Atheism

Originally posted by Cosmic.Artifact

Originally posted by SaturnFX
You know what else I cannot prove does not exist?

but I, and many other people can prove to you "Love" exists, it is even something you can see.

in "fact" atheists know this already, I have had two atheists profess their belief in love just today...

how about you SFX ?

do you believe in love ?

edit on 1/16/2011 by Cosmic.Artifact because: (no reason given)

You cannot prove love exists. You can see examples and effects of love, but proving love exists would first off require you to define love in absolute terms, then gain psychic powers, then somehow be able to measure clearly the "love particles" that are in play...aka, it can't be measured directly..nor will it ever be able to be measured directly...its an emotion, it has nothing tangable about it.

And back to the first issue...what is love? To you, love may be lust mixed in with comfort...for the next guy, love may be obsession with self image issues, and the third may be simply empathy and kinship for all...its a pretty loosely used word.

Buying a diamond ring for someone is not proof of love, kissing, making love, giving your last piece of bread, hugging, etc...none of that is proof of love..now it may be effects of..but it in itself is not love, nor the reason behind it.

Wow, I wouldn't call it a social virus. Everything has its place.
People actually exist who ask the same questions that you do and albeit do not come to a conclusion that is based on illogical reasoning from lack of contemplation, intelligence or self-determination. For many, many educated, cultured and experienced people, they have given the subject of existence more thought than you may be aware of.

I have written part of this following section in another thread on ATS but I feel it is relevant information to reiterate here.

People collectively possess an innate need to believe in something Divine or of higher power. This concept is much more ingrained in society than people may realise. Some sociologists, such as the French sociologist Emile Durkheim, argue that religion functions predominantly to ensure social cohesion and integration and that this is promoted and maintained within a society by a shared devotion to certain specific phenomena, especially iconic objects (for example, the Cross, found in the Christian religion), concepts (e.g. God), and places (e.g. churches) etc. In other words, without religion acting as a means of social cohesion, society would not function as it presently does.

In addition to this, there is lasting archaeological evidence that suggests some of the earliest nomadic tribes and civilisations performed specific rituals and adhered to particular religious customs, effectively indicating that these people, some who existed over 50,000 years ago, actually practiced a belief in some higher essence or power that was beyond them.

I entirely disagree with the idea that we are heading towards full-blown secularism; that religion will, one day, simply cease to exist. At this stage, humanity is still in its infancy of exploring the nature of being. As times change and we with them, if one belief structure crumbles or falls, another will rise in its place. For example, my former sociology lecturer once mentioned that he believes environmentalism will progress into a developed religion within a few decades time because this is one defined path which society is seemingly heading down at the present time; what with so much emphasis being placed upon carbon footprints and interacting more harmoniously and consciously with our natural world... We are already seeing a resurgence of Pagan and Earth religions with Neo-Paganism and Neo-Druidism etc etc.

I personally believe that established religion is stagnating and perhaps obsolete. I was raised as a Catholic but have possessed a passionate curiosity for all things all of my life, which has subsequently guided me towards my current beliefs which are acutely self-determined and deeply personal.
I'll finish up with some smart words from a very smart man:

A human being is a part of a whole, called by us "universe", a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest... a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.

The answer to what happens when we die is so obvious that some people will buy into the craziest beliefs you've ever heard just to avoid this obvious answer.

The answer? Nowhere. You go nowhere!!

You know how it is that you didn't exist on planet earth before you were born? Well, that's the same place you'll go when you die too. I know that you're not gonna want to let go of that "eternal paradise" you think you got comin' but nothing makes more sense than "the end is the end."

If you believe in God then you have wasted your life submitting to something that was never there, and you will have encouraged children to do the same. You'll have spent your life promoting a lie that encourages people to put a non existent entity at a greater value than themselves. That's pretty low.

You will have also contributed nothing to mankind because you'll have left it all in the hands of that non existent force. And in case you didn't know, this is a great tragedy. In the end your life will have been spent pursuing that which is fake.

I, on the other hand, as a result of being right, will have done everything in my power to discover that which is true (and obviously succeeded), aiding my fellow humans in the noble pursuit of happiness and freedom (something that a servant to nothingness does not pursue).

Oh yeah, and one other thing, you're also going to look like a total moron. I mean, are you serious? People probably pretend to believe just for a little insurance of getting to Heaven. Your fool god allows that?!?!

Common sense and faith don't mix very well. One defeats the other. If common sense works then faith isn't necessary. If faith is necessary then obviously common sense wasn't working.

Originally posted by ac3rr
Religion was created to explain that which was not explainable, to give order to chaos. In this era of science and rational thought. it simply isn't as necessary now that we have knowledge.

