Aliens and ufos.

I've been thinking about making a post like this for a long time, and today is the day. Let me point out that this is not a rant, neither is ment in an insulting way. It's just my conclusion regarding aliens and ufos.

I do not think aliens or ufos exist.
In my opinion, to "think" is all it takes to come to the inevitable conclusion that aliens simply can not exist. At least not in our solar system/reach/vision.
I will explain myself:

1. Distance

No matter how fancy your technology is, crossing a distance means spending time doing so. The max speed in this universe is the speed of light. If they came here with the speed of light it means:

- Light itself travels as fast as they did, in other words, we can see them. (the "light" from where they come from, reaches us, just like they do)
- Even with lightspeed, it still would take years and years to get here. (unless they have their secret station on Mars, but that's very unlikely)
- Travelling at the speed of light does not really fall into the "sneaky actions" category, ufos travelling to earth with the speed of light are likely to be noticed, because of the enormous amounts of energy required.

2. Motivation
If we ignore the entire distance problem, and simply look at the whys, stuff starts looking pretty impossible as well:

- If these aliens were really "smart enough" to create the supreme technology needed to get here, why are they not smart enough to realize we have nothing to offer them?
- If they spend years and years flying here, why would they just give some of us a glimpse of their spaceships, to fly away again?
- If they are this smart they would have let their intentions know to us ages ago.

3. Common sense
- Entering the atmosphere of the earth can not be done without being noticed with the naked eye as a flaming fireball by people on earth, unless done at very low speed, requiring an amount of energy that would have the same effect anyways.
- Stealthing is possible up to a point, but stealthing has to do with using the weak points of a type of radar/detection system, to stay unseen. Stealthing your way through all types of radars/detection systems in existance, including the human eye is not very unlikely, it's impossible.

I could go on for quite a while, but I think i made my point.
Of course all "alien-fans" are invited to kick my arse, but please don't base all of your points on "their technology", as such arguements are not provable, neither debunkable.

[edit on 7-7-2004 by Jakko]

1. Distance - Not significant, IMO. UFOs have been documented by the United States government on several occasions. Some of which defy any natural explanation much as the 701 "unknown" cases in Project Blue Book exemplify. There are also cases that never made it into Blue Book that defy standard explanation such as the 1965 Edwards AFB incident and the 1980 Bentwaters/Woodbridge AFB incident. UFOs have a documented, physically real presence. If any are ET piloted, figuring out how they got here does not need to be examined. The problem is figuring out if any are ET constructed and piloted, which some evidence does point to such as Bob White's UFO artifact that has an extraterrestrial metal isotope percentage within it.

2. Motivation - This is also insignificant, IMO. This time being that ET psychology is unknown to comptemporary science and thus it is an unknowable unknown. Speculation can surely be put in its place, but its still purely speculation using anthropomorphism to give a human understanding of why something happens when real life never works that way. Things happen and are happening that have never required human thought to explain their purpose. If ETs are coming here, then they are. Figuring out why they are coming here should be done after their existence is solidified in contemporary thought.

3. Several fireball UFOs have been documented throughout the decades. June 2004 was a month full of odd "meteor" sightings of fiery objects falling to earth, but for the most part having zero traceable impact zones. A video of a fireball-type UFO in recent years can be viewed at the below link:

Norway fireball UFO video

There are also 1,662 fireball UFO sightings on the citizen UFO reporting database at NUFORC.org. From the shapes listed, fireball is one of the most common types. However natural phenomenon cannot truly be removed from speculation as to what these objects are due to their similarities.

www.nuforc.org...

As for "stealthing" and maintaining an undetectable presence on the planet, that is not the case either. If citizens see them, our governments do as well and there are multiple cases of citizen reports of military jets chasing after UFOs as well as air traffic controller reports of watching very illogical radar blips fly around their posts. Several UFO cases such as the 1952 UFO flap over Washington D.C. and the 1965 Edwards AFB case involved radar returns. Not to mention the most recent March 2004 Mexico UFO video where radar returns were registered.



