Removal of College Fraternity Secrets Threads

Yeah I think it's pretty ridiculous to not be able to post secrets of fraternities or sororities.

Here we are discussing top secret conspiracies about the government, posting pictures of government facilities and digging up as much possible information as we can, much of which might endanger national security, and then we can't discuss specifics of college drinking clubs?

It's a double standard. I guess we can talk about the other things because "they're not real"? In someone's opinion, apparently. Certainly doesn't make sense to me. Clearly we are to deny ignorance, except involving fraternities. It's okay to be ignorant about them.

Anyone wanting info on the Kappa Sigma ritual/initiation? [email protected]

Or, this guy posted the main part of the ritual/initiation on the blog section of his myspace page.

www.myspace.com/kappasigmaritual

[edit on 15-1-2008 by Kappasigmar]

What this thread is basically saying is anyone can higher a two bit lawyer to claim he is representing such and such group or persons and threaten legal action against ATS and the board will jump right out of his seat to bend over for that schill.

Seriously. Anyone can claim they are being infringed on, or that the represent anything and then start shutting ATS down one thread at a time.

Or all at once with my magically attorney speak!

I professionally represent stuff, and I hereby order you to cease and desist discussing stuff. The stuff you are discussing falls under my Trade Secrets about stuff.

When are we going to hear from the Al Qaida lawyers?
"Hey you crazy infidels, how we took down those towers is a trade secret, shut your holes!"

Seems really silly.

Originally posted by hallucinated
Lol, what the hell is with college fraternities. These people need to get lives.

Fraternities tend to have a lot of pre-law schmegs who think they understand the legal system. Having been in civil court a time or two, you can always tell them from the seasoned attorneys.

Your pal,
Meat.

Trade secrets do hold up in court, thats how the Church of Scientology has effectively sued and silenced critics.They also have filed frivolous lawsuit after frivolous lawsuit even if they don't know if they can win, just to drain individuals financially (lawyers aren't free) and have protested, and stalked people who speak out against them.

If you think Trade Secrets don't hold up in court, do a little more research into the CoS lawsuits.

cant talk about frats, can't talk about drugs.

it seems like you guys are trying to eliminate the 20-something crowd.

reply to post by scientist


This isn't the only site on the Web. You can talk about those topics elsewhere.

thanks, that's been made abundantly clear numerous times. Thanks again for the reconfirmation.

reply to post by Legalizer


Under most U.S. states' laws (sorry if I cannot speak for the rest of the world) a trade secret is
i) any knowledge that has *ANY* value
ii) that is subject to reasonable efforts to keep it secret.

Fraternity secrets have some value as they help build comraderie, are a source of amusement for fraternity members, and have some sentimental values for fraternity members. They are usually subject to reasonable efforts of secrecy because fraternities require their members to make an oath of secrecy and ritual books are usually kept under lock and key. The bar is set low for taking reasonable efforts to maintain a secret. An organization need not have Fort Knox protection of its secrets. Even if from time to time members of a particular fraternity are known to carelessly leave their ritual books out in public for somebody to see the law will still consider their secrets subject to reasonable efforts of secrecy because for the most part they tried to keep their ritual secret.

Under most U.S. states' laws, misappropriation of a trade secret occurs when you circumvent reasonable measures to maintain secrecy, divulge information which one knows or should know was subject to secrecy. In the case of a fraternity ritual being posted online, the website should know it was subject to secrecy.

Of course, First Ammendment freedom of speech rights come into play too. The big legal question is how free speech rights and trade secret rights interplay with eachother, and under what circumstances one would override the other. Under U.S. law, free speech is not an absolute right and often takes a back seat to other rights like the rights of others to be safe from violence and other people's intellectual property rights.

Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint
Under most U.S. states' laws (sorry if I cannot speak for the rest of the world) a trade secret is
i) any knowledge that has *ANY* value
ii) that is subject to reasonable efforts to keep it secret.

