Death Penalty (effective Punishment or Cruel and Unusual)?

Then the issue is one of the US having the highest amount of incarcerations.

This is in part due to the backlog of the court system.

I would venture to estimate 85% of Detention Centers are holding people based on a Probation Violation at any given time. Probation doesn't always offer a solution.

The other 15% are waiting for a Superior Court date. I have personally witnessed a person sitting in jail over 5 months waiting for a court date. The subject was arrested for an inch long roach/marijuanna cigarette. No priors.

This is at the expense of the tax payer.

The system is not prepared for a rise in the projected crime rate when it can't handle what's already in the system.

The incarceration issue is at the other end of the spectrum from the Death Penalty issue.

Where do you suggest they put these violent offenders? They still escape out of maximum security facilities and committ crimes within their housing facility. The taxpayers still pay their room and board.

They are a danger to society.

I wouldn't want some freako who kidnapped, raped and strangled some 3 year old living next door to me or my family. Would you?

Originally posted by mako0956
Then the issue is one of the US having the highest amount of incarcerations. This is in part due to the backlog of the court system.

The courts are to blame as well. I recently had jury dute. My opservations:

We had 1.5 hours for lunch each day
Jury selection took 2 days for a 1 day trial

Thaos are just a few of the p[roblems that are compounding the problem....

A while ago I posted a thread that got closed right away talking about the large amount of yung offenders (people under 18 at the time of the crime) who were put to death. Of all the known cases of this in the world the US was the worst, with more then half of the known cases, 19 of 36 since 1990. There were only about a dozen countries that executed children criminals.
The death penalty is one catagory that of the 'western nations' the US is alone in a long list of the evil nations they are fighting against. The canadian homicid rate has dropped 40 per cent since 1975, the year before the abolition of the death penalty .

web.amnesty.org...
web.amnesty.org...

In 2003 these countries were known to have carried out the death penalty. 1,146 people were known to have been executed. 84 per cent took place in in the top four nations: China, Iran, the USA and Viet Nam.

BANGLADESH,
BELARUS,
BOTSWANA,
CHAD,
CHINA, 726 known executions
CONGO (Democratic Republic),
CUBA,
EGYPT,
IRAN, 108 known executions
IRAQ,
JAPAN,
JORDAN,
KAZAKSTAN,
KOREA (NORTH),
MONGOLIA,
PAKISTAN,
SAUDI ARABIA,
SINGAPORE,
SOMALIA,
SUDAN,
TAIWAN,
THAILAND,
UGANDA,
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 65 known executions
UZBEKISTAN,
VIET NAM, 64 known executions
YEMEN,
ZIMBABWE

Of known cases the US isn't as bad as China or Iran...number 3?
Is it a 'better safe then sorry' attitude? I think it is clear that the death penalty is not the solution.

As far as the bible most of what was said in the old testament changed when Jesus came. What would Jesus' attitude of capital punishment be? He who is with out sin shall cast the first stone.

The new teatsment is way to warm and fuzzy for my taste. Who is to say which book is correct. Maybe to Koran, the Talmud, the book of Morman, Buddah? The biblical refences were a responce to a post about God and the death penalty.

In regard to "young" offenders. please don't get the impression that these are just kids that stole a car or something. These are kids that have committed horrific crimes. Texas by far is the most prolific executers of criminals: Lets take a look at thier stats:
Average age 39
Youngest age 24
Interesting to note that they have executed several brothers at one time.
www.tdcj.state.tx.us...

The bottom line is that the majority of the people support and like the death penalty. there is such a thing as "bad seed" offenders who will do nothing but kill again and simply have no hope of rehab. Some crimes are so heinous the perp need to be put down.

I was a medical doctor, once my colleague come to extract a prisoner's organ, he's a death penalty prisoner. That time, I dont think this is wrong, but now I regret...... GOD, forgive me....

Ok, this may seem harsh but its how i feel:

Oh yea, im most definantly pro death penalty...

ok heres how the death penalty should work:

However you killed someone(s), thats how you should be killed. If you stab someone 18 times in the chest, then you need to be stabed 18 times in the chest...harsh i know, but think of the harshness of the victims, who is looking out for thier "humanity"? Late-

~Boo Baa

The Supreme Court suspended the use of the Death Penalty from 1968 until 1976. Executions resumed in 1977.


In Furman vs Georgia, 1972 the Supreme Court ruled the Death Penalty, as administered, constitued cruel and unusual punishment. The decision invalidated the death penalty laws of 39 states and the District of Columbia.

Although the majority of justices objected to the way the death penalty was applied, they couldn't agree on the reasons it was unconstitutional.

In 1976, new laws were brought before the Supreme Court in Gregg vs Georgia. The court upheld the laws that required the sentencing judges/jury to take into account the specific aggravating and mitagating factors in deciding which convicted murderers should be sentenced to death.

As a result of this case, states created a "bifurcated proceeding". This is a two part process which allows a trial to determine guilt or innocence with a separate trial for the penalty phase with the focus on the punishment.


