"Vortex Based Mathematics by Marko Rodin"

Originally posted by Mary Rose

 

I don't need to justify myself.

No, Mary, you don't. Because all you deal with is stories.

Haramein, Rodin, Bearden... all of them only deal with stories.

Science is for people who want to get to the truth, who do care whether something can be justified or not, because they're creating something, inventing something, monitoring, predicting, healing,... in fact any position of responsibility at all.

The only people who don't need to justify themselves are story-tellers. They can do whatever they like, they can remain as ignorant and as bigoted as they wish, and they don't need to care one jot what effect their stories have on other people, so they never need to look outside their fixed little views at all. I can see the appeal. But when the stories are about insisting that they're reality, it really is a grimy little world.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


Talking of vacuum energy, I was thinking about it a bit more and figured the Casimir effect could be exploited, using a concept like this:

hubpages.com...

Shouldn't this work using two rotors with a sawtooth shaped in opposite direction? Since the force has just one direction (in contrast to for example magnets) there is nothing to stop it from turning. Is this theoretically possible? Are the dimensions just too small to create any meaningful shapes in practice? What am I missing?

I'm thinking on reading this book someday. I recommend that other people try it too.

Originally posted by -PLB-
reply to post by Arbitrageur

 

Talking of vacuum energy, I was thinking about it a bit more and figured the Casimir effect could be exploited, using a concept like this:

hubpages.com...

Shouldn't this work using two rotors with a sawtooth shaped in opposite direction? Since the force has just one direction (in contrast to for example magnets) there is nothing to stop it from turning. Is this theoretically possible? Are the dimensions just too small to create any meaningful shapes in practice? What am I missing?

Casimir effect results in net attraction of two bodies. This means when trying to separate these, you will have to do work. The proposed machine is a case of perpetual motion device. It won't work.

Originally posted by -PLB-
hubpages.com...

Shouldn't this work using two rotors with a sawtooth shaped in opposite direction? Since the force has just one direction (in contrast to for example magnets) there is nothing to stop it from turning. Is this theoretically possible? Are the dimensions just too small to create any meaningful shapes in practice? What am I missing?

Buddhasystem is right. It could be viewed as an attractive force like gravity, though the two plates are actually being pushed together.

In that respect it's a variation of this concept for a perpetual motion machine that uses gravity:
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/c35256af7e24.png[/atsimg]
The inventor thought you could somehow utilize gravity to pull down the right side as more torque is created with the greater radius. But no matter what you do, gravity is still pulling on the left side too, there's no way to escape that.

You have the same problem with the casimir effect on the pinwheel. Whatever torque you get in one direction of rotation is going to be balanced by an equal torque in the opposite direction.

reply to post by 547000

reply to post by Arbitrageur


Maybe it is just the wrong idea I have of the Casimir effect. Take a look at this conceptual drawing from wikipedia:

upload.wikimedia.org...

So the Casimir effect only takes place between the plates and nowhere else. Now take the following experiment:



First you have two plates apart. There are both large and small particles between them:
1)
.o.o.o.o.o.o.o.o
.o------------.o
.o.o.o.o.o.o.o.o
.o.o.o.o.o.o.o.o
.o------------.o
.o.o.o.o.o.o.o.o

Then the plates move closer because of the Casimir effect and work is performed. Now only small particles are between them:
2)
.o.o.o.o.o.o.o.o
.o------------.o
.o..................o
.o------------.o
.o.o.o.o.o.o.o.o

Now move the plates apart sideways:
3)

.o.o.o.o..o.o.o.o.o.o
------------.o.o.o.o
.o.o.o.o......o.o.o.o
.o.o.o.o------------
.o.o.o.o.o.o.o.o.o.o

And I guess this is the step where my understanding fails. Why is the work required to move the plates sideways in (3) equal to the work that moved the plates together in (1)? Right on the edge there is more than enough room for large particles so there isn't any attraction there. It seems to me the plates should be able to move freely. Or is this whole particle visualization wrong? I can't really wrap my mind around this.

Originally posted by Bobathon

Originally posted by 547000
I'm thinking on reading this book someday. I recommend that other people try it too.

Link was blocked, but I think you mean this.

Bull#ting, as he notes, is not exactly lying, and bull# remains bull# whether it's true or false. The difference lies in the bull#ter's complete disregard for whether what he's saying corresponds to facts in the physical world: he "does not reject the authority of the truth, as the liar does, and oppose himself to it. He pays no attention to it at all. By virtue of this, bull# is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are.

