ATS Street View 05: Gun Control and Jared Loughner

reply to post by pthena


Projectvxn is ATS's Weapons and Tactics Specialist, he is currently OP on this thread and has an ongoing thread for those of us who have questions about guns, tactics, concerns, laws, legislation etc. This was a new model for me to add to my own models.

So...the T & W or W & T Counselor came into my model from Projectvxn and ATS. The model is probably not my own either because back in the day we all sat around looking at these issues and decided the more freedom the better, but only with education and "the oh so light touch of" legislation...but, not anarchy.

So, to my high school and ROTC. Because I went to school in a backwater village east of San Diego, we had a lot of perks. Our ROTC, of which I was not a part, (but I was shooting guns by then and shooting them with respect due to my mentors,) went on field trips to shoot weaponry.

Cutting to the chase, I was the Assistant Principal of a Montessori High School that left me with my specialty, troubled teens. Since it was a private school, thanks to the Board, I called the policy. My backpack and locker searches revealed cutting devices, knives, a very realistic fake gun (amazing) and pictures of guns.

All my students were gifted, all public school rejects. They could see the b*llsh*t. Right off, I told them I was knive collector and I owned a gun and had shot guns, rifles etc. for knowledge and recreation and was an avid paintballer. They knew I was not particularly bright on the subject, but that I would not turn them over to LAPD (required in LAUSD) if they messed up. I would not confiscate and I did not call parents on the condition they gave me the appliance in the morning and picked it up after school.

It's not much, but, so far, it is all of the model I could prove. But the students graduated (all) and all but one went on to college. Sarah went to dog grooming school (stopped cutting). Her mother died of cancer in her senior year of high school. She was a hundred years old when she graduated.

Reply to post by groingrinder

What they think of us: www.georgeglazer.com...

I can't wait for that cesspool island to sink.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

reply to post by skeptic_al


True, but the point I'm trying to get across here is that if most people in this country had a gun, would an unarmed criminal really want to break into a house, not knowing if anyone was home, in order to steal a gun and risk being shot by an armed citizen protecting his house and family? I know I wouldn't. But let's say that the criminal is successful in stealing a gun from someones home. He goes down to the corner shop and tries to hold it up. Your average, everyday, law-abiding citizen walks by and happens to see the store being held up or about to be held up. This law-abiding citizen also happens to be a legal gun owner and is legally carrying a concealed firearm. He goes into the store and does one of three things.

1) He walks into the store, takes aim at the criminal and tells him to drop his weapon before he is forced to shoot. The criminal obeys and puts his gun down.
2)He walks into the store and shoots the criminal somewhere where he won't be killed, for example the arm or the leg. The criminal drops his gun, crime prevented.
3)He walks into the store, and he shoots and kills the criminal. The criminal is dead and there is no more innocent lives in danger.

In all three scenarios, the crime is stopped and innocent lives are saved. Of course there is always the possibility that the criminal could kill the armed civilian and get away with his crime, but personally, I would rather have the chance for a crime to be stopped, then have no chance at all.

Now back to the point you made about breaking into someones house and stealing the gun from the top drawer. Most gun owners that I know keep most, if not all, of their guns locked in a safe when they are not at home. When they are at home, they tend to keep one firearm near their bed or in a drawer so that if someone does try to break into their home, they can protect themselves.

let's see if I have This straight;
According to post and articles that I have read, it seems that I have many basic human rights.
I have a right to the internet
I have a right to housing, food, healthcare, transportation, electricity, phone, and credit, social security, just to name a few.
.
All these rights vigorously championed by the Nome de jeur of the left.

But the right to own a gun? Good God Man!