UFOs are a documented reality whether some are ET constructed and piloted or not. Something is in the air. Whenever our governments finally open up and tell us exactly what they consist of is an issue that may never be resolved.

[edit on 7-7-2004 by heelstone]

You should go to Mkaku.org he is a brilliant theoretical physicist and has some interesting ways a civilization could travel vast distaces.

Motivation- could be as simple as resources or running out of space (no pun intended) where they are from.

By the way I am actually on the middle on the fence of this issue and most times I tend to lean to your point of view. With that said I also believe anything is possible.

[edit on 7-7-2004 by swordfish]

Well about the speed of light. Read this link www.space.com... _000719.html , it is an experiment, but it worked. And I am sure there will be other experiments that will be more successful.
Google for Speed of Light. You'll find lots of stuff.


Here is another link...
www.cnn.com...

[edit on 7-7-2004 by GEX]

[edit on 7-7-2004 by GEX]

If these aliens were really "smart enough" to create the supreme technology needed to get here, why are they not smart enough to realize we have nothing to offer them?

And why are you so sure we don�t have anything to offer? What do you know about their interests and needs?

What if humans discover a civilization in Mars, a less advanced civilization. Don�t you think we would visit them?

Gex:

The experiment produces an almost identical light pulse that exits the chamber and travels about 60 feet before the main part of the laser pulse finishes entering the chamber, Wang said.
Wang said the effect is possible only because light has no mass; the same thing cannot be done with physical objects.

Interesting link though.

IMO the UFO phenomenon has already been proven. As to whether these craft are piloted by alien entities is purely speculation.

We cannot even begin to suppose what alien motivations would be IF they were to visit Earth. "Good" and "Evil" are human concepts so we cannot even begin to guess as to what might motivate "them". We can only speculate based on what we learn from sci-fi novels, comics, cartoons, tv shows, movies and other sci-fi geeks.

I would like to point out that the whole "man deprecating mankind" thing gets very old. Assuming a possibly superior being would have nothing to learn or receive from an inferior species is childish. We do this all the time within our own world. Who's to say alien entities visiting Earth aren't anthropologists or archaeologists? Of course, that's speculation but to assume a superior being would have nothing to do with an inferior race is incorrect.

I hate it when scientist say that the aliens could not get here because of the long distances that is so ignorant just cuz we cant do it don't mean nothing who though 200 years ago we would go to the moon and go to mars and fly ant mach 10 or do anything else we have accomplished these aliens might have gotten a million years head start in evolution so they are ahead of us.

Originally posted by Sinobyte
IMO the UFO phenomenon has already been proven. As to whether these craft are piloted by alien entities is purely speculation.

Proven?
It's not proven at all.

We cannot even begin to suppose what alien motivations would be IF they were to visit Earth. "Good" and "Evil" are human concepts so we cannot even begin to guess as to what might motivate "them".

Your position towards another being positive, negative or neutral is not just a human concept.

Assuming a possibly superior being would have nothing to learn or receive from an inferior species is childish.

That's not my point. Do the efforts of flying this many lightyears, get justified by what they get out of this?

There are so many ways all of the "ufo proof" could be explained, without suggesting it came from another solar system X lightyears away.
It's just very very unlikely that this is true, because if it were true, the world would not still generally regard aliens and ufos as fairytales.

A UFO is an unidentified flying object, and being from an alien species is not a requirement to become a UFO. Our own military produces many such flying objects quite often, and when they test them and don't tell us about them, when we see one, it is most definately a UFO, and they most definately do exist.

cheers,

StickyG

Originally posted by Jakko
Proven?
It's not proven at all.

There are a few undebunkable cases which prove UFOs are a reality. Such as the 2000 Illinois UFO incident. Read about it or not, I don't care, but facts are that this happened whether you think it did or not. Was it ET piloted/constructed? We don't know. The U.S. government remains silent on the issue which only helps promote ET speculation.