Yeah, thanks. Described Rodin and his ilk quite well.

reply to post by -PLB-
I could have been a little bit more clear.

In the perpetual motion machine example I gave, as well as the sawtooth Casimir effect machine, you can get some motion briefly, and you illustrate that if I understand your illustration correctly. But the effect is quite analogous to taking a car at the top of a mountain, and letting it coast into the valley. Yes you can get there with no fuel. The sawtooth Casimir effect is the same, it's like going from the mountaintop to the valley.

That works in both cases.

The problem lies in getting from the valley to the next mountaintop. That's where the concept fails. The force only works in one direction. The pinwheel design, even if it could induce the Casimir effect and I'm not sure it can, would have not have any net torque in one direction or the other.

Originally posted by Bobathon
Link was blocked, but I think you mean this.

Most people are rather confident of their ability to recognize bull# and to avoid being taken in by it.

Clearly, when some people are wading hip deep in BS without even realizing it, the confidence those people have is misplaced.

Too bad they can't get this technology perfected:

The following image came from this now-dead link
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/2502b9330b46.jpg[/atsimg]

But they haven't really perfected lie detectors, either. Maybe someday we'll have working lie detectors and BS detectors. In the meantime, I suspect that the people who probably need to read that book the most, probably won't read it, but that's just a guess.

It's interesting that the author says in the video that we tend to be less tolerant of liars than bull#ters, but perhaps we shouldn't. I'd have to agree.

Two of my favorite examples of BS claims aside from Rodin and Haramein, are the Kinoki foot pads that claim to suck toxins from the body and cure all diseases, and the thermal-auricular therapy also know as ear candling.

One of the scariest stories about how large a percentage of the population may be subject to falling for BS is this thread on ATS:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
ca.news.yahoo.com

ISTANBUL (Reuters) - Turkish police donned white coats and stethoscopes to disguise themselves as doctors, then knocked on people's doors to see how easily they would fall for a confidence scam.
The undercover police officers told residents of the southeastern city of Gaziantep they were screening for high blood pressure and handed out pills, according to Turkish media.
They were alarmed when residents at 86 out of 100 households visited on Tuesday swallowed the pills immediately.
Police later returned to warn residents to be more cautious.The police pills were harmless placebos.

86 out of 100 fell for that BS??? That is scary!!!

reply to post by Arbitrageur


I guess my illustration is not very clear then . What I don't understand is what force prevents the plates from sliding parallel to each other when they are affected by the Casimir effect. Since the effect is only between the plates and not past the edges, I can't think of any force that offers any resistance. Just to be clear, I don't expect to have discovered a perpetual motion machine, but I do hope to understand what is wrong with my reasoning.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur


Too bad they can't get this technology perfected:

The following image came from this now-dead link

The link isn't dead... it's just blocked by ATS. Click the link, then type the banned word in the place of the # in the URL. It looks like a very useful gadget!!

I suspect that the people who probably need to read that book the most, probably won't read it, but that's just a guess.

Yup. People who think they're being taken in by bullsh1t don't go and buy books about it. They just stop being taken in! The only people who are taken in are the ones who are so confident that they aren't being taken in that they refuse outright to contemplate that they might be.

It's interesting that the author says in the video that we tend to be less tolerant of liars than bull#ters, but perhaps we shouldn't. I'd have to agree.

Me too. We'd certainly benefit from being less tolerant of it in the political process.

The suggested direct link with consumerism (as a paradigm) is fascinating too.

86 out of 100 fell for that BS??? That is scary!!!

It is!

I wonder how many of them would be the sort of people who would see themselves as open-minded, and who would sneer at those who insisted on evidence before swallowing whatever they were given by the smiley man at the door.

Mentioning no names, of course...

Originally posted by -PLB-
What I don't understand is what force prevents the plates from sliding parallel to each other when they are affected by the Casimir effect.

I like the question. Looking for the cause instead of just describing the effect.

Originally posted by -PLB-
reply to post by Arbitrageur

 

What I don't understand is what force prevents the plates from sliding parallel to each other when they are affected by the Casimir effect. Since the effect is only between the plates and not past the edges, I can't think of any force that offers any resistance. Just to be clear, I don't expect to have discovered a perpetual motion machine, but I do hope to understand what is wrong with my reasoning.

I like the question too.

Let's do it!

A conceptual idea of what's going on won't be possible without the full QFT treatment, because it's a QFT phenomenon. The only thing that will give definitive answers is QFT itself, and I'm not sure I could do all the details. But one thing is for sure – there are significant effects at the edges. So the logic that there can't be forces resisting parallel motion doesn't hold.

