Counter-apologetics 101

I tried to read this thread but my eyes glazed over somewhere in page 2.

But I do have one question. What is the point?

Why would anyone want to argue these things?

I really don't believe it is possible to ever "win" or "lose" an argument like this, which I'm guessing would be the only motivation to have the argument to begin with.

For the "I win!" feeling.

reply to post by Condemned0625

This is a thread for counter-apologetics, not theology.

Naturally, apologetics is going to include some theology. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

reply to post by Condemned0625


I was thinking last night Condemned, why don't you start with apologetical points and "refute" them instead of waiting for people to come and ask questions in this thread? That would probably be more productive.

Originally posted by Condemned0625
The purpose of this thread is to educate anyone who does not know how to counter religious/theistic arguments effectively

I do not understand how this is "not" religion, faith and theology material, I believe the mods decision to be quite accurate since you state it in the very title of the topic, then following with the "religious/theistic arguments" statement yourself.

but I offer my tip none the less... you need empathy, philosophy and self-awareness before you can begin to understand countering or supporting these type of debates, as I am finding out myself.

the philosophy of science plays a big role, but alot of web pages will only serve to confuse you with someone others beliefs.

formulate your own opinions from the inside... and see if they are logical/rational.

I haven't even been paying attention to this thread because it was ruined like my other one. I'd like a moderator to close this thread.

reply to post by Condemned0625


How was this thread ruined? Because it got moved into a forum that you don't like? Because posters were discussing things that you said? Because people didn't agree with you right off the bat? Please explain how this thread was "ruined".

I've actually been quite interested to see your "counter apologetics". Sadly, they've been non-existent while you wait for people to ask you questions. Why don't you do what I suggested and initiate the dialog yourself?

reply to post by octotom


This thread was ruined when guys like you came along to screw it all up, such as adjensen. I've also noticed that most of the people who start the arguments in my threads are christians. Is that a coincidence? Could be, but I think there may be another possibility. Ignorant people who blindly accept mythological concepts as "facts" are more likely to argue with nonsensical tactics that have no basis on rationality. I never have this problem with non-christians because they don't make the same stupid mistakes.

reply to post by Condemned0625

This thread was ruined when guys like you came along to screw it all up, such as adjensen.

Seriously? The thread got ruined when someone challenged your ideas? Cut me a break. If you can't handle someone challenging your ideas, you need to go find a different website.

I've also noticed that most of the people who start the arguments in my threads are christians.

Did you ever think that Christians would come by a thread like this where someone is proposing to do "counter apologetics"? The only other thread of yours I've ever seen is the one with that "predictions". I know that you think that I "screwed that one up", despite the fact that you were having a discussion with someone that, to the best of my knowledge isn't Christian, and I felt the need to retort what you were saying. You didn't take it that well, deciding to cry "off topic" when before hand you had no problem whatsoever discussing what was being discussed.

Is that a coincidence? Could be, but I think there may be another possibility.

No it's not a coincidence because no one has screwed up any of the threads that I've seen of yours. They get messed up in your mind when someone challenges you or they don't go in the direction that you want them to go in.

Ignorant people who blindly accept mythological concepts as "facts" are more likely to argue with nonsensical tactics that have no basis on rationality. I never have this problem with non-christians because they don't make the same stupid mistakes.

Ignorant, eh? I would wager that it's a very small group of people that call themselves Christians that believe "mythological concepts" blindly as you assert. The Christian faith isn't one that is to be accepted blindly. In the New Testament that is looked down upon. There is an entire book in the New Testament written by a man that was investigating the facts. The word that is used for the faith that Christians should have carries the connotation that one believes the facts.

Anyway, you need to buck up if you're going to try and do the faith/theological tango. We Christians aren't as stupid as you try and paint us.

Ridiculing those that don't believe the same as you is silly. Saying that someone is irrational because you don't agree with them is stupid.

Saying that a thread is ruined because you've been challenged shows that you're probably trying to get yourself into something that you're not really prepared for.

Now, I think that the idea that you have for this thread is good. Instead of just throwing your hands up or waiting for someone to come and ask you questions, you should be the one that is initiating the discussion.

