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Originally posted by mako0956
...in your pathetic attempt, to illustrate why the death penalty is cruel and unusual.
Originally posted by Durden
You're really giving the reinstatement of capital punishment way too much credit. Is it your opinion that capital punishment is effective as a deterrent for theft, burglary, robbery etc. as well?
The fact that the state of New York hasn't executed a single individual since 1976 subsequently contradicts your analysis. And to use your own words:
Essentially, this is a question about the moral ethics of a society and its government as well as the negative implications of using a punishment that's (quoting Howard Simon, Executive Director of the ACLU of Florida) inconsistent with the fundamental values of the democratic system;
To those arguing that the death penalty is acceptable, but the suffering caused by waiting on death row isn't (or the costs caused by it, for that matter). Well, there's just no way there could be one without the other. Unless you're going to abandon the crucial safeguards and constituional rights of suspects in favor of a speedier conviction/execution with the obvious risk of executing an even larger number of innocents.
IMO the death penalty violates human rights and is in fact, cruel and unusual.
Originally posted by mako0956
Durden has refered to my opinion repeatedly as ridiculous, ignorant and what have you.
Please make an effort and provide us with something at least resembling evidence of the soundness behind this IMO ridiculous reasoning of yours.
If you choose to be a non death penalty supporter, that's your right, just as it is my right to support it.
Finally, something we actually agree on. I would however like to add one thing; make sure your opinion is not based on ignorance.
Originally posted by FredT
Honest guys he says he feels okay now
By Jim Sanders -- Bee Capitol Bureau Published 2:15 am PDT Wednesday, August 25, 2004
(From - www.sacbee.com... )
Legislation proposing a massive shift in California's prison system to stress rehabilitation services for even the most hard-core prisoners was approved Tuesday by the Assembly.
Taken from www.iss.co.za...
Respondents were asked what they thought should be the most important goal of prison in respect of convicted offenders.
Most thought rehabilitation (59%), followed by punishment (26%), and the removal of criminals from society (14%). Rural respondents were significantly more likely to say that prison�s most important goal should be rehabilitation (75%), followed by urban (62%) and small town (51%) respondents.
Originally posted by nathraq
Let the families of the victims decide how the perp is punished. That will make for some creative punishments!
Originally posted by mako0956
Lethal injectioon is too good. Take him out back and beat him with a shovel for that matter
Originally posted by FredT
But the bible is kind of a guide book of Gods teachings told in narritive forme no?
Originally posted by FredT
The anti- group always seems to lose sight of the fact that the murderer never cared about the rights of the victem or what was right or wrong.
Originally posted by mako0956
we should heed the words of Marquette University Professor John McAdams, who concludes, "If we execute murderers and there is in fact no deterrent effect, we have killed a bunch of murderers. If we fail to execute murderers, and doing so would in fact have deterred other murders, we have allowed the killing of a bunch of innocent victims. I would much rather risk the former. This, to me, is not a tough call."
Originally posted by mako0956
Apparrently you have not been the victim of a violent crime nor have been in the presence of someone who has, your opinion would be dramatically different.
You seem to be of the opinion that everyone can be rehabilitated. They can't. These people are predators and are extremely dangerous to society.
(Bag up a few murder victims and let me see how your opinion changes).
Originally posted by FredT
How does it do more harm?
Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
We do not kill a rabid dog who bit a child because we want revenge. We do not kill this dangerous dog because we think it will stop other dogs from attacking children. We put these dogs down because they are a danger to society.
Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Civilization was BUILT on the death penalty, you seem to not get this fact.
Thje very first code of laws, the Code of Hammaraubi, stated clearly the death penalty was crucial to society.
Eye for an Eye, and a Life for a Life.
So, your question, does the death penalty belong in a civilized society is clearly answered: YES. Civilization was built upon it, and every civilization since the very first has had the death penalty.
Originally posted by FredT
Originally posted by Fitzpatrick
I used to believe in the death penalty but i do not anymore.
I dont think you should take away anyones life, if you can help it.
But what about the life of the victem that was taken?
Originally posted by Amuk
Would you want the man who raped and tortured your 5 yearold to death to spend 6 years behind bars and be released to do it again?
That IS what happens without the death penality
Originally posted by TACHYON
Now let me ask you anti death penalty people. Would you want these "rehabilitated" murderers living next to you?
rehabilitated
adj : (of persons) restored to health or useful life; "rehabilitated prisoners"
Definition
rehabilitate verb [T]
to return someone or something to a good or healthy condition, state or way of living:
The prison service should try to rehabilitate prisoners so that they can lead normal lives when they leave prison.
Originally posted by psychosgirl
there are valid arguments for both pro and anti-capital punishment. but when it comes down to it, capital punishment already has a place in our society and i, for one, don't see that changing any time soon.
Originally posted by Durden
You're really giving the reinstatement of capital punishment way too much credit. Is it your opinion that capital punishment is effective as a deterrent for theft, burglary, robbery etc. as well?
Originally posted by FredT
Never quite said that did I? I was not talking about theft, rape etc. Please note: i did not include those statistics. Nor is capital punishment applicable to those crimes.
