Chinese Troops Deploying In North Korea

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by HattoriHanzou

 

I have said repeatedly that I don't believe the US and China will ever come directly into a conflict. Both countries have far more to lose than to gain. I am only cheerleading the USA because of naive posts like yours.

Yes, China just unveiled a stealth fighter, in its testing phase, and if it goes to production it will be better than the F-22, which has already seen 15 years combat for the US and is already 2 generations behind the F-35, which is also already on the way out the door to make way for the next generation, which is already one or two generations behind stuff we are testing secretly. So, in case you missed the math, China's "new" stealth fighter being tested is at least 5 generations behind our development phase, and at least 3 generations behind fighters we already have in mass production.

Yes, China has a weapon capable of sinking a carrier. Why is this a surprise? It isn't all that difficult to sink a million tons of steel suspended on top of a watery grave. The difficult part is getting your weapon to the carrier, which is highly unlikely. Our missile defenses have come a long, long way, and chances are their weapon would never reach its target, BUT that isn't the biggest deterrent. The biggest deterrent is the repercussions for such an action. Sinking a carrier would be worse than 9/11. If China decided to actually sink a carrier, they would have to be fully prepared for all out engagement with the United States. We might go tit for tat in the Koreas or in Somalia, and responses might be proportional and appropriate, but if they sink a carrier it will mean all out war. Regardless of who has the best military, an all out war between superpowers would change the face of the world for centuries! It would crush economies, set technology back decades, and undo all the progress of the last 100 years. China doesn't want that, and neither does the US. They will never attempt to sink one of our carriers.

In case anybody forgot, the US blew up a Chinese Embassy, killed many people, and China did nothing about it. Of course, we apologized and said it was an accident, but the fact is, we got away with it.

I don't think we will go for all out war with China if they sink a carrier. Hell, they might not even admit that they did it. Last year somebody sank a South Korean naval vessel, a pretty big one too, and nobody was punished for that. Could have been China or North Korea, who knows. Besides, do you think it would be reasonable to think that total war with China is even possible now? They kicked the crap out of us in Korea and that was before they even had anything approaching a modern economy.

I think your generation counting is a bit off on your fighter plane math, too. The F-35 and F-22 are actually the same generation, designed at the same time. One was chosen, a limited number were produced, and the program was canceled because we are stupid with our money. Now we are starting up the other program, mainly as a form of welfare for the defense industry. The F-22 is not even battle tested against anything even from the 80s, let alone a modern Chinese or Soviet fighter. We were shooting down late 60s era Migs and high-fiving each other like high schoolers who beat up a kid in a wheelchair with Down's Syndrome.

But think about this - if there is a large conflict with China, they will certainly be targeting our carriers, and airbases in Japan and Korea. Without those airbases and carriers, we lose air superiority over Asia. We thus lose the initiative. What would we do then, nuke China? That's crazy, and Russia would almost certainly not stand for it. So we are at a stalemate with China, and we are just as paralyzed against them as they are with us.

So sure, China could sink one of our carriers - they just wouldn't admit it afterwards!

Originally posted by HattoriHanzou
Whoa, whoa! China is creating a carrier to project power into dirt countries, like we do. They are really interested in Africa at the moment, and there are many nations in their area that do not have a credible anti-ship deterrent. Despite the vulnerability of the carrier, it's still the best way to go grind some poor bastards into dust as long as they are living in dirt in the first place.

So on one hand you slam the US for having this capability yet defend China for attempting to create the same ability. Now where is the logic in that?

They don't expect total war any more than we do, but by positioning their troops in North Korea they are saying, HANDS OFF.

Or as I suggested on page 2 of this thread they could simply be preparing to help facilitate the unification of Southern rule. I did mentioned that China has not denied the wiki leak claim of their accepting the idea of a unified Korea under southern control....

We won't really risk attacking North Korea now, because as I said before that would give China casus belli to retaliate against regional targets of their choosing, say our bases in Guam, South Korea, or Japan.

That's an interesting scenario but again as I asked a few pages back who is advocating an attack on North Korea? I'm not.

Also your point about Saddam having the best Soviet hardware isn't really accurate. He had stuff from them that was 15 years old at the time, even older. The Soviet hardware isn't as fancy as our stuff, but we never really went head to head against anything of theirs that was of the same generation as our best stuff.

That's my point!
Neither have the Chinese. Creating knock offs is a lousy way to develop state of the art war fighting technology. It means you are continually a step or two behind the creators of said hardware.