Along with these our Constitution acknowledges each mans inalienable rights to life liberty and property.
The difference between the list of rights above and those in the Constitution is rather obvious.
The list above is given at the consent and largesses of the government the other three need no consent. On an aside the list above also has the added caveat that it carries no responsibility on the part of the individual, while the last three demand it as does the right to bear arms.
Our Constitution also recognized the right of a man to bear arms. Arms could be used to protect, and save lives, to protect and save liberty, and property. All things that came in handy when carving a nation out of the wilderness. Nothing has changed.

They sure found some winners to ask about gun control, didn't they?

I own a firearm - an SW9VE - and nothing bad has happened since I've owned it. If anyone should have an opinion on gun control, it is me.

My father, 4 friends and I were drinking when I was 16 and having a good time. Then my Dad pulls out his Springfield armory 1911 .45 and starts showing it off. He cocked it, pulled out the magazine, forgot about the one in the chamber and fired it at my left leg.

I have 2 pins in my leg now and the doctors say I may have some mild arthritis when I get older. (I'm now 28, no problems so far.)

What happened was pure stupidity. I could have lost my life, but got lucky.

The gun was not the problem. My Dad's irresponsibility was. You don't drink with your 16 year old son and his friends and pull out your gun.

I have learned that it starts with education. It took me a long time to want guns in my life again.(I bought my 9mm last year)

If guns are around for criminals no matter what laws are in place, how are the good guys going to get guns if they are outlawed or if the hoops to jump through are too extensive and expensive for the average Joe that wants to protect his home?

Keep guns legal and easy to obtain. Lets pay closer attention to the mental health of the people in our society and we will stop the problem from the source.

How about rather than a gun ban, which is an act of needlessly punishing responsible gun owners, we instead act to improve the economy, health care, and education system. That way we can have healthy, intelligent people receiving an income and being productive members of society. That would eliminate a lot of problems with crimes involving firearms.

No, guns are not evil. Am I saying I love war and all that stuff. I'm not saying that either.

I believe communication is the ultimate weapon for peace.

But, in the mean time, on our way toward peace and sanity, we may have to pull a weapon or hurt another person to protect yourself or another person(s). This also is not evil. If taking out one insane murderer with a bomb strapped to his chest saves hundreds of people, then that is an act I would consider good. You don't stand there and say, "Goodness this guy has had a hard life, look at him, he's already shot 5 innocent people. He must be under stress. Let him go ahead and get it out and blow up some more innocent people." No, you get this guy to stop what he is doing, even if it means ending his life. Hopefully it doesn't come to that, but you know what I mean.

And, honestly, some people just like to get out there and fire some guns at stuff. That's what some people like to do. If it's not hurting anyone, then it's none of my business what you do. Some people hunt for food, if that's what you want to do, then more power to you, just be watchful of other people. That's all I ask.

Troy

reply to post by angelwrangler
I didn't even know we had a Weapons and Tactics Specialist.
I'm glad I asked. It's hard to find ranges in LA County, I had to go all the way to the National Forest to use an outdoor range, back in the 80s. I don't suppose it's any easier these days is it?

I'm currently in a different state with closer ranges, 1 slow-fire target shy of 25yd Sharpshooter with .45. Do all my own reloading.

The model is an education model? Or an ideal model for freedom balance? Because I certainly agree with the most freedom practical. And I agree also that education is key. Education seems to be very low priority these days. I remember fully funded, even without lottery, schools. I'd like to see that come back.

I can appreciate the effort of the people who shot the video and the data that was collected, but I would like to see the same question asked in other states.

I live in a town where every-other house probably has a gun. I can tell you from my experience, NY city is the last place I would feel safe being unarmed.

The whole thought process of packaging "1" unfortunate event and person with every-one's guns is ludicrous. Let's say that person pulled off the whole killing spree with a box-cutter. Will there be outrage over box-cutters? I don't think so...
I guess what really got me pissed was the media glorifying the event so they can take advantage of it. If that were a bunch of Joe & Jan Consumers down at Walmart, do you think it would be exploited to this magnitude?

It takes awhile, but the powers that be are putting us to sleep and inching away all our freedoms.