**Now back to your post:

13 states do not specify a minimum age for capital punishment.

In the case of Thompson vs Oaklahoma (1988) the court determined a person, aged 15 years old, at the time of the crime, not be executed.

In the cases of Sanford vs Kentucky (1989) and Wilkins vs Missouri (1989),
the court upheld decisions to execute those 16 and 17 years of age at the time of their crimes.

This set the precident to execute those, the minimum of 16 years of age.

There are currently 41 males on death row who were under the age of 18 years when their crimes were committed. 3,000 adults awaiting execution in 35 or the 39 states. 2/3 of them are in the Southern states: Texas, Georgia, Alabama and Florida.

On comparing crime of the US vs other countries, James Lynch did a study:

On comparing crime rates in the US vs Australia, Canada, England and Wales, West Germany, France, The Netherlands, Sweden and Switzerland (Lynch 1995:11). Both police and victim data showed the homicide rate in the United States as being more than twice than that of Canada.

The same was generally true for robbery, more than twice the amount.

The same victim survey showed that for other violent crimes, assualt and robbery, rates of victimization was lower for Americans than for Canadians, Australians and Spainards (Donzger, 1996:10).

Data for burglary and motor vehicle theft show a 40% higher rate in Australia, 12% higher rate in Canada, 30% higher rate in England and Wales than the United States.

The risk of lethal violence is much higher in the United States than in other industrial democracies. However, the risk of minor violence is not greater than in other common law countries. In contrast, the United States has lower serious property crime than many countries.


The UCR (Uniform Crime Reports) are incomplete as these reports cover only 29 types of offenses which are reported to the police and the police respond to. If they havent been reported, or the police report isn't completed, it doesn't get on this list. 16,000 agencies at local, state and federal levels participate in tabulating these stats.

United States Executions by Year:


YEAR 1976 1977 1978 1979
Executions 0 1 0 2


YEAR 1980 1981 1982 1983 1984 1985 1986 1987 1988 1989
Executions 0 1 2 5 21 18 18 25 11 16


YEAR 1990 1991 1992 1993 1994 1995 1996 1997 1998 1999
Executions 23 14 31 38 31 56 45 74 68 98


YEAR 2000 2001 2002 2003
Executions 85 66 71 58

Source: www.prodeathpenalty.com...



[edit on 13-7-2004 by mako0956]

Originally posted by mako0956
The danger is in allowing these violent perp's on loose so they can victimize again.

Again, here you've already decided these individuals can't be treated. I'm not saying we should release dangerous individuals. I'm saying we should offer them proper treatment.

Originally posted by mako0956
It's easy to be on the outside looking in- however, I'm in Law Enforcement and seeing the victims everyday- people who didn't deserve to be stalked, strangled to death with an extension cord, raped post mortum, and cut up by some POS who just got out of prison for committing a felony with a firearm a month prior. DNA a match.

These are the one's I'm talking about. Violent Criminals. Sitting on death row for 11.5 years is a piece of cake compared to what this woman had to endure in the last few hours of her life. Why should her attacker be allowed any freedoms?

He forfieted that right. Lethal injectioon is too good. Take him out back and beat him with a shovel for that matter.

It seams you're really not talking about punishment at all. This sounds more like vengeance to me. Now don't get me wrong. I don't think these offenders should just walk free, but beating them with a shovel? That's a really troubling remark coming from someone in Law Enforcement.

Originally posted by mako0956
(Do you honestly think someone who committs a rape post-mortum can be rehabilitated?)

Yes, I honestly do. I have to.

Criminal sanctions in the United States have four goals:

1: Retribution: Focuses on the harmful act of the offender. Deserved punishment, offender's must "pay their debts".

2: Deterence: 2 types= general and special. In general deterence, this is used to impress upon the general public if they committ a crime, they will be caught, prosecuted and given a specific punishment. In special deterence this type of punishment is used by the courts to deter the offender from repeating the offense.

3: Incapacitation: Focuses on the potential future acts of the offender. Any sentence which restricts the offender and are future oriented. An offender is placed in a secure facility and prevented from inflicting additional harm to society for the duration of their sentence. Capital punishment is the ultimate method of incapacitation.

4: Rehabilitation: The goal is restoring a convicted offender to a constructive place in society by vocational or educational training or therapy. Here, offenders are treated, not punished, and they will return to society when "cured". The focus is on the offender.


**In response to your post:

It's getting a little tiring explaining to you the differences between those who committ violent crimes and merit the death penalty vs those who do not. Apparrently you have not been the victim of a violent crime nor have been in the presence of someone who has, your opinion would be dramatically different.

You seem to be of the opinion that everyone can be rehabilitated. They can't. These people are predators and are extremely dangerous to society.
(Bag up a few murder victims and let me see how your opinion changes).

Furthermore, my personal opinion of beating someone with a shovel does not reflect my professional actions as an officer. I resent your ignorance on the subject, as you are not adding anything intelligent to the thread and your posts are specifically directed at me, not the discussion. I will not answer any more of your posts.

mako






[edit on 13-7-2004 by mako0956]

Originally posted by mako0956
Apparrently you have not been the victim of a violent crime nor have been in the presence of someone who has, your opinion would be dramatically different.