It's one thing to "defend your country" and it's another thing to just spread outright jingoistic, unrealistic assessments of what is really going on. If we are so awesome, why are "100 taliban" which is our current laughable estimate causing us so much grief in Afghanistan?

Well if you were as aware of the conflict as you are implying then you would know there are more than a "100 Taliban" I agree with your assessment however on how the war is being fought. We were doing just fine with Special Forces supporting the indigenous Northern Alliance forces when they kicked the Mostly foreign non Afghan Taliban from power within only a month or so of fighting.

Now we have mostly conventional forces trying to engage and fight off a large insurgency from Pakistan where they hide. [Which is why we are hitting them in Pakistan with Drone strikes to disrupt their support and supply lines] Which I find myself ineffective. Keep in mind that the average Afghan does not want the Taliban back in power with their twisted view of Islam.

They themselves had lived under that kind of rule.

A true patriot doesn't want to just pump up his nation despite all the facts that may sing to the contrary. Let's look at it this way - we had to cut our stealth fighter programs because we are going broke.

The F-117 program was scraped because [Even though it was impressive] was based on 70s technology and is obsolete by today's standards. The F-22 will be eclipsed and has already been so by whats waiting in the wings Maybe you have missed my reply again in this thread earlier. This is a Chinese perspective. Well worth the read.....

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/050dca315d0a.jpg[/atsimg]
China Military Report

posted by China Military 时间： 5:51:00 PM 11/20/2010

U.S. 6th generation fighter will be equipped with directed energy weapons, which combat targets against China and Russian

In today's world only one fifth-generation fighter - F-22 "Raptor" has been in service later, do the U.S. need to develop the next generation of fighter aircraft? Why do not mass production of the U.S. F-22 fighter jets, which will air supremacy firmly in control in their own hands? The U.S. military did not give any answers on these questions.

However, recently the U.S. Air Force Materiel Command (AFMC) to issue a paper notice, so many people understand what Defense Secretary Robert Gates ordered the closure of F-22 fighter jet production line really want to do. To find successors for the F-22

According to Reuters reported on November 5th Air Force has begun to look to the future, exploring the production of Lockheed Martin F-22 fighter subsequent models. Recently, the Air Force Materiel Command to the information industry, issued a consultation notice, requiring industry to provide information on available around 2030 initial operational capability of the "next-generation tactical aircraft systems" concept and the ability to form / information technology needs .

China has so much money that they are expanding and modernizing faster than any nation in history.

True however that expansion has not provided the bulk of their people a decent standard of living. It runs the risk of implosion. But that's an argument for another thread.

We should be wary of engaging against a foe like that. We may have great tech but with constant budget cutbacks, and with a huge chunk of the remaining money going into occupying two countries we rightly shouldn't give a crap about, our warfighting potential is greatly diminished. Yeah we rolled into Iraq and stomped everything there.

Let's put this in it's proper historical context. Gaining control of Iraq accomplished two strategic objectives.

1. We eliminated our old Cold War supported puppet Saddam Husein. Russia and China have yet to effectively deal with theirs. North Korea.

2. Having gained an influence in the region the West can effectively influence who gets the oil. Like it or not that's how the game is played.

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED

right?

AND....

It would have been done so much sooner had Iran not needlessly extending the war a full two years or more by trying to influence the establishment of the Iraqi government by supplying, equipping and training the insurgency that FAILED.

Originally posted by ikke24
WHY are you Americans so addicted to war ?

you people are talking here at this forum if the you are in your rights to deal with other countries polycies

It seems to me that you guys do actually want a war

the only country that wants to invade the USA is ...the USA itself
the rest of the world is currently getting enough of your meddlesomeness

your will finally blow up your own country (economics)
It allready started that countries are leaving trading in the dollar

how much debt do you have ???????

who wants to re-finance that??

don't get me wrong I'm not against the USA, it a beautiful country with nice people
only your meddlesomeness.....

Its like buying a brand new ferrari (military) and keeping it in the garage and shining it, polishing it every day and you are itching to take it out for a spin and see how it does on the road. I will have one in a few years

reply to post by SLAYER69


First off, I am not slamming aircraft carriers. They are useful for pounding on dirt countries. They are not useful against a nation with anti-ship capability, however. China surely knows this as well as we do.

Second, China's stealth capability seems like a knockoff, but knockoffs worked well enough for Russia after WWII. Their Mig was a knockoff of an advanced German design, and in fact the Mig was a more capable design than the Sabre. Aside from this, once you have stealth, it seems pretty much "good enough" for horseshoes and hand grenades. Besides, a planned economy allows them a much more streamlined process. Many of our projects are nothing but welfare for big defense firms, and add little to the actual warfighting capability of our forces. The F-35 is actually slightly less capable than the F-22, but it's quite a bit cheaper. It is not by any means a generation ahead of the F-22. With the commie countries, they find a workable design and stick to it, as long as it credibly adds to their capability. This makes sense for them. After all, in China the purpose of a fighter jet is to fly, not to provide income to large firms.

