Chinese Nukes Aimed at US Cities

Originally posted by mad scientist
As for China putting someone in space their would be a dozen other countries which could easily do it, if they wanted to waste taxpayers dollars for false pride. My watch has more computer than all the Apollo missions put together.

If it is so easy, why US is crashing "Genesis" lately? what about Columbia? US lead is eroding.

Originally posted by zcheng

Originally posted by mad scientist
As for China putting someone in space their would be a dozen other countries which could easily do it, if they wanted to waste taxpayers dollars for false pride. My watch has more computer than all the Apollo missions put together.

If it is so easy, why US is crashing "Genesis" lately? what about Columbia? US lead is eroding.

Maybe you'll have room to talk about space programs when China makes more than bottle rockets.

Originally posted by zcheng

Originally posted by mad scientist
As for China putting someone in space their would be a dozen other countries which could easily do it, if they wanted to waste taxpayers dollars for false pride. My watch has more computer than all the Apollo missions put together.

If it is so easy, why US is crashing "Genesis" lately? what about Columbia? US lead is eroding.

What about them ? Genisis was a pioneering effort, no one knows for sure what 3 years in space would do to it. Space shuttle was just ba lack of funding.

Hang on. what about all the successful MARS missions, the VOYAGER missions adn I do believe the US has the only space to have left the solar system PIONEER 10.

Just who is eroding the US lead, I can't think of any candidates and China would rank last of all the space faring nations.

[edit on 9-9-2004 by mad scientist]

Originally posted by mad scientist
Just who is eroding the US lead, I can't think of any candidates and China would rank last of all the space faring nations.

The fact of the matter is: China is catching up fast.

From CNN, Aaron said that "Genesis is first time to retrieve material from outspace since 1973". This added my suspicion of US landing in Moon. How can it be so difficult for US to retrieve something after 31 years?

I doubt whether US did have the capability to send human to the moon.

If Human ever step on Moon again (assuming that US did that in 1970's), that nation will be China.

I cant believe what I have just read, such statements as "they may nuke a few of our cities but they wont obliterate our country".

Apart from Nuclear winter, radiation sickness and the like, that we all know would be the result of a major Nuclear conflict - it has been said that Nukes neednt even hit your country for the world to be effectivly killed off by fallout and the resulting effects on the climate and animal/plant growth.

But even suggesting we survive the initial blasts, and the fallout what about the state of life on earth ? America is more dependant than any country on the world on technology and computer records, mainly for finance but also personal indentity details. Any strike would surely be aiamed at centres holding such info, and EMPs would destroy the rest leaving a country crippled and subject to total public uprising.

After all, how many of you average chinese villager or Russian farmer on the steppe needs to use the ATM every day, visits the supermarket with its electronic doors, barcode scanner and card readers. How many of them live in high rises with electronically controlled lifts, in fact how many of them rely on Electricty ?

As for money, what you dont have on you, you wont have as bank record die with the mainframes they are stored on, a reversion to barter would have to be installed as that woul be the only currency worth anything.

I guess what I am trying to say is no-one wins, the threat keeps peoples fingers off buttons (thank whoever may be up there), it doesn.t matter how accurate or how many missiles your country may have, if one flies its too many and i for one am happy people do seem to be finally realising that.

Originally posted by zcheng

Originally posted by mad scientist
Just who is eroding the US lead, I can't think of any candidates and China would rank last of all the space faring nations.

The fact of the matter is: China is catching up fast.

From CNN, Aaron said that "Genesis is first time to retrieve material from outspace since 1973". This added my suspicion of US landing in Moon. How can it be so difficult for US to retrieve something after 31 years?

I doubt whether US did have the capability to send human to the moon.

If Human ever step on Moon again (assuming that US did that in 1970's), that nation will be China.

I normally don't like to be personal, but you have to be one of the biggest idiots I have ever come across. The moon missions were finished by 1973, there are plenty of threads disputing the conspiracy thet man never ent to the moon - DO A SEARCH - DENY IGNORANCE. When was it, a couple of years ago when one of your long march rockets went haywire and blew up a village of 4000 poeple, the very best of Chinese technology

China isn't catching up fast at all where do you get all this, where are these great Chinese achievements ?

Originally posted by mad scientist

Well Vietnam wasn't a war it was a police action leaving the north off limits to soldiers. It's commonly known the army fought with both hands tied behind its back - politicians

Goodness, is that the same excuse you use every time? If we had won the Vietnam War, you'd be screaming about how it was a war, fair in it's own right!

