation, and even our children and instead become okay to just keep flinging poop back and forth at each other while our country crumbles and then deny it or somehow try to excuse it because, hey, they're doing it too!

I blame political correctness and the "victim mentality". PC makes it nearly impossible to directly address important and sensitive issues because the language used to discuss these issues is itself declared "hurtful" and "denigrating". This makes people fearful of stepping up and actually speaking their minds since they will be vilified for any slight mis-statement or for any part of what they say being taken out of context and "spun" to the worst possible meaning. Add to that the loss of true journalists and journalism itself, with the rise of corporate/political mouthpieces.

Even the fact that we feel the need to have these two opposing organizations going at each other in this way makes it pretty obvious that both are hell bent on continuing it. The implications of this should be quite alarming as well, perhaps on several levels. The most obvious being that they want it this way. They want us focused on trivial matters and to engage in shouting matches and ignore the real problems and issues facing us.

This is political theater designed to distract us from important issues by creating much ado about nothing.

You know, children, when caught in a fib or doing something wrong, might at first try to deny that they did it and then maybe try to deflect the blame or show the unfairness of it all (they got caught but so-and-so didn't). But with the proper adult guidance and growth they eventually see that the consequences of taking responsibility are often far less scary and eventually realize the error of their ways. Children also tend to, not knowing any better, align behind the one who yells the loudest. With guidance and standards set by worthy role models, eventually they see and question the sanity of this particular behavior/

This is one result of nannystatism. "Adults" are few and far between. Instead we have grown, infantile, adolescents who refuse to take responsibility for anything. Nothing is their fault because they never had to learn true responsibility.

Have we regressed to the mentality of little children?

Yes

Have some never learned the lessons they should have or decided these lessons don't count, apply, or matter anymore?

No

And why is no one paying attention to the adults?

Because those that do exist are vilified for their antiquated belief systems.

So, again, the point of a possible discussion here is more why are we falling into such a culture of revisionism and not owning what we say? And, maybe more importantly, why do we keep accepting this blatant lying, hypocrisy, and divisiveness?

Because schools no longer teach, and actually discourage critical thinking. Revisionism is rampant at all levels but especially in the public school system. Grab a 20 or 30 year old history text, then read one from today.

reply to post by ~Lucidity


Yep. Adults will always resort to childish things like that.

In a strange way, the liberal vs conservatives is an expression of the north vs south civil war. Sure, there're liberals in the south and there're conservatives in the north, but if you look at the northern states there're a lot of blue ones. Makes you wonder doesn't it. Texas is one of hte most red states in america and it's... a south state. Now, california...

reply to post by 547000

But why? Because people let them get away with it? Nothing wrong with being "childish" in some instances...in fact there's a lot right with it. But when the survival of our country is at stake? Not so much.

reply to post by jonnywhite

Interesting point, but I'm not entirely convinced the geographies or other divisions matter so much as the social trend that seems to be telling us that denying and lying is somehow acceptable.

reply to post by sonofliberty1776

Thank you for the well thought out reply. I too have to run now, but will be back to read it again and reply further.

reply to post by ~Lucidity

I would have to agree. Say what you mean, and mean what you say. If you can't stand behind your words, then go home and hide.
Don't let others interpret your words for you. Stand up, have a voice.

S&F


I agree with you.

In one sense:

I think people need to take responsibility for what they say, which they oftentimes don't. The problem, i think, is that, in today's society and culture, what with the speed and the passion with which things happen, and the need to get things out as quickly as possible (whether news, people's opinions, rationales, justifications, etc), people do not THINK before they speak. I think that's the bottom line. People are so rash to make themselves heard that, by not thinking about what they say, they say things that they regret and things from which they want to dissociate themselves; AND, that they do not even recall saying most of what they do say, because they are so quick to verbally react rather than judge an appropriate response or statement by rational thinking.

I think if people would choose their words more carefully--would think before they speak--they would have no problem owning what they say, because it would be something that they believe, something that they would stand behind/own, something that means something, and not just a vacuous verbal reaction to whatever evoked it.

And, sadly, in many facets of today's world, taking time to think before speaking often means not getting heard. And people feel the need to be heard, or to be heard *first*. Therefore, content and substance suffer.

In another sense:

I think people simply do not really care, because others rarely remember what is said or done from day to day unless it directly affects them. Politician and pundits do it all the time: say one thing one day and say something completely opposite another day, and it's almost as if the people listening to them forget what happens from day to day, which is how the media oftentimes play it. Pretty sad, actually, that people do not pay attention enough to what is said, which allows the continuous contradictions to flow unabated.

reply to post by beezzer

Standing behind your words is important for sure. The other things is, we pretty much all make mistakes. Maybe we spoke from emotion or maybe before we had all the facts or maybe new facts came to light.