Really? I'm just asking, because it seems to me that 'trade secret' has a definition of:

"...all forms and types of financial, business, scientific, technical, economic, or engineering information, including patterns, plans, compilations, program devices, formulas, designs, prototypes, methods, techniques, processes, procedures, programs, or codes, whether tangible or intangible, and whether or how stored, compiled, or memorialized physically, electronically, graphically, photographically, or in writing if--
(A) the owner thereof has taken reasonable measures to keep such information secret; and
(B) the information derives independent economic value, actual or potential, from not being generally known to, and not being readily ascertainable through proper means by, the public; - Sec. 1839.3, Title 18, Chapter 90, U.S. Civil Code

It doesn't appear to be "any" knowledge that has "*ANY*" value.

Your pal,
Meat.

[sarcasm]This makes me feel all warm and fuzzy about ATS...[/sarcasm]


So, If I had undeniable proof that the Bush administration was behind 9-11 and posted it here, all they have to do is say "please take that down, we have a reason to keep that a secret." and it would be removed?

If I had a recording of the last Bilderberg group and posterd it here, all they have to do is say, " Please remove that information from your site, we have a reason that we need to keep that secret." it would be taken down.

......yep....Warm and fuzzy.

Originally posted by Lotiki
[sarcasm]This makes me feel all warm and fuzzy about ATS...[/sarcasm]


So, If I had undeniable proof that the Bush administration was behind 9-11 and posted it here, all they have to do is say "please take that down, we have a reason to keep that a secret." and it would be removed?

Do you?

If I had a recording of the last Bilderberg group and posterd it here, all they have to do is say, " Please remove that information from your site, we have a reason that we need to keep that secret." it would be taken down.

Do you?

......yep....Warm and fuzzy.

If you have that information, you should certainly post it. If not, then you'll never know and you're making some pretty silly accusations without any proof.

It's always up to the site owner to dictate what's appropriate or inappropriate. With a site this big with this many posts, I don't envy the work they've got.

Your pal,
Meat.

ATS simply complies with the Law as it applies to a website with its servers based in the United States:

Digital Millennium Copyright Act (Updated May 2nd, 2007)

It is our policy to respond to notices of alleged infringement that comply with the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (found at the U.S. Copyright Office) and other applicable intellectual property laws. It is our policy to remove material from public view that we believe in good faith to be copyrighted material that has been illegally copied and distributed by any of our members or users. It is also our policy to terminate the accounts of repeat offenders. If we remove or disable access to comply with the Digital Millennium Copyright Act we will make a good-faith attempt to contact the owner, author, or administrator of each affected site so that they may make a counter notification pursuant to sections 512(g)(2) and (3) of that Act.
Infringement Notification

If you believe that content residing on or accessible through our website infringes a copyright for which you own or are a designated agent, please send a notice of infringement by contacting us with information that sets forth the items specified below.

To expedite our ability to process your request, please use the following format:

* Title of the specific thread that contains the copyrighted work.
* Post number of the specific post that contains the copyrighted work.
* Link to the specific post (available via the "this post" link on each post) you believe contains the copyrighted material.
* Specific nature of the copyright infringement you believe is occurring.
* Details of your claim to the material, or your relationship to the material copyright holder.
* Provide your full name, address, and telephone number should we need to clarify your claim.
* Provide a working email address where we can contact you to confirm your claim.
* Include the following statement: "I have a good faith belief that use of the copyrighted materials described above on the allegedly infringing web pages is not authorized by the copyright owner, its agent, or the law."
* Include the following statement: "I swear, under penalty of perjury, that the information in the notification is accurate and that I am the copyright owner or am authorized to act on behalf of the copyright owner to make this complaint."

We will review your claim and determine its merit. If, after our review, we believe your claim is sufficient to remove the information from public view, we will do so immediately and provide you with confirmation. If your claim is insufficient to act upon, or, in our consideration the material has been posted with a good faith effort and compliant with the DMCA, we will notify you and provide you opportunity to clarify or seek additional remedy.