Maybe if the US tried to invade China, you may have a point, but anywhere else China would get its ass kicked. The Chinese have actually been down sizing their army, probably to redce targets

Do you realize the stupidity of the comment you just wrote? "Anywhere else?" What else can China fight in? It is not an offensive force, therefore, invasion, etc. is out of the question. Which leaves only one thing, defense. So OBVIOUSLY, China will fight only in the case of being invaded. Goodness, actually learn about the doctrine of their military before acting all "we can kick your ass!" about it.

As for China putting someone in space their would be a dozen other countries which could easily do it, if they wanted to waste taxpayers dollars for false pride. My watch has more computer than all the Apollo missions put together.

So what you're saying is America's space program was also for false pride? It's symbiosis here. If one nation putting a man into space was for false pride, then us putting Alan Shepherd into space for the first time was for false pride too. Maybe even the Apollo missions. And that last sentence was funny!

Do you ever run out of stupid things to say?

philstix,

The funniest thing? The Americans in this thread, like madscientist, want to be like China, while the Chinese on this thread want to be like America.

The American dudes, most of them, want the will and intestinal fortitude of the Chinese, while the Chinese want to be as modern and technologically advanced as the Americans.

So what you have are two nations wanting to be each other!

Originally posted by mad scientist
I normally don't like to be personal, but you have to be one of the biggest idiots I have ever come across. The moon missions were finished by 1973, there are plenty of threads disputing the conspiracy thet man never ent to the moon - DO A SEARCH - DENY IGNORANCE. When was it, a couple of years ago when one of your long march rockets went haywire and blew up a village of 4000 poeple, the very best of Chinese technology

China isn't catching up fast at all where do you get all this, where are these great Chinese achievements ?

Becoming Mad again, no cure for you ? Go and see a doctor, otherwise try a Traditional Chinese Medcine. Good luck.

Originally posted by mad scientist

Originally posted by goldenboy
Technology isn't everything. Look at the vietnam war. USA lost that war, ran home with it's tail behind its legs despite it's superior technology. Never underestimate the will of the people who are determined to fight.

Look at the Korean war. Again, low tech North Koreans and Chinese fought the US to a stand still.

Well Vietnam wasn't a war it was a police action leaving the north off limits to soldiers. It's commonly known the army fought with both hands tied behind its back - politicians

As for Korea it cost the Chinese over 1 million dead to 'hold' the UN. It's a war which could have been won if the UN had been willing to extend the theater of operations north of the Yalu. Obvioudly you know very little about these conflicts.

And you morons really think that China, who is not lo-tech but middle-tech, with its vast armies and resources, could EVER be defeated by the US?

I don't think so.

Maybe if the US tried to invade China, you may have a point, but anywhere else China would get its ass kicked. The Chinese have actually been down sizing their army, probably to redce targets

The only way US can defeat China is by nuking them. But China has it's own 2,500+ nukes, and their # of ICBMs, BECAUSE they are not silo based except for about 20 (DF-5) but are mobile (truck) are impossible to determine. Last year, China sold over 20 DF-5s to Saudi Arabia. That is just one year. Do you really think China only has 20 Df-5 to it's national defense? The DF31's are mobile ICBMs, and can go at least 8,000KM (probably 10,000), able to reach about 2/3s of the USA.

The DF41s (still in development) are also mobile ICBMs but can go 12,000+ (ie anywhere in the world). All of these ICBMs are MIRVed, capable of multiple warheads.

One thing you guys have to realize is this.

China maybe behind the USA in conventional arms technology albeit they are rapidly catching up, but they are NOT behind the USA in ballistic missiles technology. They have a very successful satellite launching record, and they are the 3rd country to send a man to outer space.

So in conclusion, USA cannot defeat China in conventional warefare. Nor can the USA defeat China in nuclear war without it being destroyed also (MAD).

And, guess what you're wrong again. Most Chinese ICBM technology is roughly equivalent to late 1970's US technology. Ther CEP is only good for city busting, absolutely nothing else. As for their SLBM capapbility, it is absolutely crap, they still can't master what the US did in the 1960's.

How do you know the Dong Feng 41 has a range of 12000 miles and MIRV's, you must have direct access to their secrets

. Estimates don't count for sh*t.

As for China putting someone in space their would be a dozen other countries which could easily do it, if they wanted to waste taxpayers dollars for false pride. My watch has more computer than all the Apollo missions put together.

Wow, you sure are an idiot if you think the Vietnam war was anything but a full-scale war.

Don't try to minimize China's space achievements with ignorant statements like a dozen other countries could easily do it.

Name them. Come on. I'm waiting for you to name 12 countries other than the US, Russia, and China that can easily launch humans to space safely and back.