Don't get upset if and when a Christian comes and defends their faith. Why should they just sit by idly while someone is tearing their belief system apart? You should welcome the discussion instead of shutting yourself in and only listening to those that agree with you. Who knows, you might even learn a thing or two.

The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.—Proverbs 18:17

reply to post by octotom


I might learn a thing or two? By reading the bible, I learned how absurd it is. That's what I learned. There is absolutely NO evidence for anything in that book, so don't be using a worthless little verse to support your opinion. All you've presented in your entire argument are opinions. If you're not as stupid as I think, then you should prove it to me by analyzing your belief system and realizing that no credible evidence exists to support it. Just because you believe something or "feel" it or read it in an altered copy of an ancient text doesn't mean it's true. Once you realize that, you've reached the first step towards becoming intelligent. If you cannot think critically about it, you are an ignorant fool in my eyes and I will brand you as an idiot whether you like it or not. When you start an argument with me, be prepared to get the same treatment in return, but it'll be ten times worse than what you did. Don't expect me to be a nice guy when you don't deserve it.

I think this video has a place in this thread.

Google Video Link

for any unbiased observer of course...

reply to post by Cosmic.Artifact


I think a lot of us, atheist and theist, are able to say that Zeitgeist is hogwash. Of course, that doesn't mean that Jesus is a historical figure. I've yet to see a single contemporaneous account of his existence. The same goes for a lot of characters of the Bible. There isn't any evidence for any character in the Hebrew scriptures that comes before David (though there is evidence of David, there's no evidence of the story of Goliath being more than a story or that he was a simple shepherd).

reply to post by Condemned0625


I do too have evidence for something in that book...very little, but it's at least a few things. There is evidence that King David existed.

There is a single powerful counter-apologetics tactic to employ against any Biblical literalist (it works in varying degrees depending on the subject for non-literalists):

"Please, provide corroborating evidence for your point"

Now, if this is a person who is a creationist, you could ask about all sorts of things. Male nipples make sense evolutionarily, but not in the light of the story of creation, which is just one example.

However, general skepticism is just the easiest way to counter an apologist. Do not lower the burden of proof for religion. Learn your logical fallacies, as some apologists love to toss them around. Just sharpen your general critical thinking skills.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Ouch? It's an incorrect statement. Any counter-apologetic statement would contain a level of philosophy, but not necessarily theology. Now, unless you're going to call Democritus a theologian...

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by Cosmic.Artifact

 

I think a lot of us, atheist and theist, are able to say that Zeitgeist is hogwash.

wow MIMS ! we agree on something... it's a start

reply to post by Cosmic.Artifact


Wow. That video does NOT have a place in this thread. I had to stop it at the 5 minute mark. They're talking about vague prophecies that can describe almost anything. A microchip in the hand being the "mark of the beast"? Give me a break. Sure, anyone who chooses to be beheaded will magically rise to "heaven" for refusing to accept an "evil" piece of nanotechnology. They're not going to force everyone to receive an implant in their hands. It's simply a technologically advanced device that is easy to use and more convenient than credit cards. Everyone will have a choice to pay for the cost and get one. Vague prophecies that talk about kings and chariots and trumpets are not evidence. My fiancée's dreams are much more accurate than the holy babble and I've actually seen their fulfillment. I have seen absolutely nothing to support any biblical claims. If the book is so special and exclusive, why do muslims believe their koran is absolutely true? They are convinced that their religion is accurate and they even post videos just like that one, trying to "prove" it with scriptural arguments that have no basis on evidence and cannot be demonstrated as facts.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


There is evidence for a few minor things in the book, but the rest are supernatural claims that are impossible by definition. I find miracles to be the most hilarious concepts ever invented. Science can explain everything, including "miracles". Everything in existence can be scientifically analyzed and explained, no matter what it is.

reply to post by Condemned0625


well I suppose you are not an open-minded unbiased observer then ?

I watched both films... Zeitgeist and Zeitgeist Refuted, they both make interesting points.

linear is not good, and fact is your friend, remember that