"It's Easier for the Mentally Ill to get a Gun than Adequate Health Care"

It's tragic that it is easier for the severely mentally ill to get a gun than adequate health care"

Michio Kaku, posted on Facebook.



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A rather alarming commentary, isn't it?

Health Insurance companies don't really like to cover mental health problems, and typically have inadequate policies when they do. Mental Health treatments, hospitalizations, and medications can also be very expensive, and not always easy to access.

Reportedly, mentally ill people are not permitted to buy guns. However, there is no way to identify them when making this purchase, unless the person identifies it himself, or if the salesman should happen to investigate his own suspicions. But again, confidentiality concerns are very strict in this arena. Besides, many such persons are undiagnosed, and unidentified by the mental health systems, and the mental illness has long been untreated.

I believe this should call our attention to the need for comprehensive, fair, health care for all.

reply to post by ladyinwaiting


Starred and flagged ladyinwaiting.

This touches very close to some things I was saying earlier. It's a shame, our mental health system in the US. It truly is.

~Heff

You know after reading something like this it really hits you.
And it hits you pretty hard..

There is often a stigma attached to a mental health diagnosis (which is unreasonable and unfair), but it exists.
This stigma is absent with gun ownership.

Additionally, with what some people pay monthly for mental health care, you could easily buy a couple of guns.

Just a thought, you can buy a gun cheaper than a normal months insurance payment. That is scary.

reply to post by liejunkie01


It makes quite a statement about our value system. Indeed it does.

Good point.

reply to post by ladyinwaiting


Yes, a stigma does exist and mental illness is a taboo in most, if not all, countries on this big blue planet. The statement by the good doctor is relevant to the direction our society continues to head in. I have engaged in nonsensical conversations with board members who believe equal health care is a step towards Socialism and shouldn't be considered a right. Health care is as much a right as is education and the right to bear arms falls a long way down the list. Education and health care advances society, not guns.

reply to post by ladyinwaiting


This is just pandering by kaku.

Yes. Healthcare, Mental Health and Education are the basis of everything and should be taken care of before anything. Heck, if people are in good mental shape I`d even leave them their guns.

If you had to have insurance to buy a gun, they would probably be as hard to get as health care.

Uhhh .... don't pass that along. Don't want the government to get any ideas.

reply to post by andy1033


Andy, with respect it is very difficult to understand your posts at the best of times. I know many have tried and to no avail. I think Kaku's statement is a very pertinent observation on today's society. No pandering, just an astute comment by the doctor.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Yes. Healthcare, Mental Health and Education are the basis of everything and should be taken care of before anything. Heck, if people are in good mental shape I`d even leave them their guns.

Of course, health care for all is too democratic..... even socialistic, so it must remain private. Guns, of course, are another matter.

Interesting thought, though. If everyone was in good mental health, I wonder if we would still have murderers roaming about.

Not that seeing a doctor, even the best, is a cure for all that ails one. Medicine isn't there yet, but we've come a long way, in a relatively short period.

reply to post by Hefficide


Thank you Heff.

It can be such a complicated ordeal. So much red tape, and continual arguing about what they (the insurance companies) will and won't pay. The clerks seem to know so much more than the physicians and practitioners, about what a patient needs these days.

But with the political climate the way it is, I don't see any chance for progress. Regression, on the otherhand, is starting to seem like a possibility.

I thank you for your comment.

reply to post by LarryLove


Thank you LL. I wish everyone could see this issue as clearly as you.

It requires looking at the "big picture". People have a tendency to only look at how something immediately effects them. The tax issue for example, seems to be something they can't think beyond, while neglecting to consider or appreciate the positive effects such a system could have on our society, and all the "trickle down" benefits that could be gained from a healthy citizenry.

I appreciate your comments. (Here, and everywhere, I think.)

The thing is, Jared did not view himself as mentally ill. So how are you going to determine that in advance? And just what is "mental health care"? Too often it is just drugs to slow you down. Yeah, Jared behaved in what some might call an odd way, but was that becaise he was "crazy" or because he was exercising his personal freedom of speech. My guess is the majority of people on ATS would have applauded Jared's actions (PRIOR to his killing spree, I hasten to add). After all, he was a 9/11 truther. He was described by a classsmate as a "left wing pot head." He railed against the 'establishment,' all time-honored and respected points of view here on ATS. If someone had managed to get Jared off the streets there would be a dozen threads on ATS railing against the authorities for over stepping their bounds and violating Jared's civil rights, the same way they have discussed poor Private Manning of WikiLeaks fame.