I'm waiting. I expect you to name 12. With references that support your opinion. Thank you.






[edit on 9-9-2004 by goldenboy]

[edit on 9-9-2004 by goldenboy]

Originally posted by goldenboy
Wow, you sure are an idiot if you think the Vietnam war was anything but a full-scale war.

The point of it is that the US did not allow it's self to invade the enemy, even though it had the undisputed ability to do so and win. Plus, saying we got our ass kicked is just plain wrong, if you look at the FACTS, the death count for the US was 50,000. The death count for the North was over a million. And that is without allowing ourselves to invade the enemy - all we could do was kill those soldiers that attacked the South. As for Korea, get a grip dude, the UN force won, the Chineese lost - end of story. Take a history course.

Don't try to minimize China's space achievements with ignorant statements like a dozen other countries could easily do it.

I agree that sending a man to space is a great achievement, but come on dude, the US did this 40 years ago. I'd say it will take a little bit more from China before I would say they are catching up. A start would be a few probes to other planets and sending a man to the moon.

Originally posted by American Mad Man
As for Korea, get a grip dude, the UN force won, the Chineese lost - end of story. Take a history course.

You are so funny !

Originally posted by American Mad Man
The point of it is that the US did not allow it's self to invade the enemy, even though it had the undisputed ability to do so and win. Plus, saying we got our ass kicked is just plain wrong, if you look at the FACTS, the death count for the US was 50,000. The death count for the North was over a million. And that is without allowing ourselves to invade the enemy - all we could do was kill those soldiers that attacked the South. As for Korea, get a grip dude, the UN force won, the Chineese lost - end of story. Take a history course.

Take a history course. That's your problem. Your history course doesn't tell what really happened. Robert S. MacNamara went to Vietnam in 1995 and was shocked to find out the Vietnamese were WILLING to lose a million men.

You need to open your eyes. A loss of a million people may be an @$$-kicking to you. But if they were willing to lose that many, that's hardly an @$$-kicking. They were almost expecting that. And their aim was never to minimize their own casualties. Not an @$$-kicking if you were willing to get that kind of result.

You my friend, got your own @$$ kicked by not understanding the enemy. So did America, unfortunately.

And it's quite obvious you have no idea what victory means.

[edit on 9-9-2004 by sweatmonicaIdo]

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo

Originally posted by American Mad Man
The point of it is that the US did not allow it's self to invade the enemy, even though it had the undisputed ability to do so and win. Plus, saying we got our ass kicked is just plain wrong, if you look at the FACTS, the death count for the US was 50,000. The death count for the North was over a million. And that is without allowing ourselves to invade the enemy - all we could do was kill those soldiers that attacked the South. As for Korea, get a grip dude, the UN force won, the Chineese lost - end of story. Take a history course.

Take a history course. That's your problem. Your history course doesn't tell what really happened. Robert S. MacNamara went to Vietnam in 1995 and was shocked to find out the Vietnamese were WILLING to lose a million men.

Of course they were, they had a dictator running their country who brainwashed them into believing a million deaths was not a defeat. I never said otherwise. Do you even read what I said? When I said take a history course, it was in reference to the Korean war, and how someone said that China kicked our ass - it had nothing to do with vietnam.

You need to open your eyes. A loss of a million people may be an @$$-kicking to you. But if they were willing to lose that many, that's hardly an @$$-kicking. They were almost expecting that. And their aim was never to minimize their own casualties. Not an @$$-kicking if you were willing to get that kind of result.

By your logic if you get in a fight with a much stronger guy, get your nose broken, get 2 black eyes, a broken jaw, and get all of your teeth punched out and the other guy breaks a finger punching you, you win because you were willing to get your ass kicked? Sorry, that is poor logic. The fact is the US dominated the North overall. The problem had nothing to do with our soldiers or equipment or their soldiers, and had everything to do with the fact that we were the only country stupid enough to not allow our own forces to go on the offensive.

You my friend, got your own @$$ kicked by not understanding the enemy. So did America, unfortunately.

And it's quite obvious you have no idea what victory means.

I got my ass kicked? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Your reaching now.

As far as knowing what victory means, I know full well what it means, and never claimed the US was victorious in 'nam. Again - pease read what I say instead of assuming you know what I said.

EDIT: Fixed quotes

[edit on 9-9-2004 by American Mad Man]

Originally posted by American Mad Man

Of course they were, they had a dictator running their country who brainwashed them into believing a million deaths was not a defeat. I never said otherwise. Do you even read what I said? When I said take a history course, it was in reference to the Korean war, and how someone said that China kicked our ass - it had nothing to do with vietnam.