Originally posted by Durden
The fact that the state of New York hasn't executed a single individual since 1976 subsequently contradicts your analysis.
Given the absurd length of appeals, its not surprising. However, in 2004 a liberal NY appeals court did rule the Death penalty Unconstitutional. That also may have delayed things as well. New York currently has 4 inmates on death row.
How is capital punishment inconsistent with the demorcratic system.
If it is indeed such an afront to democracy everywhere, why do most states have it? Why havent the voters risen up and voted out capital punishment?
Increased cost are inmaterial to having justice be done. As far as the emotional anguish sufferered by those awaiting execution of sentance: Do you really expect me to shed a tear because they have to sit an lament thier fate? Maybe you should not have killed someone eh? As far as I and most ovoters are concerned the extra cost is worth it.
The death penalty does not violate human rights. Once that individual chose to kill another human with special circumstances they forfieted ANY rights that protected them in this case.
Originally posted by mako0956
The topic of this thread is weither or not the death penalty is "cruel and unusual". The rights of the victim's haven't even come to the discussion unless I (and fredT) have stressed the point, then, it isn't discussed, it is merely sidestepped.
The anti death penalty supporters don't want to address it as it isn't in their scope of discussion. The only issue is the right's of the convicted and how it is wrong to murder the condemed.
Originally posted by mako0956
Sounds good. We'll call that program "Sponser a Serial Killer".
Perhaps the sponser can be elligble for a tax break by having them cook, make auto repairs or baby sit their kids?
Originally posted by Durden
And absurd length of appeals? Do you even realize (or care about) the possible consequences of speedier trials?
IMO, the imposition of capital punishment is inconsistent with the democratic system as it violates the constitutional ban against what is known as cruel and unusual punishment, as well as the guarantee of due process and equal protection of the laws. Furthermore, (which is the view of the ACLU as well) it represents an intolerable denial of civil liberties..
Fundamental individual rights, such as freedom of speech and religion, protected by law against unwarranted governmental or other interference.
If you're really curious as to public opinion, then you should be interested in the opinion on capital punishment in nations throughout the rest of the world.
You keep ignoring the vast preponderance of evidence showing a significantly higher rate of homicides in pro-death penalty states. To keep clinging to your version of "having justice be done", which IMO is a barbaric manner of punishing criminals, are you prepared to pay the price of additional innocent victims as well? That just doesn't make any sense.
That is your opinion. Though it goes against the views of The United Nations General Assembly, which furthermore in a formal resolutions have affirmed it to be desirable to - all over the world - "progressively restrict the number of offenses for which the death penalty might be imposed, with a view to the desirability of abolishing this punishment" (3).
(Some other nations known for their disregard for the human rights of their citizens are: Iraq, Iran, China, the former Soviet Union and South Africa.)
Originally posted by FredT
A I have pointed about I fully support mandatory DNA testing for murderers. At that point if guilt is proven and confirmed through DNA testing, what possible purpose could 10 years of appeals allow? I also oppose apeals for the "cruel and unusual" resons, or other procedural issues. If the convict has a real issue then its legitamate to allow for appeals. Beyond that its activist lawyers prolonging the enevitable.
Lethal injection has been ruled as NOT cruel and unusual.
...once you violate the laws of the state, most of the constituional protections simply do not apply. By your logic life in prison could be defined as cruel and unusual.
Lethal Injection seems much less cruel in that context.
More importantly, the Founding Fathers who adopted the Bill of Rights banning "cruel and unusual punishment" had no problem with implementing the death penalty.
Other nations are just that other nations. Simply because other countries in the world do not have the death penalty does not mean we should follow thier lead. Should we go with the flow and follow the rest of the world on every issue? NO. Americans have voted on the issue and have approved of capital punishment. What other countries do in not germane in this issue.
"Death penalty opponents love to assume that the principal purpose for capital punishment is deterrence, possibly realizing it is a perfect straw argument. Tangible proof of deterrence alone is not a valid reason for capital punishment (or any other form of punishment, for that matter), nor is it the main rationale employed by astute death penalty advocates. As Christian writer C.S. Lewis observes, "[deterrence] in itself, would be a very wicked thing to do. On the classical theory of punishment it was of course justified on the ground that the man deserved it. Why, in Heaven�s name, am I to be sacrificed to the good of society in this way? -- unless, of course, I deserve it." Inflicting a penalty merely to deter -- rather than to punish for deeds done -- is the very definition of cruelty. A purely deterrent penalty is one where a man is punished -- not for something that he did -- but for something someone else might do. Lewis explained the logical end of this argument: "If deterrence is all that matters, the execution of an innocent man, provided the public think him guilty, would be fully justified."
Men should be punished for their own crimes and not merely to deter others.
...the death penalty undoubtedly does deter in some cases. For starters, those executed will no longer be around to commit any more crimes.
Oh No the UN!!!! Should I recant? I think not!
Originally posted by maco0956
Just out of curiousity, what is your country of origin, or are you a citizen of?
Originally posted by Intelearthling
One thing though, why put them away for life? Tax payers shouldn't have to pay for them to continue living when they've not let another human continue living.