Notwithstanding that disclaimer, it's definitely possible to get an answer for the force. First question, what is a force?

In a system where there is a conservative potential energy, the force is equal to the gradient of the potential energy. What that means is simply that it takes work to give something energy, and doing work requires a force; and if a system is free to decrease its energy on its own then it will drive itself in that direction.

For example, if a ball can roll down a hill (lower its potential energy), it exerts a force on anything that prevents it from doing so, and it requires an external force to push it up the hill (increase its potential energy). If a person kicks a ball, the ball is compressed (increasing its potential energy) and a force is present on the ball simply because the ball can lower its potential energy by moving in a direction away from the foot and returning to its round shape. The ball experiences a force away from the foot.

Whenever a system's energy would decrease if it moved in a certain direction, that is experienced as a force pulling it in that direction. At the most general level, wherever it's reasonable to neglect frictional effects, that is what a force is. (And when there are frictional effects, they can only increase resistance.)

So the first thing is to think about that for a bit, because it's not what most people think about when they imagine forces – but it's undeniably the case.

The Casimir energy is given by Casimir's formula which is –(h-bar)c(pi)^2/(720 a^4) per unit area when the plates are separated by distance a.

We don't need the details – we can just call it –K per unit area, where K is some number that we could work out if we wanted to. If we're sliding plates parallel, this number will stay constant. That's all we need to know.

So if the area between the plates is A, potential energy is –K A.

Here's the thing: if you slide the plates parallel to each other, the region within which the Casimir effect is taking places shrinks. So A is decreasing. As a result, the potential energy –K A gets less negative. In other words, the energy of the system increases.

Sliding the plates parallel to each other increases the potential energy of the system, because the Casimir energy is negative and proportional to area.

How does any general system respond if you attempt to increase its energy? It exerts an opposing force. The force is inherent to the system, as it is to any system whose energy could decrease by moving in a particular direction. You try to slide the plates apart, it pulls itself back. It's very clear.

We can even put a value on the force. If the plates are 5m x 5m, then for every metre you slide the plates, A decreases by 5 m^2, so the energy increases by 5 K. The force is the change in potential energy per unit distance moved, so it's 5 K. In general, there will be a parallel force of K multiplied by the width of the plate, and that force will be pulling them back into full alignment.

I think perhaps you want to visualise what is causing this force in classical terms, and I'm sorry but I can be pretty confident that there can be no straightforwardly intuitive answer to that, as it's not a classical effect. But one thing is undeniable: if you slide the plates parallel to each other, you're still sliding them apart – there's no getting out of it!

Originally posted by Bobathon

Originally posted by -PLB-
reply to post by Arbitrageur

 

What I don't understand is what force prevents the plates from sliding parallel to each other when they are affected by the Casimir effect. Since the effect is only between the plates and not past the edges, I can't think of any force that offers any resistance. Just to be clear, I don't expect to have discovered a perpetual motion machine, but I do hope to understand what is wrong with my reasoning.

I like the question too.

Let's do it!

A conceptual idea of what's going on won't be possible without the full QFT treatment, because it's a QFT phenomenon. The only thing that will give definitive answers is QFT itself, and I'm not sure I could do all the details. But one thing is for sure – there are significant effects at the edges. So the logic that there can't be forces resisting parallel motion doesn't hold.

I think both of you missed the point of my analogy that the car can roll from the mountaintop into the valley with no gas, so that part of the trip is as much "free energy" for the lateral Casimir efffect as for the car example. The problem is, how do you get the car back to the top of the next hill? You have to give back the energy you extracted when it rolled into the valley, and due to small frictional losses in the car, it never makes it to the top of the next hill. So the car ends up in the bottom of the valley.

Experimental results of the lateral Casimir effect show it works exactly the same way, in fact here's a picture of the hills and valleys of lateral forces which translate from the real hills and valleys on the material corrugation, from the experimental data:

Demonstration of the Lateral Casimir Force

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/a5d76b7d165e.png[/atsimg]
If you don't understand what that graph is saying (I'm sure you do bobathon, but others might not), it reads exactly the same way as the graph of a car in neutral on a series of hills and valleys. If you stop the car anywhere besides the exact bottom of one of the valleys, there will be a force on the car that will cause it to roll to the bottom of the valley. Once it gets into the valley, how do you get it out? There's the reason PLB is looking for, the "cause" of why it won't work. Cars don't roll uphill.