Nothing wrong with changing your mind later or admitting that you missed something. No need to deny or lie, especially when the evidence is right there. But this may be where that other thing comes into play (might rhyme with ego?)

Denying and lying only serves to make you feel better in the short term and to make others angry..

reply to post by Liquesence

Exactly on both counts. But we can forgive someone who's feeling high emotion to not always think before they speak. It's the not caring part that's really concerning. Say anything to get the results you want and everything and everyone else be damned? Who wants to live or work in that kind of world?

reply to post by sonofliberty1776

Political correctness is certainly partially to blame, but the fine line there is being outright rude to the other extreme, But you're right, the words we choose are important but not to the point of the ridiculous or outright preventing things from being said. We don't have to lie to be politically polite/correct either.

As for the victim mentality, spot on there too...people really might be getting too thin-skinned and too quick to point the finger, particularly when that's not even the real issue at stake or subject of the discourse.Are they storing something in their back pocket for future advantage? Or are they willing or unwilling pawns in again preventing communication, cooperation, and progress? .

What many of these people on TV and politicians do would be fine...if they're clear about what they're doing. A few issues lately have started to really highlight the differences between opinion and commentary and journalism, particularly when it comes to the areas that are libelous or slanderous. I for one hope that continues. Loudly. But we have an obligation to make sure it does, without fear of the repercussions that mostly those who have something to lose are so hellbent of perpetuating.

Political theater indeed. A concern here is that many don't recognize it as such or get caught up in it without being actual players with much to gain?

I'm often confused by the whole nannystatism thing. Seems to me both "sides" are guilty of that to one degree or another, in different areas maybe, with the laws they attempt to pass. Although said laws might often be masking their real intent too, to complicate matters even further.

Have some never learned the lessons they should have or decided these lessons don't count, apply, or matter anymore?

No

No? Are you saying they never learned? That's sad. It's sad too that the saner and more adult among us appear to be losing their voices more and more. The vilification really does dovetail off the lying and denying. Say anything first and loud and clear about someone and that's what will stick in the public consciousness.

Oh, and if the schools don't do it, I guess we have to as parents. Critical thinking is a skill many don't appear to be learning.

As for revisionism...I so agree...never before in history have we had the opportunity to actually watch it happen though. All hail the internet


A recent, interesting discussion thread here on Critical Thinking if you haven't already seen it.

Yes, the internet has a very long memory.

It is about encouraging individuals to voice their opinions respectfully and constructively while refusing to participate in anonymous and malicious character assassination. It is also about taking a personal stand for something and encouraging others to do the same.

Ultimately, Own What You Think is about collaborating, dissenting, learning and disagreeing in a constructive manner that allows us to grow as individuals and a society as a whole.

Source:www.ownwhatyouthink.com...

This does not appear to be happening over the last decade. It gets worse everyday. What is more important now is to be right. The repercussions and implications have little value.

I see many here state what they think is right, and defend it almost as feverently. What I don't see, is someone admitting they were wrong. Albiet, there are examples, and I have seen some, but with all the raging debate going on here, how many have said, "You are right. I was wrong"?

reply to post by ladyinwaiting


Excellent excerpt. And website. Wow...thanks so much for that. Same thing, really.. Very nice tie in.

Does this say anything about our social graces too? We could well be losing our ability to cooperate and actually communicate.

To be right at all costs even if we have to lie and deny and distract? Is that really even being right though? Or just the loudest and the fastest out there with the information (sonsoflibery alluded to the speed part). Getting out there fast is a leg up on spreading your side of the story, I guess.

Is being right now judged by how many people you can get to agree with you or vote for you or talk about you? Is that all that matters?

Eeeeek! I'm full of questions, but couldn't agree more.

reply to post by beezzer


Being wrong happens. Who hasn't been there? (In my case quite often...I have a card!)

Seems as if it would take a lot less energy sometimes and breed a lot more good will and cooperation if people were able to admit they were wrong more often. Think it might happen more often than we realize but just doesn't grab attention or the headlines?

Owning it means admitting your wrong when you are or standing up to challenges to your statements with facts and examples...not just putting it out there hoping to remain unchallenged. It's the fortitude to stand up to the challenge that makes it real.

Originally posted by ~Lucidity
Seems as if it would take a lot less energy sometimes and breed a lot more good will and cooperation if people were able to admit they were wrong more often. Think it might happen more often than we realize but just doesn't grab attention or the headlines?

No truer words have been spoken.

"So, again, the point of a possible discussion here is more why are we falling into such a culture of revisionism and not owning what we say? And, maybe more importantly, why do we keep accepting this blatant lying, hypocrisy, and divisiveness? "


Plausible denial-ability.

What was accurate one minute can change drastically the next however.....

We do own our words.
That was the best advice given to me by my father many years ago.

reply to post by SLAYER69

Nice play on words. Thanks.

And your father was so right. Most of our fathers were.