Miracles: Hard Evidence that the Christian God is Real

Originally posted by lektrofellon
But seriously,it wouldn't surprise me if it turned out the pastor abducted the girl in the first place!

edit on 20/1/11 by lektrofellon because: (no reason given)

Actually the police did a thorough inquiry of the pastor along those lines, since his methods were obviously nonstandard. He passed just fine. Moreover the girl would be an eyewitness to such a kidnapping and she has said nothing along those lines. So I think that the kidnapping conclusion is a bit of a reach.

Unfortunately many of you are operating under a bias against God that prevents you from seeing the obvious here. You have no adequate explanation for how the pastor was led directly to the girl, but many of you have no problem impugning God's character.

Good luck with that. Let's see how that flies on judgment day.

reply to post by SevenThunders


I gave you an explanation that doesn't involve a deity. You have yet to address it.

Please demonstrate something that is actually miraculous. Violations of the laws of physics are a good place. Another good sort would be something that we can actually test and verify as a miracle.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Why would a violation of the law of physics demonstrate the existence of a miracle?

A violation of physical laws merely shows that there are exceptions to the universal application of these laws, and we do not yet understand why and how these exceptions operate.

In order to "test and verify" a miracle, it needs to be able to be replicated in a controlled environment, and even if the results are there, it still does not demonstrate a miracle of God, for the same reasons stated above.

I am not saying that miracles do not happen, as I am a theist, but I think at most a miracle is a subjective perception imbued with special significance for the observer.

Originally posted by AllIsOne
reply to post by SevenThunders

 

I gave you an explanation that doesn't involve a deity. You have yet to address it.

And I just demonstrated how that explanation is untenable. You have yet to address the need for God in your life.

reply to post by SevenThunders


Did you get the posts mixed up? Please explain where you addressed my post?

Originally posted by AllIsOne
reply to post by SevenThunders

 

Did you get the posts mixed up? Please explain where you addressed my post?

Oh yes I did mix it up. Sorry AllsOne.

If remote viewing were possible (and it likely is), then it would provide a mechanism for such a rescue. However it is still not consistent with the pastor's testimony, which simply was that God told him which steps to take and which direction to move as he went through the swamp.

I've read at least one book covering the remote viewing subject and I have to say it appears to be highly occultic. I think the way it is practiced by many of these folks, the source of their visions are from fallen angels. While we'd like to believe that we have some inherent ESP power, I think most of these sorts of supernatural manifestations have to be mediated by some higher, interdimensional power, ie God or angels.

reply to post by SevenThunders

Good luck with that. Let's see how that flies on judgment day.

Thanks for the warning there buddy,but i think ill take my chances and live my life exactly how i want to live my life,rather than follow some rules from a bunch of fairytales.

I fear god no more than i fear the giant from jack and the beanstalk! Peace.

Since he seems to have ignored me, I'll ask again: If her location was so hard to get to, how did an 11 year old girl even get there in the first place? Something seems off about the whole thing.





Oh right, "God did it"

reply to post by warbird03


She got there by bushwacking through snake infested swamp water for nearly 5 days. So what took Nadia 5 days, took King 2 hours to traverse once he was given the precise instructions from God. Makes sense to me. What won't make sense to the unbelievers is how the pastor could have received this information?

I personally believe that his God was guiding him.

Originally posted by SevenThunders
reply to post by warbird03

 

She got there by bushwacking through snake infested swamp water for nearly 5 days. So what took Nadia 5 days, took King 2 hours to traverse once he was given the precise instructions from God. Makes sense to me. What won't make sense to the unbelievers is how the pastor could have received this information?

I personally believe that his God was guiding him.

Actually, I'm going to say you're wrong here. Nowhere in that video did it say it took her 5 days to get there, it said she was missing for 5 days. There's a difference. She wasn't necessarily in that spot for 5 days. She may even have actually been in the original search area but wasn't found because she was moving around.

I'll agree that this is a great story, but it offers no proof of God's existence at all. There's just too many holes to be any kind of proof.

Edit: I'm not just trying to disprove everything you say, but you can't just come to a board like this and claim something like this is proof with very little substance except some guy who says God told him where she was and just expect us to say "ok, we're sorry for ever doubting christianity"

reply to post by SevenThunders


Thank you for your answer

reply to post by warbird03


You are splitting hairs here. My point is quite simple. Over a period of 4 and 1/2 days she managed to wander quite deeply into the swamp. By her own testimony she was moving quite a bit trying to find her way out. Thus she had more time to work her way into the thick brush than any of the searchers did. That explains how she got in so deep. I'm certain, as you say, that she wasn't walking that entire time, but it was still a lot more walking than any individual searchers were doing.

Why is it that arguing with any die-hard christian feels like beating your head against a wall?

You're still ignoring the main point that I've been trying to make. You claim that this is definitive proof that God exists when in reality the "proof" is one man saying God guided him. Let's continue on with that logic, shall we? Schizophrenia and other mental illness can cause people to hear voices too, sometimes with very violent results. Now, I'm not saying this man is mentally ill. I am in no way qualified to make such a statement. However, many people who hear disembodied voices do have some kind of illness, and I'm pretty sure there's been plenty of them who have claimed to hear the voice of God.

reply to post by mysticnoon

Originally posted by mysticnoon

Please demonstrate something that is actually miraculous. Violations of the laws of physics are a good place. Another good sort would be something that we can actually test and verify as a miracle.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

 

Why would a violation of the law of physics demonstrate the existence of a miracle?

