Dangerous Speculation - An Open Call for Civility

I have just been reading the main forum posts about the AZ shooter being a member on this site. Since he seemed to have a sort of disdain for "secret societies" I thought it might be appropriate and sort of out of the way to discuss it here.

I think everyone here knows I am a Freemason (and probably seen as a Freemasonry Apologetic) but I was an ATS member first.

This forum (Secret Societies) seems to have a more intelligent and discriminating membership than many of the others on ATS, but sometimes it seems like it is the most un-civil.

I think it is incumbent upon us to remember civility and decorum in our quest to "Deny Ignorance". We all know deep down that the "Freemasonry Question" that has persisted for centuries will never be answered here. At best we can hope to debate in a spirited fashion.

There is no lack of passion on either side here, but passion is not an excuse for being un-civil. We shouldn't censor our beliefs or writings because we are afraid of persecution but we can conduct them in a manner which doesn't incite or inflame others.

Basically what I'm saying is I could die a happy man if I never saw another news item about people killing each other because "The Masons Made Me Do It" or God forbid another Johnny Depp movie about crazed prostitute killers.

What do you think? Sometimes things get nasty here when they don't have to.

He had a disdain for secret societys? I haven't heard that.

His postings here at best showed a general disdain for christianity...slightly...but a big beef with nasa.

He also had an issue with currency...and time...but who cares what he liked or disliked...the guy was a anti-hero and generally a useless mind.

As far as secret societys are concerned...well, this is a conspiracy website. A conspiracy website means people come here to learn secrets..which is the opposing philosoophy of a secret society, so there is bound to be some philosophical disagreement there just on principle. A person enjoys being a Mason, or a number of others because they are in a exclusive brotherhood that keeps secrets..not that even any of the secrets are overly interesting mind you, but the simple fact of willfully supressing knowledge can rub people the wrong way overall..and in a group wanting to deny ignorance, only knowledge counters ignorance...I am sure you catch the jist of what I am saying here.

reply to post by emsed1


Honestly, I've seen less civility in an Android vs iPhone comment thread on tech blogs than I've seen in a Mason vs anti-Mason thread on ATS, but I agree with what you're saying. The overall tendency towards internet intolerance is fueled by the anonymity that screen names give us. And some people just like to poke others to provoke a response. That's not always a bad thing, because it can get people to think for themselves rather than take things without question, but we have to be careful how it's done.

Case in point, when vcwxvwligen first came to ATS I, among others, constantly barraged him with complaints that he couldn't back up his posts; that a lot of the accusations he was making were not based on any demonstrable facts. But in the last month or two he's actually been quoting Masonic ritual. We pushed him to deny ignorance, and instead of being a conspiracy theorist using freemasonrywatch or crap sites like that, he's actually started doing his homework. The debates have been more enjoyable to me, because we're starting from the same place, or closer to it. I don't know that we'll ever actually agree on anything, still, but I admire his efforts to do the legwork and read primary source material rather than just rely on YouTube as the end-all-be-all like some people do.

As always, I'm reminded of the Entered Apprentice charge, which includes “…neither are you to suffer your zeal for the institution to lead you into arguments with those who, through ignorance, may ridicule it.” It's all too easy to get zealous in an argument with someone, yet trying to inform—to deny ignorance—is why many Masons are here on ATS.

reply to post by SaturnFX


Yep I understand what you mean, and honestly there are probably quite a few folks who enjoy the experience because they feel some sort of superiority from secrets.

reply to post by emsed1


The hate for the freemasons is so out of place here. The moto of the site is deny ignorance but there seems to be so much hate displayed by members on topics that they know nothing about. Nowadays a quick glance at some anti- , "truth" or "expose" site is what passes as being informed on a subject. I wonder how many of the "MASONS RULE THE WORLD THROUGH THE...." people have ever actually taken a welcomed step inside a lodge.
I do have to hand it to the masons though, those guys must just sit around and have a good time. I have never in my life met a disgruntled freemason or ex-freemason.

reply to post by SaturnFX


Depends on what news your watching, seems every channel has their own opinions on who to blame, or what the shooter believe in, it's pretty rediculous really

reply to post by Kayzar


And the irony is that the Freemason hate is ignorance and a general misunderstanding of TPTB conspiracy they are railing against. Ha!