And you know this - how? Are you saying anyone opposing the death penalty is of that opinion because they haven't been a victim of a violent crime? That's nothing but an ignorant assumption and a narrow-minded view on people in general.

You seem to be of the opinion that everyone can be rehabilitated. They can't. These people are predators and are extremely dangerous to society.

Again I fail to see how you can be so absolutly sure of these individuals not being susceptible to proper treatment.

I resent your ignorance on the subject, as you are not adding anything intelligent to the thread and your posts are specifically directed at me, not the discussion.

Where is this hostility coming from? I am not your enemy, I simply don't agree with you. And I'm sorry that you think I have an agenda towards your person. I absolutly don't. Though I simply couldn't ignore your shovel-remark.

I will not answer any more of your posts.

Touch�.

[edit on 13-7-2004 by Durden]

I still think that death is too good for them. They should be contained and forced to face up to what they have done.

Well, i'm convinced. I guess this must be one more thing that Europe and Most of the countries in the America's are wrong about. Looking at the list I provided it appears that mostly all of the countries actively useing the death penalty are in Africa, Middle East, and South East Asia. Then there is Cuba and the USA. Maybe the rest of the world should rejoin this list. While we are at it we might as well make torture legal again, got to do what it takes to let justice prevail.
I personaly disagree with capital punishment, but agree with the state's (any government) right to have it. Just as I agree with a state's right to chop of your hands after due process if you steal (You knew it would happen if you got caught) they should have the right. Then this raises the question why is it so horrible to execute someone who is an enemy of the state i.e. Iraq (you knew if you disagreed with the state you would die).

Originally posted by superpyz
I was a medical doctor, once my colleague come to extract a prisoner's organ, he's a death penalty prisoner. That time, I dont think this is wrong, but now I regret...... GOD, forgive me....

Actually that is common practice in China. Did you reall yhave an option? If you protested enough, that may have been you down the road.....

Originally posted by Durden
Again I fail to see how you can be so absolutly sure of these individuals not being susceptible to proper treatment.

What proper trreatment would you perscribe for a mass murderer? I mean how would you feel if one was rehabed and placed next door. Sitting on his porch were you live, were your children play etc. How well would YOU sleep next to the triple murderer just out on parole. Honest guys he says he feels okay now.

Your post made me think on one word: Billy Bob Thornton's "Slingblade".

[edit on 14-7-2004 by mako0956]

Originally posted by mako0956
Your post made me think on one word: Billy Ray Thornton's "Slingblade".

I did not think about that but right on We are going through this right now in California. With the megans law computers up, one can track were sex offenders are house, and alot of communities are driving them out. San Jose is the most progressive PD right now. You can go on thier web site and find out not only the perps address, but a picture and thier crime.... Its nice to know who or what your neighbors are

Originally posted by FredT
What proper trreatment would you perscribe for a mass murderer? I mean how would you feel if one was rehabed and placed next door. Sitting on his porch were you live, were your children play etc. How well would YOU sleep next to the triple murderer just out on parole. Honest guys he says he feels okay now.

Let me just take a wild guess and say I don't think you were seriously looking for an answer to that question. But if you were, then all I can tell you is that there is no one-treatment-fits-all here. I'm sure you understand that too. Consequently, I really couldn't give you a meaningful answer to this, since proper psychological treatment is handled on an individual level. Also there are people a lot better fitted to answer questions on actual medical treatments than I am.

Trust me, I don't think this is simple. Not at all. However I am certain that a Country's Government has a huge responsibility in setting the example to its citizens. And I don't think vengeance through cold blooded murder should have a place here.

Originally posted by Durden
Let me just take a wild guess and say I don't think you were seriously looking for an answer to that question. But if you were, then all I can tell you is that there is no one-treatment-fits-all here. I'm sure you understand that too. Consequently, I really couldn't give you a meaningful answer to this, since proper psychological treatment is handled on an individual level. Also there are people a lot better fitted to answer questions on actual medical treatments than I am.

The record of people recieveng psychological treatment is mixed at best. How can you be sure that treatment was effective. From a therapy standpoint yes it has to be tailored to the individual, even if money was no object, how could we ever be sure the individual was treated. You are also making an assumption that these are individuals that want treatment as well. How many do not? How many are simply sociopaths for the lack of a better word and the deaths simply do not bother them. How do rehab a Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Ted Bundy, Larry Singleton, et al? No amount of good thoughts and finding our happy place was ever going to convince me that these people are safe.

After a couple of hands were removed for stealing and for rapists, another choice appendage were removed....the crimes would be far less. IMHO criminals are treated way too good. Prison is supposed to hard, it's a punishment, not a place for cable TV, hot tubs, and exercise rooms. Criminals have no fear of prison.....nothing to make them think twice about doing the crime, or doing it again. As a survivor of severe childhood sexual abuse, rapist should be put away for life, or put to death. MHO