I believe more than ever, since the shooting in Az, that we should not only be allowed but encourage to both own and know how to responsibility use the gun of our own choice.

The days are coming, where we will have to bare arms to protect not only our homes but also family and country. Only it will be this next time on our own home land.

This young man who made the choice to shoot and will victims without any warning was already mentally ill. He should not have had a gun, and the system was shown to be broken. Yes, this is an example of how we should tighten up the law, but not that of banning our 'Right to bare arms'.

I can't believe how media brainwashed all those New Yorkers are! NYC has an outright handgun ban, one year in jail no matter what. So no one ever gets shot in NYC anymore, right? Just like DC!

Here's the word from South of the Border: They made guns illegal in Mexico a long time ago. Guns are banned here. Ergo, only the cops and the bad guys have them. Everyone is now safe.

The brainwashing media blitz is telling you, "Don't go to Mexico, it's like a war zone, gunfights in the street, narcos running wild! Don't go down there and spend your money! Spend it here!" while at the same time telling you "guns should be banned, it's for your own safety! But don't go to that place next door where the guns are banned, it's too dangerous there, because the narcos are the only ones armed and they are running wild!"

Well, which is it?

Better to have a gun and not need it, then to need it and not have it.

Good Job STREET VIEW crew...

...But... I have to admit, I am so glad that I don't live in NYC....

I am happy to keep my HillBillyHiney right here in the hills...

reply to post by Terms777


That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Seriously......what are you thinking? Guns are evil? No people are stupid and emotional and they make decisions hastily.....The people who make bad decisions and pre plan to kill someone are not gonna go to a damn store and buy a gun if it's gonna take thirty days!!!! I lived in a different town than I live in now in Mississippi USA and there was a guy selling guns illegally out of his trunk. That sort of thing will continue regardless of whether it's legal or illegal. Which basically means that the bad people in this world who really don't give a damn whether they kill you or rape your family will just buy guns and drugs out of a car from someone and we will have no ability to protect ourselves from that sort of thing if or when it happens. It will be a criminals paradise. No home defense break ins will probably sky rocket.

I grew up in New Jersey and knew many Pagans. These guys get their fully automatic rifles from a Russian gun trafficker in Northeast Philadelphia. If the government takes away our guns, outlaws like these won't be affected, because they don't legally obtain guns in the first place!

My rights are ALREADY infringed upon!!!!!! I cannot legally own an AK-47 (fully auto) unless I pay an almost $20,000 fee AND permission from my local police township. But I can buy one from a Russian in Philly for less than a thousand bucks...

Guns are more readily available than the government officials probably think

reply to post by prexparte


Every state does have background checks, even in Walmart, i know because i bought 4 years ago a Marlin 30-30 in a Walmart in Wyoming and i had to go through a background check.

Wyoming is one of the few states where citizens can go outside with their weapons in plain sight. You can go outside with a sidearm strapped to your leg and the police won't bother you for that.

Some legislators actually wrote a bill which is being introduced that would allow the same freedom for Floridians to be able to go out with our weapons in plain sight.

A week ago or so a woman was puting gas on her car and she didn't notice a burglar get into her car somewhere in Hialeah/Miami, she drove away with the burglar hidden in the back sit. He then stopped her, raped the woman and robbed her. If she was armed this wouldn't have happened.

Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
I'm not a law breaker by any means but if they ever do outlaw guns I'll turn in everything that is registered so I don't end up in a Fema camp but........................nuff said.
Another thought comes to mind about New York and it's the Johnny Rocker interview and I quote, "On ever playing for a New York team: "I would retire first. It's the most hectic, nerve-racking city. Imagine having to take the [Number] 7 train to the ballpark, looking like you're [riding through] Beirut next to some kid with purple hair next to some queer with AIDS right next to some dude who just got out of jail for the fourth time right next to some 20-year-old mom with four kids. It's depressing." Interviewing New yorkers in no way will give an answer as to how the country feels. I wouldn't be caught in New York City without some form of firearm to protect my family.

reply to post by kwakakev


Well we had a drive by shooting by rival criminal gangs in Sydney just the other day.
In fact, since our guns were controlled 10 years ago, I've heard about more crime involving guns and drive by shootings than I did before gun control.