Wow... I didn't realize I would make so many enemies by asking for civility. :-)

I think this forum will always lean toward the conspiratorial. After all why would people post here if there was no controversy?

I will admit too that I have been zealous at times on different subjects. In fact the only "Foe" I've had was a truther and I was so closed-minded that I wouldn't even consider his viewpoint.

Above all I think it's important to realize that debunking is NOT disinformation.

Hey, I love Jesse Ventura as much as the next guy, but sometimes that flavor of wild speculation (Meltzer, Alex Jones, et al.) give us "Gentlemen Conspiracy Theoristes" (blast from the past) a bad name.

Personally I'd like to see a lot more bashing of Col. Sanders and his wee beady eyes pushing his genetically-modified six legged chickens on the population from the grave.

reply to post by emsed1


If you ever goto a footie match like say with 100,000, are you the smae as every person in that stadium as you like the same team. No.

Like how wild loons try to say males are violent as they are just male and born with a penis, no they are not i am passive all my life, and i am male, like many other males.

The media, oh no, they say the person believed there was mind control. Yes there is mind control, what is there point?

Get it, we are individuals, and i care not for this mans crimes, but he still did them, no matter how much force someone applied to him to do it. Get it.

Media is garbage.

reply to post by emsed1


The problem is you probably like 90% have no idea what being civil is. So why are you asking others to be what you are not probably? If your a freemason even at bottom level your still a problem, as your part of there system.

These people no matter what you say drive society, and its because of them mankind is so much garbage today.

Originally posted by SaturnFX
He had a disdain for secret societys? I haven't heard that.

His postings here at best showed a general disdain for christianity...slightly...but a big beef with nasa.

One of his replies mentioned "secret societies" controlling the currency. I hate to admit this, but if you get past the nonsensical prose some of his points raise interesting questions.

That said I don't think any opinion about currency, language or literacy could ever justify violence.

I can even see where someone would be suspicious of an organization like Freemasonry if we actually had the assets and political prowess ascribed to us.

One important rule we have though, that has kept the integrity of the fraternity intact for so long, is the absolute ban on discussing politics or religious viewpoints in lodge. Those seem to be the two topics that divide people and cause overzealous behavior.

Has Freemasonry in the past been a source of political or religious revolution? Of course. Take a look at the minutes from the Green Dragon Inn in Boston on the night of the Tea Party and you can only draw one conclusion.

I don't know how it works in UGLE, but everywhere I've been in the US and the masons I've met seem to be in the words of Douglas Adams, "Mostly harmless."

Originally posted by andy1033
reply to post by emsed1

 

The problem is you probably like 90% have no idea what being civil is. So why are you asking others to be what you are not probably? If your a freemason even at bottom level your still a problem, as your part of there system.

These people no matter what you say drive society, and its because of them mankind is so much garbage today.

How would you define civil? And I'm not being sarcastic. I'm interested in your viewpoint. Have Freemasons been un-civil to you? If so I would say they were not conducting them with decorum that is required of us.

I also can't see how a group can drive society if society refuses to be driven. I agree that in recent times we have allowed governments to trample on us and strip away our rights but I also believe that at a core level it would be extremely difficult or even impossible to control a mind that refuses to be controlled.

Originally posted by emsed1
Personally I'd like to see a lot more bashing of Col. Sanders and his wee beady eyes pushing his genetically-modified six legged chickens on the population from the grave.

Haha! However, there will be no bashing of the Colonel, as he was also a Brother Mason!