This graph is showing exactly the same thing with the lateral Casimir effect. Try to move the car up the hill to the right and a force pushes the car back to the left. Try to move the car up the hill to the left and the force pushes the car back to the right. The "force valley" on that graph is showing effectively the same thing.

Yes you have to use a lot of complex math if you want to do a detailed analysis, but I don't see why you need to in this case unless your goal is to refine the details of Casimir effect theory which has been one of the outcomes of these experiments.

Now to address the pinwheel question. Refer back to the graph in this post. You can see the sinusoidal force curve matches the sinusoidal shape of the surfaces.

The measured lateral Casimir force is sinusoidal with a periodicity corresponding to the corrugation period.

So the observed Casimir effect seems to follow the sinusoidal waveform pretty well except for an anomaly at the X-axis origin, but it looks pretty good elsewhere. Now what is the lateral Casimir effect expected from the pinwheel design? It's a complicated analysis but it looks to me like the net force is probably a flat line. So I don't believe the pinwheel would generate lateral force like the experiment I cited above which generated a lateral force. But if you think you can demonstrate more clearly how you think the pinwheel would do that, feel free, but I'm not seeing it. And even if you do get any lateral forces from the pinwheel, it would be something like the periodic waveform in the graph above except the distance between the peaks and valleys would be determined by the angular distance between the radial curves of the pinwheel. But it would still have peaks and valleys and you'd get stuck in a valley.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

I think both of you missed the point of my analogy that the car can roll from the mountaintop into the valley with no gas, so that part of the trip is as much "free energy" for the lateral Casimir efffect as for the car example. The problem is, how do you get the car back to the top of the next hill? You have to give back the energy you extracted when it rolled into the valley, and due to small frictional losses in the car, it never makes it to the top of the next hill. So the car ends up in the bottom of the valley.

Experimental results of the lateral Casimir effect works exactly the same way, in fact here's a picture of the hills and valleys of lateral forces which translate from the real hills and valleys on the material corrugation

Yes, I was referring to flat plates, not corrugated ones – there's a force when flat plates are moved laterally.

I didn't spot the link to corrugated rotating disks. My apologies.

Arbitrageur is right – a pair of spirally-corrugated rotating disks are no more likely to give rise to perpetual motion in a Casimir arrangement as they would be in a gravitational field. It's no different to placing a teflon-coated spirally-corrugated disk on top of another one, and expecting them to slide over each other and begin to spin on their own because of gravity.

That's just obviously silly, though, surely?

I wonder why my post quoted in this reply by 547000 was labelled off-topic when it was a direct reply to this one. How does something right in the middle of a conversation come to be isolated as "completely off-topic"?

Not entirely rational here, are they.

Originally posted by Bobathon
I didn't spot the link to corrugated rotating disks. My apologies.

OK that explains it. I understand the context of your post much better if you missed that link and agree with what you said.

That's just obviously silly, though, surely?

As PLB said:

Originally posted by -PLB-
Just to be clear, I don't expect to have discovered a perpetual motion machine, but I do hope to understand what is wrong with my reasoning.

I think that statement acknowledges that there might be something silly about it but it's just asking for clarification on what that is. So I give PLB a lot more credit for asking the question, than I do Bearden, who rather than asking questions, is selling DVDs about similar mythical concepts that don't translate into reality.

Edit to add:
reply to post by Bobathon
Ignore the private message I sent you asking what you posted, I misread your post initially and found what you posted. This is probably the reason:
ABOUT ATS: Vulgarity and The Automatic ATS Censors

4.) You will not use profanity in our forums...

Circumventing the censors to provide a misspelled simulation of a curse word is simply not allowed.

Technically you didn't use vulgarity yourself but quoted someone else using it.

Since it's commercial site, there are commercial reasons for this moderating behavior. A site with excessive vulgarity could be blocked from some search engines as not family appropriate material. Since ATS would like to show up in as many search engines as possible and get more traffic that way, they have a financial interest in keeping the vulgarity level below a threshold that would get the site blacklisted from family-oriented search engine filters.

At least that's my guess, you could ask a mod for an explanation but I suspect the answer would be something like that. I even censored the caption of the picture I posted to try to comply with this part of the site rules

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

I think that statement acknowledges that there might be something silly about it but it's just asking for clarification on what that is. So I give PLB a lot more credit for asking the question, than I do Bearden, who rather than asking questions, is selling DVDs about similar mythical concepts that don't translate into reality.

Agreed.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


Nice post and analysis. The pinwheel contraption will be subject to a very similar periodicity, but effectively at a smaller amplitude because of relative helicity of the the two spirals -- the net distance is pretty constant but it's the overlap that varies.