I agree about why religion was created. I say it's the story people tell themselves about where we came from and where we're going. It gives people a feeling of belonging where we are. It provides 'someone' to ask for things we want, someone to thank when good things happen and someone to focus on when bad things happen. It gives people perspective and meaning. That's why I think many are still very attached to it. And I don't have a problem with that at all. To each his own. I really believe in freedom of religion.

But even as we gain knowledge, some people will still need the construct of religion. It's outside of knowledge and always has been. Even though we've learned about the beginning of the Universe, people have tied religion into it, saying that God created the big bang, etc. Intelligent design is another idea tht has surfaced as we get more knowledgeable. I think the religious will always tweak the story slightly to accommodate the knowledge that we gain. Because of how important the idea of a God is to them. And that's OK with me. None of us KNOWS, so who am I to say that anyone is wrong about their beliefs?

I believe that Atheism is a religion, I believe that they believe they are going nowhere.

Atheism is not new, yet it is also not agreed upon by a majority, never has been, that's why the numbers are low (something like 4% of the population, yes that includes China)

I believe it is better to believe what Theists believe because it gives meaning and yes... hope to life.

when there is not hope or no meaning and one believes they are going nowhere after death, this is the sign of a delusional mind, there is a small minority of delusional people in any setting you put yourself in.

for if one does not value their own life they just may not value the lives of others, this is indicative of who has the ability to do harm to others.

it has always been this way, nothing much new under the sun...

reply to post by AQuestion


The science behind that is just logic. Prove gremlins don't exist. You cannot. Prove pink fairies don't exist. You cannot. How about magic cranberries? Well?

However I can prove brown dogs exist. I can prove starfish exist. Whoever's making the claim something exists is the one who's required to put forth the proof. Until then it should be assumed whatever is claimed does not exist, at least outside the realm of the claimer's mind.

Originally posted by Cosmic.Artifact
I believe that Atheism is a religion, I believe that they believe they are going nowhere.

I believe Christianity is a death wish. I believe that they believe they are corn dogs with mustard.

Hmmm... Something tells me that I'm as wrong in these beliefs as you are. But that's OK. Your beliefs don't affect me one way or the other.

I believe it is better to believe what Theists believe because it gives meaning and yes... hope to life.

I have great GOBS of meaning and hope in my life! In fact, I am so content and happy that I don't need to attack other people for what they believe or don't believe. I don't need to tell them that they're wrong. I am not insecure in my beliefs. I don't feel threatened by others' beliefs and I don't need to poke and prod others and make threads about how wrong they hare to have their beliefs... I am centered, grounded and whole. Some people's lives are so void of meaning that their only joy in life is in striking out at others who believe differently than they do. How very sad.

when there is not hope or no meaning and one believes they are going nowhere after death, this is the sign of a delusional mind, there is a small minority of delusional people in any setting you put yourself in.

And I don't need to accuse them of being delusional to make me feel better about my beliefs.

for if one does not value their own life they just may not value the lives of others, this is indicative of who has the ability to do harm to others.

I have seen many incorrect and outrageous claims about atheists (most of them from you ) but this is a first: That atheists don't value their lives or the lives of others... Sometimes I wonder how sad and insecure someone must be to constantly lie about and attack a group of people like you do... I'm so sorry you're so unhappy and unsure of your own beliefs that you have to strike out constantly like you do...

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


but you fail to realize that which established your society and your specific great gobs of hope...

it is only a lack of education in history and a weak understanding of philosophy which has brought you to this circular, not very clear, reasoning and logic.

it is so funny how such a small minority can wreak so much havoc, given they were raised never having to work a day in their lives and somehow the money just being there to make videos and set-up lectures ect, when there are people starving in their backyard.

gotta love the spoiled rotten arrogance of the professed atheist...

personally I believe it would be better for atheists to just claim they are agnostic and keep their personal feelings to themselves. It makes perfect sense because the other belief systems do not really want atheism attaching themselves to their belief.

I mean the evidence is overwhelming... but if it says "hey look at me" for the atheists, then so be it, everyone needs attention (love) in my opinion.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


I forgot to mention...

the way you formulate your responses is dictative, in my opinion it is not a good trait to possess...

one can tell alot about someones psychology by they way they write their letters, letter writing is much more intimate and reflective.

everything is not a debate, but more along the lines of esoteric questions, which are learning questions.

my favorite esoteric question is as old as dirt itself... (Why?)

reply to post by Cosmic.Artifact


You make no sense whatsoever. Your assumptions and generalizations (incorrect as they are) only serve to confuse the issue. If you can't come up with anything better than your usual "Atheists = Bad, Christians = Good" rhetoric, it's not worth my time to even try to understand what you're saying.