Colonel Harland Sanders

Initiated: April 6, 1917
Demitted: February 27, 1920
Lodge No. 651 (Indiana), Henryville, Indiana
Passed: 1919
Raised: 1919
Courtesy to 651 (Indiana) by Clark 40 (Indiana)
Affiliated: October 27, 1953
Demitted: April 13, 1976
Hugh Harris Lodge No. 938, Corbin, Whitley County, Kentucky

Originally posted by emsed1

Originally posted by SaturnFX

That said I don't think any opinion about currency, language or literacy could ever justify violence.

I can even see where someone would be suspicious of an organization like Freemasonry if we actually had the assets and political prowess ascribed to us.

One important rule we have though, that has kept the integrity of the fraternity intact for so long, is the absolute ban on discussing politics or religious viewpoints in lodge. Those seem to be the two topics that divide people and cause overzealous behavior."

You see that's my problem with Secret Societies. Nobody outside of 'the fraternity' really knows what goes on, and that's probably what stirs up the hatred and anger in people. A general fear of the unknown usualy makes people feel uneasy, now throw in a few outlandish theories or beliefs and that pushes people over the edge. I can't just walk down the road to the local lodge, you know the one with the neon sign that says lodge open, come on in stranger and start shooting the breeze with the fellas. No, it doesn't work that way, not sure how it works, but it doesn't work that way. 'Deny Ignorance' is the motto here, and I respect that, but I have no respect or tolerance for people who are parts of secret societies whatsoever, as they are the types that deny and with hold information with reckless abandon. It's all pretty silly if you ask me. You want to be a part of something? Go to the Knights of Columbus, go volunteer somewhere and help someone that really needs it, go to your local church and help out, but go somewhere, take part in some secret ritual and talk about what we're going to with hold from the 'general population' this week, that represents the very bottom of stupid in my book.

My open call for civility? Can't we all just get along and live in a regular society? Let our government with hold the secrets for 'our own protection' or whatever the case may be, and leave it at that? Huh? What say all you Secret Society guys?

Originally posted by LegalAlien
Nobody outside of 'the fraternity' really knows what goes on, and that's probably what stirs up the hatred and anger in people. A general fear of the unknown usualy makes people feel uneasy, now throw in a few outlandish theories or beliefs and that pushes people over the edge.

Agreed.

I can't just walk down the road to the local lodge, you know the one with the neon sign that says lodge open, come on in stranger and start shooting the breeze with the fellas. No, it doesn't work that way, not sure how it works, but it doesn't work that way.

Actually, that's EXACTLY how it works. Masonic lodges aren't hidden—they've got signs. Maybe not neon, but they're clearly marked. And if you get closer, you'll probably see a smaller sign saying which lodges meet there what nights of the week. So really it IS as easy as walking in some time when members are there and shooting the breeze with the fellas. We may even give you a full tour and serve you dinner!

'Deny Ignorance' is the motto here, and I respect that, but I have no respect or tolerance for people who are parts of secret societies whatsoever, as they are the types that deny and with hold information with reckless abandon.

And just what kinds of secrets do you think we're keeping from you? What information are we withholding? What teachings or knowledge can we impart that you couldn't find in your own church, or in the philosophy section of any bookstore, or on the internet at sacred-texts.com or similar sites?

It is no secret that I am a Mason. I wear a ring, and a lapel badge. The wallpaper on my office and home PC displays Mason symbology. I am not hiding my membership, I display it. Why? Because it is no secret.
Yes, things go on behind closed doors, just as they do in commerce, banks, Churches, peoples homes,
Ad El......................

Every club, society and institution has secrets of some description. Heck, even the scouts.

I have no desire to take over the world, or other peoples lives, goodness, I have enough trouble with my own. Why would I want your problems too?

True, not everybody believes in the same thing, that is what makes us special, unique. I respect other points of view and beliefs, I wish others would do the same.

I have my life and you have yours. I do not diss you because you buy your gas from a BP garage.

Let us just all live in peace instead of each others throats becuase we open our eggs in a different manner.

reply to post by LegalAlien


I don't belong to Knights of Columbus, but talking to some of them it sounds like their principles and rituals are nearly identical to ours.