As far as Iran goes, it's a testament to the short-term planning that we engaged in in Iraq. We want the oil, that much is obvious, and rather than making nice with Saddam and getting it, we ended up causing his countrymen to actually sympathize with their hated legendary enemy of 5000 years in order to get it!

I think that, as long as we have our large garrison of troops in Iraq, we will maintain control of that nation, in the long term this could be one of the most colossal foreign policy blunders of all time - on the order of another Viet Nam.

I don't know when we will be leaving Iraq for good, but it'll probably look a lot like the evacuation of Nam. I sure don't want to be in line for that last chopper.

reply to post by THE_PROFESSIONAL


Lol, US military is just like a Ferrari, couldn't have found a better substitute.

Chinese military is like a fleet of dodge chargers.




Let me just say this, the future of warfare is determined by nuclear capability.

China no more wants a serious confrontation with the USA than the USA wants one with them.
Maybe, just maybe, China are acting as some sort of restraining force in NK.

China won't benefit in any way whatsover from any conflict with the USA and for all it's public political posturing and rhetoric it will be working frantically behind the scenes to make sure that no major conflict occurs.

IMHO the movement of chinese troops into the north is in fact to deter the north koreans from leave the north into China when the change finally starts. A unified Korea with the south controlling should be beneficial to the north as it should help the average north citizen live a better life.

Originally posted by HattoriHanzou
Also your point about Saddam having the best Soviet hardware isn't really accurate. He had stuff from them that was 15 years old at the time, even older. The Soviet hardware isn't as fancy as our stuff, but we never really went head to head against anything of theirs that was of the same generation as our best stuff.

Yeah. There's a reason for that. Several, really. We only went "head to head" against Soviets a few times, in a few small actions, that were mostly never heard about. The reason for that was that no one really wanted to spark off the Big One. There were a few small incidents in the north, "around" Alaska (one was on an island just 45 miles or so away from Russia, where we had some guys doing some LRP recon), a few incidents in Europe, along and around borders, and of course Afghanistan. A few isolated incidents involving "advisors" (both Soviet and US "advisors") here and there in 3rd world countries, too. Nothing really major in the way of "head to head" conflict.

Another reason is that the Soviets never had anything of the same generation as our best stuff. The RPG-18 is a case in point. It was based on, and a knock-off of, our M72A2 LAW. The RPG-18 didn't show until about half way through the Afghan War. At that point, the M72A2 was already OLD. Same for their AK-74. It was the Soviet answer to the American M16, but in production years later. Trying to keep up with the Joneses, the key being "keep up".

Yup, there's reasons why we never went head to head with the Soviets fielding equipment "of the same generation as our best stuff". China is in the same er... boat...

Originally posted by HattoriHanzou
They kicked the crap out of us in Korea and that was before they even had anything approaching a modern economy.

The Korean war vets I knew called it a little differently. According to them, the Chinese were tough because there were so damned many of them. It was hard to stand upright and remain so while walking across the bodies of those you already killed in order to get to the live ones so you could kill them, too. Yeah, there were a bunch of them, but they die magnificently, and in droves!

How is that getting the crap kicked out of US?

reply to post by die_another_day


A working anti missile shield would render the nuclear deterrent obsolete, which is what the US is aiming for.

A network of mass drivers, aka "rods from god", transatmospheric bombers and transports giving the ability to strike anywhere on earth in one hour is also what the US is aiming for.

Considering the history of projects like the F-117, some of it is guaranteed to already exist.

Whoever controls space will dominate the world in the next twenty years.

reply to post by Resurrectio


Well,,Im can be very funny and ruff??(more like dingy at times) behind the keyboard,,,,smile,,,

My tiny reply was just a tiny reply,,,smile,,,my opinion,,,

This thread turned into "Invasion USA",,,chuck norris

I assume you are or had transmision/tranny problems in the past????(with your car)

smile

At 5 foot and 99 lbs soaking wet I sure can get reactions,,,,lol

If alot of here were together you'd probly smile and laugh at me,,,,

Its good we voice our opinions here,,,

I DONT want no war or Nukes going off,,,South korea could wip the North ,,yet the North would/could inflict massise civillian casulties,,

The whole countrywould nedd a trillion or so to get it back on tract??????????,,massive aid,,,etc,,,hell of a price tag to get kim and his kid out??