I didn't say it would definitively do so, but it would incline the observer towards thinking that it would be a miracle. I was talking about a starting point, not an end point.

A violation of physical laws merely shows that there are exceptions to the universal application of these laws, and we do not yet understand why and how these exceptions operate.

...except that there are no exceptions that we know of.

In order to "test and verify" a miracle, it needs to be able to be replicated in a controlled environment, and even if the results are there, it still does not demonstrate a miracle of God, for the same reasons stated above.

True, but it does provide a possibility. Also, you could control for that...I mean, if you pray to Vishnu and something happens yet nothing happens when you pray to Freya...well, it might indicate something significant.

I am not saying that miracles do not happen, as I am a theist, but I think at most a miracle is a subjective perception imbued with special significance for the observer.

I'll take it a step further, I'd say miracles seem to be purely confirmation bias. I've yet to see anyone demonstrate a miracle.

reply to post by SevenThunders


You have yet to demonstrate anyone's need for or the existence of this "God"...hell, you've not even defined your terms. What is this being you speak of?

Seven, I am an agnostic, so it wouldn't ruin my day if it turned out there was a god. But this case reminds of one that I had an online conversation about a few years ago with a fellow who does remote viewing. Now, I don't whether there's such a thing as RV. Then again, I don't know if there's such a thing as a god, either.

So, basically, his story was that he remotely "participated" in the 2001 rescue of Haley Zega (searchable), a 6 year-old girl who got lost in the Ozarks wilderness. A woman "spirit friend" of his agreed to help out, and according to him, led the girl through bad terrain to a river, with its life-sustaining water and open country where she would be conspicuous. The little girl made it to the river, where she was rescued, safe and sound. More about who found her in a moment.

The lost girl said that she had encountered some sort of imaginary friend, another little girl, who gave her guidance, possibly the guidance to head for the river. The person I was talking with thought that Haley's "little girl" was his spirit woman, who was short. An alternative explanation of the little girls' imaginary friend was offered by the media. Some of them conjectured that Haley was visited by the ghost of a young girl who had died in the area some years before.

Now, about Haley's rescuers. Like your preacher, they set out on their own initiative, looking where the official search parties were not looking. The official searchers for Haley didn't think a 6 year-old could make it to the river, so they weren't looking there. The two searchers who found her thought that it was such a good place for her to go, that it was worth checking out. Obviously, they were right.

So, if this sort of thing happens without anybody saying somebody's god did it, then why would I credit the Florida miracle to the preacher's God, and not credit the Ozarks rescue to my correspondent's short spirit woman? Or maybe it was the ghost of that other girl who died, for all I know. Or maybe Haley had good survival intution, and her rescuers correctly bet on her having that intuition, something which they, too, had.

If the last, then it is the most natural thing in the world. And if not, we have two levels of competing supernatural theory, remote viewing with spirit helpers and earthbound ghosts, to work through before we reach "God did it."

I respect your faith. If this incident supports and deepens your faith, then that's great. But this incident isn't proof of anything, unless Haley Zega's rescue is equally proof that some guy made a deal with a short spirit woman, or a park in the Ozarks is haunted by a friendly ghost.

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reply to post by SevenThunders


Hey seven this was a great fine for christ. You should add me on as your friend god bless

reply to post by eight bits


Your point is quite sound. I believe it was their 'god' who helped them.

Just remember from the perspective of a Christian worldview, there are many spiritual powers in the universe. Some of them will deign to help mortals if it serves their purposes. Not many of them are good, but that is another discussion entirely.

reply to post by warbird03


Do you believe in radio waves? You can't see them, but you've seen their effect and have bought into the current explanation for their existence. Why is that? You don't have any real 'proof' that they exist do you? All you have is a theory that seems to fit the facts.

In the same way we have an unexplained phenomenon for which there is a conventional explanation that fits the facts. Namely that God can and will intervene dramatically in a persons life.

Originally posted by SevenThunders
reply to post by warbird03

 

Do you believe in radio waves? You can't see them, but you've seen their effect and have bought into the current explanation for their existence. Why is that? You don't have any real 'proof' that they exist do you? All you have is a theory that seems to fit the facts.

In the same way we have an unexplained phenomenon for which there is a conventional explanation that fits the facts. Namely that God can and will intervene dramatically in a persons life.

Radio waves are part of the same spectrum that includes infrared, ultraviolet, x-ray, gamma ray, and even the visible specturm of light. The difference between these and your God is that these are reproducible, their effects are easily observable in many cases, and are completely backed up with facts and proof. The same cannot be said with the Christian god.

Good game, sir, but try again.

reply to post by lordtyp0

Yes, it seems to be OK for a Christian to lie, as long as the message included Gods grace and will. Like here, for instance:

Mark 11:24:
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

God says, "believe that you have received it, and it will be yours,"

According to this, if I ask God for a beautiful Asian woman to appear before me naked, she will appear. If I ask for a brand new home, it should appear, ready to move into. Doesn't compute, does it?