I've heard idiots popping off guns driving down Parramatta Road in the very early hours of the morning, at least a couple of times a month.
I don't even bother ringing the police about it anymore as they don't seem interested.

It is very intimidating knowing there are these people out there with guns, and I can't get one legally for myself.
Working as nurse previously, doing odd shifts that include afternoon and nights and having to walk to and from the railway station is very scary.
I wouldn't have felt so vulnerable if I could've had "a little something" in my handbag for protection.

So I don't know. I personally think it was a mistake to limit gun ownership here.
And I think if the issue was being decided now, with the internet, there is no way they would've got the legislation through IMO.

reply to post by Flighty

I can't even imagine. That must be frustrating as hell. The big problem is once you lose a right, how do you get it back? It's not like the government will admit it was a mistake.

reply to post by chefc14


Very true. Once the right or privilege is gone, it's gone for good. You can't get it back.
It's really not until after the dust settles, that you realise that maybe it wasn't such a good idea.
And there is damn all you can do about it.

I've spoken to many people who were pro gun abolition at the time of Port Arthur massacre (which was the catalyst for our gun control) who now, with all that has gone down since the 90s, wish they weren't so hasty to support it.

And that's the problem really, no one really knows what's coming down the pike with the way the world is going and those who currently support gun control or abolition, may well live to rue the day it happens. IF it does ever comes about in America. (Which I honestly doubt)

reply to post by AboveTopSecret.com


I used to be an advocate of gun control. However, my opinions have changed over the last five years to be against gun control in America.

My primary reasons for this are...

1. It is your right to own a gun. This right was provided because your founders learned from a history of oppression and the need of the people to be able to defend themselves in some way against an oppressive government.

2. The American government, like many others, is becoming more oppressive every day. We are seeing repeated examples of the American government (and others) using draconian laws and internationally illegal practices without any argument from the people or the international community. The influence of your federal government over the people increases every year, this is not slowing or being forced back, so this can only lead in one direction.

3. The UK has strict gun control. Ie, they are illegal in all but agricultural use, and yet we are seeing gun crime on our streets almost every week. And this is increasing. If we have rising gun crime in the UK without a legal ability to buy handguns, it is clear that even an outright ban and removal of guns in America will only serve to increase gun crime in a backlash.

4. Mathematics. The number of citizens and the number of guns in the population in America means that the crime related to them will be higher. It doesn't take a genius to know that the bigger the population, the bigger the problem. This still does not justify restricting the rights and freedoms of the masses to prevent such a crime.

It is always tragic to see events like that of the Jared Loughner case. But shouldn't the focus be on how the American medical system failed in his treatment and monitoring rather than the weapon he used?
My partner and I were once attacked in our own home by a paranoid schizophrenic in our building who had been off his medication for weeks. He had been arrested several times in a month for destroying his own home and threatening neighbors. He was released every time without any further action.
He was smashing down our door when the police arrived. He'd lacerated his legs and arms by smashing through wired glass to get through our outer door, and there was blood everywhere.
It was only after he was forcibly removed that they found a ten inch carving knife on him.
Strangely, it took this for him to be sectioned under the Mental Health Act.
My point is that a mentally ill person will use any weapon they have available. If guns were not available throughout America, they would use knives. If knives were not available, they would use clubs and bats. If those were not available, they would use their feet and fists.
A mentally ill person in such a psychological state is easily able to do a lot of damage using just their hands.

The actions of the individual and how the individual was failed by the system are what needs to be discussed here, not the methods they used to attack people.