Is "brainwash" a contingency word you use when you don't understand the enemy?

By your logic if you get in a fight with a much stronger guy, get your nose broken, get 2 black eyes, a broken jaw, and get all of your teeth punched out and the other guy breaks a finger punching you, you win because you were willing to get your ass kicked? Sorry, that is poor logic. The fact is the US dominated the North overall. The problem had nothing to do with our soldiers or equipment or their soldiers, and had everything to do with the fact that we were the only country stupid enough to not allow our own forces to go on the offensive.

You don't know what you're talking about and you still don't know what victory means. Let's say I get beat up real bad because I didn't give the guy 20 bucks. I may get beat up real bad, but as long as I don't give up the money, I've won. Do you understand now?

"Dominating" the enemy means nothing if you eventually don't get what you want. The other guy might be the crap outta me, but it does him no good if I never give him the $20, or he finds out I never had $20 bucks. So he basically loses, because he wasted his time for nothing and is possibly on the verge of getting his @$$ kicked himself, arrested, or even killed.

Your entire response shows you have no idea what victory is. To you, victory is kicking the other guy's @$$. Maybe to an extent, but using my example from earlier, the guy who beats me up wasn't trying to beat me up, he was triyng to get $20! If I just gave him the $20, he probably wouldn't have beat me up and he wins. Why? Because he got what he wanted! If he beats me up but never gets the $20, he's basically lost, because he wasted all his energy and didn't get what he wanted!

And I read what you wrote. Sorry, but a lot of stuff was in reference to your statement about the Korean War, which was wrong. America nor China got anything they wanted. That's why they call it a stalemate.

That's why you're the one who needs to learn history, not the rest of us.

Maybe going to war is good for you. Sometiems you have to fight a war to learn victory is not ensured by simply kicking somebody's @$$.

This has got to be one of the best threads availabe on the ATS discussion to date and I haven't been a member that long!

There is a lot of good reading going on here.

zcheng?

What makes you think that China has space capabilities superior to ours ( The United States of America, ours)? Man, you on dope or something? You sure do act like it. I'm not here to brag on our (The United States of America, our) achievements, but you Chinese have along ways to go to even start thinking that you could even come in third place behind us (The United States of America, us, that's right). Big deal you Chinese people have got nuclear capabilities, human space travel capabilities, the largest standing army in the world, a "new" fighter jet, a "new" submarine and the list goes on and on. What I'm saying is, SO WHAT? Here's something you haven't got and it is essential to the progressiveness of a society to maintain it's leadership in the world community. It's called FREEDOM, zcheng. May I say this again? It's called FREEDOM, zcheng. Or do you have any idea of what that is? We (The United States of America,we) Americans do, and that is why you Chinese will always be inferior, in every aspect of your oppresive society. So, I wouldn't brag so much about being a loser. LOSER!

sweatmonicaIdo?

Hey dude, You ever wonder why Monica doesn't sweat?

American Mad Man?

You look like you been holding the fort down by yourself (apologies to anyone else who's been defending America here, I'll need to read all the postings)? These people have lost their minds. Hell, we'll take'em all on! Great job you got going on here, though.

SO BRING IT ON, YOU ANTI-AMERICAN COMMIE LOVERS!

[edit on 9/9/04 by Intelearthling]

Originally posted by Intelearthling
zcheng?

What makes you think that China has space capabilities superior to ours ( The United States of America, ours)? Man, you on dope or something? You sure do act like it. I'm not here to brag on our (The United States of America, our) achievements, but you Chinese have along ways to go to even start thinking that you could even come on third place behind us (The United States of America, us, that's right). Big deal you Chinese people has got nuclear capabilities, human space travel capabilities, the largest standing army in the world, a "new" fighter jet, a "new" submarine and the list goes on and on. What I'm saying is SO WHAT? Here's something you haven't got and it is essential to the progrssiveness of a society maintain it's lead in the world community. It's FREEDOM zcheng. May I say this again, it's FREEDOM zcheng. Or do you have any idea of what that is? We (The United States of America,we) Americans do, and that is why you Chinese will always inferior, in every aspect of your oppresive soceity. So< I wouldn't brag so much about being a loser.

All I said was: China is catching up fast. I do not deny US leadship in space.

We Chinese people in China enjoy our life and our progress.

FREEDOM to listen to Fox crap? FREEDOM for you die in Iraq? What about patriot Act?

You enjoy American FREEDOM, we enjoy our freedom.

comment like "Chinese will always inferior, in every aspect of your oppresive soceity.", show what a despicable person you are.