Originally posted by ac3rr
reply to post by AQuestion

 

The science behind that is just logic. Prove gremlins don't exist. You cannot. Prove pink fairies don't exist. You cannot. How about magic cranberries? Well?

Monotheism's God is not a gremlin or a pink fairy...

there is no need to prove gremlins and unicorns do not exist nor pink fairies, because they do not...

we do not observe gremlins or fairies or unicorns in the world around us...

but for Monotheists, God is observed in the world and is quite evident.

some people would just rather look for unicorns and fairies or flying spaghetti, ect.

simple as that...

Atheism - Been there done that. Its dead.

Its become some cool and witty label to wear, or the anti-label. It is basically a bunch of psuedo-intellectual and witty logical systematic frameworks with which to attack and annihilate anything that has to do with faith, belief, and God ...

....while unknowingly and at the same time not realizing that the whole frameworks of Atheism is also built on conceptual thought, faith, and belief.

Conceptual thought ...is mind stuff, imagination, speculation.
Faith ....in science, in conceptual thought, in the frameworks of Atheism.
Belief ....in conceptual thought, in science, in all of the above.

I found that atheism is really not that much different than religion. Its just the religion of anti-religion however all based on the same thing. Conceptual thought.

Kill atheism, kill dogma, kill religion.

Give me the direct experience of absolute truth. Give me Enlightenment devoid of any of the above.

Originally posted by Cosmic.Artifact
for if one does not value their own life they just may not value the lives of others, this is indicative of who has the ability to do harm to others.

Tell me, if you have the last ice cream on earth...the last ice cream in the universe...do you value it?

Many atheists also tend to think nothing will happen after this existance is up...to them, they are the last ice cream example...the only thing left...
Most atheists overvalue life as a rule because they don't see simple things worth dying for...they progress science in the hopes of extending life as long as possible, with the hopes of one day finding a way to bypass death all together.

Have there been radicals before? sure..mental disorders are rampant in humans in general. But generally speaking, an atheist has a profound respect for life because there is no golden castle waiting for us once we die.

Personally...I am not sure what to think of a "afterlife". I like to think there is something more, but until some actual evidence comes forward, then its just speculation. I have some personal storys, but nothing that can be repeated or measured, so my personal system of beliefs may be out in left field and more hope than reality at play...I live life like it is all I got and treat others as if this is all they got also...the outcome of that is charity, love, sharing knowledge, and positive interactions when possible.

Originally posted by dominicus
....while unknowingly and at the same time not realizing that the whole frameworks of Atheism is also built on conceptual thought, faith, and belief.

Erm...no

Do you believe and have faith that elves don't exist under your home? Do you have faith and conceptual thought that this isn't the case, or do you simply not believe there are elves under your home because you have no evidence of that?

Its not a faith to simply not believe in something until there is evidence to prove it...you don't have to have faith that the world is round, you simply accept that fact due to scientific understanding.

As far as you being an atheist...nope, sorry...with your reasoning, I would venture to say you were an anti-thesis, not a atheist...or a gnostic atheist (I know there is no God)...which yes, is religious to make such a claim.

Please frame your former self properly...you took atheism as a religion verses what it is...you decided to become fanatical and gnostic, because you cannot shake off the religious training..and yep, many gnostic atheists tend to find some religion later on in life..because they never really left it to begin with

Flawed thinking is flawed thinking, no matter which side of the fence your standing on.

reply to post by SaturnFX


Love is caring as much about others as you do about yourself. You can only prove love if you have experienced it, if you have then it is proven, if you do not love others as you love yourself then you cannot prove it. We can prove our subjective experience better than our "objective" experience. One cannot prove objectively that pain exists, it is a subjective experience; but, for me it is the most real thing there is. We should never ignore the subjective truth, our experience is a sense also and it is measurable.

reply to post by SaturnFX

Erm...no Do you believe and have faith that elves don't exist under your home? Do you have faith and conceptual thought that this isn't the case, or do you simply not believe there are elves under your home because you have no evidence of that? Its not a faith to simply not believe in something until there is evidence to prove it...you don't have to have faith that the world is round, you simply accept that fact due to scientific understanding. As far as you being an atheist...nope, sorry...with your reasoning, I would venture to say you were an anti-thesis, not a atheist...or a gnostic atheist (I know there is no God)...which yes, is religious to make such a claim. Please frame your former self properly...you took atheism as a religion verses what it is...you decided to become fanatical and gnostic, because you cannot shake off the religious training..and yep, many gnostic atheists tend to find some religion later on in life..because they never really left it to begin with Flawed thinking is flawed thinking, no matter which side of the fence your standing on.