Now let's examine what 'mental health care' IS. Now I know that sometimes mental health care works. For example, a psychiatrist might be able to identify a physical cause for a mental problem, a hormonal imbalance, perhaps a tumor, that is responsible for mental behavior. So this is not to say that 'mentally ill' people can never be helped. However, most mental health issues fall into one of three categories.

1. The talking therapies. Mental health counselors from psychologists to social workers can "talk" you through your anguish, help you 'work through' your anxieties to help you gain normal relationships. People who benefit from this are usually more neurotic than really 'mentally ill.'

2. Drugs for such things as ADD. Thorazine and similar drugs basically slow your system down. If you've slowed down, you're less likely to flip out. Of course, if you go 'off your meds' bad things can happen. We had a young man here recently go off his meds and stab his 88 year old neighbor to death.

3. Lock up. If it's that bad, a locked cell so you don't harm anyone.

Jared did not exhibit anything that would justify two or three here. He presented himself as an angry young man who had some control issues with alcohol and drugs--just like a large percentage of his contemporaries. If you were to force himm into 'adequate health care' for the behavior he exhibited, half the people on ATS would be joining him.

reply to post by schuyler

Schuyler, I absolutely agree with everything you said, except this:

Jared did not exhibit anything that would justify two or three

When someone you know well is changing dramatically before your eyes, and not in a good way, you can see something is wrong. He was isolating himself, having both high school and college staff calling his parents, and was escalating in anger. His parents had called a neighbor asking for help.

And why, I wonder, did his father follow him the morning of the shootings? He knew something was wrong, and what his father was afraid of, we can only guess. There were tips and red flags along the way. Any of the above you mentioned would have been at least the beginning of an intervention for this guy.

I pay over 3 grand alone on insurance every year not including medication every few months and doctor visits I have been paying it now for 5 years and i had to work in order to afford medical. Now that i am not working i get money from unemployment and it pretty much all goes back to the medical system. I seem to get just enough to make it but never enough to get ahead and its frustrating as i am now 23 have worked since i have been able to and have pretty much nothing. My life revolves around finding a way to pay for medical without it i am to sick to work and without work i will not be able to keep paying for better health. I actually plan to go down to get medical unless i can find another job i am able to flourish in such as the second hand industry.

The idea of government run mental health care is scary as hell! Sure, there needs to be better access to mental health care but, putting the government in charge is NOT the answer.

The health care industry tends to ignore the laws of economics. When people rely on something to live, they often don't care about the costs and will pay whatever they must to stay alive or preserve their health. When someone else is paying the bills, as in Medicare or through HMOs, they have even less interest in what their care will cost and prices are bound to spiral.

It seems that, every time someone tries to control health-care costs, it just ends up making the prices rise even faster. The rise of employer paid health insurance encouraged hospitals to try to bring in insured customers over those who were uninsured. Medicare made it possible for hospitals to game the system and make a mint off the elderly who were money losers for them before that. The advent of for profit hospitals (capitalism) caused hospitals to chase the dollar over the welfare of their patients and corruption and patient abuse cases soared. Every single time the health care system was adjusted, it just caused the prices of health care to rise even faster.

I've been reading the book Money-Driven Medicine: The Real Reason Health Care Costs So Much. It shows how everything done in the past has tended to drive the greed of the people in power and drive up the cost of health-care.

I fear that Government comprehensive health-care, while taking the costs away from the common man, would quickly drive the costs of health-care through the roof and either bankrupt the government or drive us quicker towards hyperinflation.

Mental Illness has nothing to do with whether it is easier to get medical help or buy a gun.
Sane people buy guns every day and Sane people are turned down everyday to buy a gun just like a mentally ill person.

True...by looking at someone you can't tell if someone is or isn't ill just by looking at them. For a mentally ill person to be taken care of someone either must see the warning signs or they need to turn themselves in.

If someone has the cash...and they are mentally ill, they will get "help"....the key phrase is money. If no one sees the signs of mental illness, and the person does not turn themselves in because they know they are "not right"....that cash they have that could help them, will be used for other things. Sometimes it is spent on weapons.

It is not difficult to get insurances to cover people that are mentally ill....you just have to have the money to pay for it.

btw...guns don't kill people, people kill people.