ATS DMCA Policy Statement

You may not like the law but it is the law and must be followed.
.

reply to post by mmmeat


. In the US, trade secrets are not protected by federal laws, but by state laws and state courts. The definition you cited is found in a federal law, but for the most part is pretty spot on in that it mimics the language found in the Model Codes. (For those of you who are not lawyers, a Model Code is a book written by law school professors which lists laws that many states end up adopting.)

Many states' courts will interpret "economic value" pretty loosely to include anything of any value. For example, a court found that the Scientologists' secret mythology had "economic value." Also, the examples listed in the definition of what a trade secret could be (e.g. "plans") are just examples and not an exhaustive list.

Even if some states' courts would not consider fraternity rituals trade secrets, there are some states' courts that would interpret the term loosely to include fraternity rituals. Fraternies could easily "forum shop," or pick the state whose laws are most favorable to the fraternities, and sue ATS in those states.

Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint
In the US, trade secrets are not protected by federal laws, but by state laws and state courts.

...and...

The definition you cited is found in a federal law

Well if that doesn't just contradict what you wrote I don't know what does.

While the federal government may not provide a civil remedy, it does - in the section I cited - make and define it as a crime.

When I had to file a lawsuit for just such a thing, I had to do it in federal court.

Your pal,
Meat.

reply to post by mmmeat


Hi mmeat,

I don't think the website operators are worried about criminal liability for misappropriating trade secrets by posting fraternity rituals on their website. Frat boys cannot initiate criminal proceedings against the website, the government has to initiate such proceedings. My guess is that the web site got a cease and desist letter from some frat boys threatening civil suit, not a letter from a U.S. attorney threatening a criminal action. As an aside, if the federal government did threaten the website with a criminal action, it would be great evidence of a conspiracy theory involving fraternities. Afterall, the government would not hassle a website like ATS for posting silly frat boy secrets because it is too busy trying to deal with *major* problems, unless certain officials in government are a little too concerned with fraternities.

You are right in that sometimes trade secret suits are filed in federal courts, but they are done so under diversity jurisdiction. Federal courts have diversity jurisdiction over lawsuits when people from two different states (or countries) are involved in a civil suit. In diversity suits, federal courts apply state laws. If you look at the pleadings from the trade secret case you were involved in, it will not only mention about diversity jurisdiction, but it will mention a trade secret cause of action invoking the trade secret law of a particular state.

Fair use law declares that small portions of any work can be quoted as long as it is criticized. If I quote a sentence from a ritual, then criticize it, I have done now worng. Furthermore, the information has to be proven esoteric. The majority of fraternity rituals contain information that is not esoteric. Guess what, there is a fraternity rituals that admits it; Lambda Chi Alpha........

I believe that Greeks are making a huge mistake. One day, someone is going to make massive amounts of paper and electronic copies and distribute them worldwide (electronically) and locally (paper), if they keep this crybaby crap.

reply to post by GLeamer


Some people have too much time on their hands

reply to post by SimonGray


Is their anyway i can retrieve the rituals you had? My email address is [email protected],

HAHA yeah i live in the middle of about 20 fraternities here at UT and trust me. They uphold their secrets just enough to get laid. They spill all the secrets to girls. Any girl who asks they spill the beans so they can sound cool. Plus i think fraternities are pretty much useless at this point. Nearly every member of a fraternity i currently know joined for two reason.

1) To get laid because they lack the social skills to do it on their own with intelligent deserving girls.

2) So they can go to parties because all the parties do not allow guys to come but will allow every girl to walk in freely. Which really is just another build on to the first reason,

Since they monopolize on the campus party scene and destroy outside social life it is a major draw.

I rushed for a major (most distinguished) fraternity and dropped because it was a waste of time. I have more important things in my life than to go around playing pretend scull and bones and having some jack @ss power ridden losers boss me around pretending there better than me when they are someone i wouldn't even consider hiring as my employee for my own company. its like going to a cute haloween party, or maybe one step up from that little rascals "i hate girls club" we all had while kids. At least with that they were real friends. Its just corny.



[edit on 27-10-2008 by ghostlandseller]