Thought is not reality. And so everything that we have both said is just a bunch of straw, semantically subjective, and completely conceptual. Were both wrong. So take the following how you will ....knowing that if there is truth within it, then it will resonate.

There is no one out there saying that there are methods to experience directly the elves under their house. Not one person.

In the case of God ....there is just way too many individuals who say they have experienced this reality and show how to get there.

If there was a way to experience the elves under a house, I would technically have to try this way myself, to see whether or not the outcome is or isn't the direct experience of these elves. Without undertaking it, anything else I say is speculation and the realm of imagination and conceptual thought.

I think its very Baby-ish to say that God is just an idea and a belief and everything religious revolving around that is based on faith in an idea/thought. The heart and core of it all is the direct beyond a doubt experience of the reality of God ......outside of and not including any kind of idea, belief, faith, or thought about God.

This is the great chasm ........to an Atheist the premise is that God is just an idea and thought ...like your theoretical elves. But its so far from anything that has to do what anyone thinks about anything.

Have it how you want it though. I'd rather rip apart everything available to see directly for myself if there really is a direct experience of God ...then to just sit back and speculate about a non-possibility of it. And because I want to directly see for myself (no matter what the answer) .....Atheism was a logical dead end because it bases itself on God being a thought and a whole set of logical and witty frameworks to argue every available thing said about God..... but things said about God, are not God.

the only thing Atheism cannot say is that it has genuinely looked and tried every path and technique possible to see for itself if there is such a thing as a direct experience of God....... and so the Chasm begins...

Originally posted by SaturnFX
Tell me, if you have the last ice cream on earth...the last ice cream in the universe...do you value it?

riddle me this...

what kind of logical opening is this, is it tailored to fit the needs of the rest of your statement ? is it based on some philosophical or historical question ?

though I do admire you are trying to formulate a normal response in your conversation, I still feel there is something missing from your opening and possible dictation.

maybe you can begin with a (Dear Cosmic Artifact)

just sayin' ya know... so funny... the dead and slain do walk !

Re Dominicus

Sensible as many of your posts are, I will, in what I hope is an inoffensive way, disagree with you on a few points.

You wrote:

[" Conceptual thought ...is mind stuff, imagination, speculation.
Faith ....in science, in conceptual thought, in the frameworks of Atheism.
Belief ....in conceptual thought, in science, in all of the above."]

Interesting thoughts, but invalid in the context (or rather lack of context) you present them. You'll have to go to at least a Cartesian level of epistemology (or probably beyond) to make such statements meaningful one way or another.

Meanwhile there's quite much conceptual thought, which can relate with straight logic to practically all rational knowledge mankind possesses.

'Faith' in science is not the same as faith in abstract speculations. Science is axiomatically based, i.e. pragmatic, and forthcoming scientific answers are also pragmatically tested once more to make sure. 'Faith' as speculation or doctrine is assumptional. A distinct difference.

But as I said, from DesCartes you can start questioning this.

Quote: ["I found that atheism is really not that much different than religion. Its just the religion of anti-religion however all based on the same thing. Conceptual thought."]

I believe, that you and I use the word religion in different ways. For me it has a definite theistic element, so personally I would call atheism a belief-system. On another thread the actual existence of organized atheism was debated, and very few examples of such turned up. Most atheists just deny the claims of theists as meaningless, but not going into a formally organized ANTI-attitude.

Quote: ["Kill atheism, kill dogma, kill religion.
Give me the direct experience of absolute truth. Give me Enlightenment devoid of any of the above."]

In a careful, academic way I agree with you. But not as any active act as suppressing anything. For the time being it would just lead to further polarization, which the aim hopefully is to avoid. And while I am a metaphysicist myself, believing in 'anomalies' of undefined character, I far prefer the company and support of atheism respecting secular, egalitarian society, to that of theistic elistists, who only want to recreate their fascist theocracies. Besides atheists can usually function rationally, while theists ever fabulate.

As to direct experience I also agree, BUT:

Quote: [In the case of God ....there is just way too many individuals who say they have experienced this reality and show how to get there."]

And not two of them (just an expression not to be taken literally) agree upon what they experience. I hope there will be a chance sometime to follow such thoughts much further than this, but just for now: Direct experience is a chinese box.

Re Cosmic.Artifact

An overwhelming part of your posts are CLAIMS about this or that. How right you are; how you have defeated opposition; about life, the universe and everything; but it's very unusual for you to validate, verify or demonstrate these claims in any way.

Inconvenient requests of support for your claims are ignored by you, and you repeat the same wild postulates again and again, completely disregarding any evidence to the opposite.

So sorry Dude, it's not often I get so direct; but I believe you suffer from severe megalomania.

reply to post by Cosmic.Artifact


You observe god? The Christian god? Please explain how you observe the Christian god.