Originally posted by zcheng
comment like "Chinese will always inferior, in every aspect of your oppresive soceity.", show what a despicable person you are.

I'll show you despicable. Go look in a mirror! Or have you got one?



[edit on 9/9/04 by Intelearthling]

Originally posted by American Mad Man

Originally posted by goldenboy
Wow, you sure are an idiot if you think the Vietnam war was anything but a full-scale war.

The point of it is that the US did not allow it's self to invade the enemy, even though it had the undisputed ability to do so and win. Plus, saying we got our ass kicked is just plain wrong, if you look at the FACTS, the death count for the US was 50,000. The death count for the North was over a million. And that is without allowing ourselves to invade the enemy - all we could do was kill those soldiers that attacked the South. As for Korea, get a grip dude, the UN force won, the Chineese lost - end of story. Take a history course.

Don't try to minimize China's space achievements with ignorant statements like a dozen other countries could easily do it.

I agree that sending a man to space is a great achievement, but come on dude, the US did this 40 years ago. I'd say it will take a little bit more from China before I would say they are catching up. A start would be a few probes to other planets and sending a man to the moon.

What makes you think China is incapable of sending probes to outer space? The same technology that launches a satellite is also used to launch probes. It's also the same technology that is used in ICBMs. And believe me, China is planning a trip to the Moon.

USA might've done this 40 years ago, but that in no way diminishes China's achievements. Japan who is one of the most technologically advanced nations on earth has had problems after problems with their space program. Their H2 rocket malfunctions, blows up, or their satellite fails to get into orbit. Same for European Union. Lately, USA has had some difficulty with their space program. Ironically, its the Chinese that have consistently launched satellite after satellite successfully. The same technology that launches satellites is the same that launches nuclear warheads. Remember that.

As for the Vietnam war, you can make all the excuses you want. USA lost that war. They were the aggressor, invading a country that did not threaten them and posed no danger. These aggressors had superior technology, yet they lost to a primitive country that refused to lose. Never discount the will of a nation.

Some here make outrageously arrogant claims to USA hegemony. They brag about it's technology and might, and are so pro-war that these morons blindly want to instigate a war all over the war as though it is a game, and forget that real war is bloody. I would like to see people like American Mad Man sign up for the next war so that they can learn the lessons of war, which is, don't go to war unless you have to.

The Vietnam war should've taught USA the lessons that war should never be a tool for politics. It's sad that despite tens of thousands of dead American soliders, politics, and ignorant Americans are bloodthirsty for more war.

Again, I wish to reiterate that a war with China is a no win war for either USA or China, and certainly the world. We should try to promote peaceful co-existence. The Chinese are not a warring country. Their culture is relatively a peaceful one. In the early 1400s, China was the most advanced sea faring nation on earth. Their largest ships were almost the size of aircraft carriers today, completely dwarfing spanish ships. They travelled extensively around the world, some believe they discovered Australia, and the Americas, and Chinese seafaring maps were used by the west later to discover America. But the Chinese did not go to loot, and steal. They went to learn, and trade peacefully. Why do Americans fear Chinese? we shouldn't fear them. We should recognize they are a competitor yes, but not necessarily an enemy.

Originally posted by Intelearthling

Originally posted by zcheng

Originally posted by Intelearthling
zcheng?

What makes you think that China has space capabilities superior to ours ( The United States of America, ours)? Man, you on dope or something? You sure do act like it. I'm not here to brag on our (The United States of America, our) achievements, but you Chinese have along ways to go to even start thinking that you could even come on third place behind us (The United States of America, us, that's right). Big deal you Chinese people has got nuclear capabilities, human space travel capabilities, the largest standing army in the world, a "new" fighter jet, a "new" submarine and the list goes on and on. What I'm saying is SO WHAT? Here's something you haven't got and it is essential to the progrssiveness of a society maintain it's lead in the world community. It's FREEDOM zcheng. May I say this again, it's FREEDOM zcheng. Or do you have any idea of what that is? We (The United States of America,we) Americans do, and that is why you Chinese will always inferior, in every aspect of your oppresive soceity. So< I wouldn't brag so much about being a loser.

All I said was: China is catching up fast. I do not deny US leadship in space.

We Chinese people in China enjoy our life and our progress.

FREEDOM to listen to Fox crap? FREEDOM for you die in Iraq? What about patriot Act?

You enjoy American FREEDOM, we enjoy our freedom.

comment like "Chinese will always inferior, in every aspect of your oppresive soceity.", show what a despicable person you are.

I'll show you despicable. Go look in a mirrer! Or have you got one?

Idiot. your mirror was probably made in China.