Its a buffer zone for China,,,but Im sure China behind closed doors would re-consider options....China itself is probly shocked and knows its hell there,,

What happens if another crazy army officer without the OK lobs a few missles again or sinks another ship,,,???

China i assume has thought of adopting it as its own terriotory(many but its such a failed state even beyond repair for many years,,,MANY,,,

Its really sad on the people who live there,,,being under the wing of China has not done diddly for North korea,,,,

ZILCH....

China has many kind and sweet people there,,,,I would love to visit there....

What a mess,,,huh????

there is so much sickness in the world...,,I dont trust anybody with the magic wand,,,,(meaning if the tides were turned),,like the evil ring in "lord of the rings",,,,

My opinion is tiny but it is sincere,,,


Kona

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by Ben81
who think will pussy out ? at first sight of the enemy ..
VS

Yeah they Look great marching I'll admit.
But exactly how much Real World combat experience do they have?

That's the real difference

edit on 18-1-2011 by SLAYER69 because: (no reason given)

Hehe, did you notice that Hu Jintao looks bored all the time, but at the sight of the women batallions he is cheering like a kid

As I was watching the video, in my mind I kept thinking "tic toc tic toc, tic toc..........

reply to post by oniris


I suupose this thread will be closed after that video and we can all eat oatmeal cookies and watch cartoons and nothing to worry about?????

I didnt see any humor in it???

Nor did I see any threat nor weakness either...


Smile,,,,,maybe I do see some on your point,,,Im funny myself...

Myabe the holiday or they had graduation to,,,


come on????

lol,,,

should I add some kung foo videos from "Youtube" from kung foo theater,,, from 1980???
or jon ramboo befriending the population in Afghanistan????

I find only humor in your reply,,,

There should be a thread /section for comedians here....(down the hall and to the left next to the restroom)

Kona

Originally posted by Little_Kona

What happens if another crazy army officer without the OK lobs a few missles again or sinks another ship,,,???

I'm guessing that right there has a LOT to do with why China has undergone this deployment, rather than any thoughts of beating war drums against America, or trying to buffer Kimmy with a few Chinese troops in harms way to try to provide an excuse to spark a war.

I'm guessing China would rather not have a repeat of rogue actions that might destabilize even further, and are hedging against that possibility. Troops are probably there to keep an eye on NK rogues rather than stare down the folks across the DMZ.

Originally posted by crappiekat
As I was watching the video, in my mind I kept thinking "tic toc tic toc, tic toc..........

That's funny. I was thinking "Ain't all that synchronized goose-stepping just purty as a speckled pup in a little red wagon?"

Right after that, I was thinking "nice synchronized goose stepping. Pity they don't pour that energy into practical exercises on how to fight a real war".

Unless they plan to stomp right across the opposition all lined up and goose-stepping... odd strategy, if that's the plan...

I can't think of anything I despise worse than parade field ballerinas.

reply to post by nenothtu

I'm guessing China would rather not have a repeat of rogue actions that might destabilize even further, and are hedging against that possibility. Troops are probably there to keep an eye on NK rogues rather than stare down the folks across the DMZ.

But do you really think China sides with the SK/US in saying the last two rogue actions, the torpedo and the shelling, really was the NK.??
There are quite a few that doubt that, especially the torpedo incident...

Since everybody seems to like Marching Chinese soldiers.
I tossed this together

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by nenothtu

 

I'm guessing China would rather not have a repeat of rogue actions that might destabilize even further, and are hedging against that possibility. Troops are probably there to keep an eye on NK rogues rather than stare down the folks across the DMZ.

But do you really think China sides with the SK/US in saying the last two rogue actions, the torpedo and the shelling, really was the NK.??
There are quite a few that doubt that, especially the torpedo incident...

No, I didn't say that they "sided with the US" in allegations concerning those incidents, I said that they have a vested interest in disallowing further occurrences which could lead to some bad business, and put them on the public spot. Now, deploying to NK, they will of course be able to "influence" any bad decisions on the part of the North Koreans, AND the will be ideally situated to determine if NK was NOT the offending party. That would, of course, tend to discourage any other "offenders" who may be hiding in the shadows. Nothing like getting caught with your hand in the cookie jar to generate some bad press.

Personally, I'm convinced that NK WAS the offending party in those incidents, but I gather that not everyone thinks like I do...

reply to post by SLAYER69


That'd be a hell of an ad for the new Red Dawn movie, now wouldn't it?