I was trying to remember my perception of Freemasons before I joined. If anything I think the apron thing seemed weird to me.

Originally posted by JoshNorton

And just what kinds of secrets do you think we're keeping from you? What information are we withholding? What teachings or knowledge can we impart that you couldn't find in your own church, or in the philosophy section of any bookstore, or on the internet at sacred-texts.com or similar sites?


I believe that the masons, and other secret societies have another agenda. A shadow government, a new world order, a one world government, etc etc. I think the fact that the organization being shrouded in mystery and secrecy is even more damning in that it leads people to speculate with the sky being the limit. Sure banks, scouts, whoever else have there secrets. Heck I worked in a car dealership, they have there fair share of secrets as well. But none of these fraternities are as involved or close guarded as secret societies are. Think about it, A secret society, it's not like a boys and girls club. A secret society is just that. But why have it? Say it out loud, Secret Society. Just the words themselves take on an elitist mindset of their own. In this day and age Secret Societies have no purpose, in my most humblest opinion. And at the end of the day Lone Archer you're correct, we each have our own lives, and they are ours to do with whatever we please. And if being a member of some secret society, having something up on your fellow citizen, or formulating a scheme or a way to control the innards of the world through a fraternity of some type is your way of living, then live it. We can all agree to disagree. This isn't even my section, I just wandered here after an article in this section caught my eye. Now I'm going to mosey on over to UFO's and marinate there for a little bit, because that's what makes me work. Thanks for letting me say my piece, again I don't intend to come off ignorant, mean or ugly. I just have a severe disdain for anyone that thinks that they're better then anyone else, and especially if they go so far out of their way as to join a society dedicated just to that. Thank you and God Bless!

PS—Emsed, I thought that the aprons were just added for dramatic effect on the TV shows about you guys? It would definitely weird me out also.

reply to post by LegalAlien


Nope the aprons pretty much define who we are. We pretty much only wear them during lodge meetings though.

When I actually joined and learned what they were about, though, it was kind of cool. I will post the Apron Lecture below, which is pretty much the same from lodge to lodge. (Each state has it's own Grand Lodge and ritual. They are pretty similar but each state Grand Lodge is the governing body over that state's lodges. Unfortunately that's as high as a 'shadow government' could make it in the US anyway.)

This lecture in one form or another is recited to every new Entered Apprentice Mason when he receives his apron.

The coming years may bring to you success,
The victory laurel wreath may deck your brow,
And you may feel Love's hallowed caress,
And have withal domestic tenderness,

And fortune's god may smile on you as now,
And jewels fit for Eastern potentate
Hang over your ambitious heart, and
Fate May call thee ''Prince of Men,'' or ''King of Hearts,' '
While Cupid strives to pierce you with his darts.

Nay, even more than these, with coming light
Your feet may press fame's loftiest dazzling height,
And looking down upon the world below
You may exclaim, "I can not greater grow!"

But, nevermore, O worthy Brother mine,
Can innocence and purity combine
With all that's sweet and tender here below
As in this emblem which I now bestow.

'Tis yours to wear throughout a life of Love,
And when your spirit wings to realms above
'Twill with your cold clay rest beneath the sod,
While breeze-kissed flowers whisper of your God.

O, may its stainless, spotless surface be
An emblem of that perfect purity
Distinguished far above all else on earth
And sacred as the virtue of the hearth,

And when at last your naked soul shall stand
Before the throne in yon great temple grand,
O, may it be your portion there to hear
"Well done," and find a host of brothers near

To join the angel choir in glad refrain
Till Northeast comer echoes come again
Then while the hosts in silent grandeur stand
The Supreme Builder smiling in command

Shall say to you to whom this emblem's given,
"Welcome art thou to all the joys of heaven."
And then shall dawn within your 'lightened soul
The purpose divine that held control-

The full fruition of the Builder's plan-
The Fatherhood of God-
The Brotherhood of man.

I don't think it's giving too much away when I say that the last lines of this poem hold the entirety of Freemasonry's secret.