1. Distance

No matter how fancy your technology is, crossing a distance means spending time doing so. The max speed in this universe is the speed of light. If they came here with the speed of light it means:

- Light itself travels as fast as they did, in other words, we can see them. (the "light" from where they come from, reaches us, just like they do)
- Even with lightspeed, it still would take years and years to get here. (unless they have their secret station on Mars, but that's very unlikely)
- Travelling at the speed of light does not really fall into the "sneaky actions" category, ufos travelling to earth with the speed of light are likely to be noticed, because of the enormous amounts of energy required.

This is of course, assuming they are using point A to point B travel. Most evidence seems to support the idea that instead they use some kind of gravity drive to bend and warp space/time, thereby making travel time a non-issue...as it'd be instantaneous. This also explains the next points, as you don't need a lot of motivation for an instantaneous trip, and it would resolve the problem of atmospheric entry... Indeed, many of the attributes of observed UFOs (whether you think they are spaceships or human created objects) can be explained by this kind of a drive (in theory).

2. Motivation
If we ignore the entire distance problem, and simply look at the whys, stuff starts looking pretty impossible as well:

- If these aliens were really "smart enough" to create the supreme technology needed to get here, why are they not smart enough to realize we have nothing to offer them?
- If they spend years and years flying here, why would they just give some of us a glimpse of their spaceships, to fly away again?
- If they are this smart they would have let their intentions know to us ages ago.

What does a gorilla have to offer a human? Yet Jane Goodall spent months with them... This is hardly an arguable point, especially when dealing with an "alien" intelligence, which by it's very definition, may not be thinking of human terms. Also, when taking the "years and years to get here" factor out of the equation, it becomes a much easier issue to answer.

3. Common sense
- Entering the atmosphere of the earth can not be done without being noticed with the naked eye as a flaming fireball by people on earth, unless done at very low speed, requiring an amount of energy that would have the same effect anyways.
- Stealthing is possible up to a point, but stealthing has to do with using the weak points of a type of radar/detection system, to stay unseen. Stealthing your way through all types of radars/detection systems in existance, including the human eye is not very unlikely, it's impossible.

Interesting, and just how many vehicles have you noticed returning this way? Personally, though I know that space shuttles have returned to Earth often, I've never SEEN one in re-entry.... The world is a big place... Our radar/detection system isn't fullproof (especially if the gravity drive is factored in, as the waves would be warped along with space/time and give no return), and there are accounts of such detections, and even missiles fired, at unidentified targets in space.

Originally posted by heelstone
There are a few undebunkable cases which prove UFOs are a reality. Such as the 2000 Illinois UFO incident. Read about it or not, I don't care, but facts are that this happened whether you think it did or not. Was it ET piloted/constructed? We don't know. The U.S. government remains silent on the issue which only helps promote ET speculation.

Yeas that happened all right, but it most likely is a military plane, possibly a TR-3.

Check out
robocat.users.btopenworld.com...

At any rate, distance would indeed be a travel problem, IFF they used a propulsion system, even a really good one. No an advanced civilisation couldn't get here with those means, rather, as Gazrok pointed out, it could very well reach a technological state whereby travel could be done by other, non-conventional means..

Originally posted by Peronemlin

If these aliens were really "smart enough" to create the supreme technology needed to get here, why are they not smart enough to realize we have nothing to offer them?

And why are you so sure we don�t have anything to offer? What do you know about their interests and needs?

What if humans discover a civilization in Mars, a less advanced civilization. Don�t you think we would visit them?

I do think we would visit them. But, don't you think we would make it known?

Originally posted by senshido

Originally posted by heelstone
There are a few undebunkable cases which prove UFOs are a reality. Such as the 2000 Illinois UFO incident. Read about it or not, I don't care, but facts are that this happened whether you think it did or not. Was it ET piloted/constructed? We don't know. The U.S. government remains silent on the issue which only helps promote ET speculation.

Yeas that happened all right, but it most likely is a military plane, possibly a TR-3.

You have just contradicted yourself. You insisted there was no proof of UFO's, yet you could not positively identify the object presented to you in the link above. You simply speculated. By speculating you are proving that the object is unidentified. That would make it a UFO. You seem desperate to deny the existence of UFO's because they may somehow prove the existence of aliens and alien visitation but honestly, that's the furthest thing from the truth. Years before the Stealth was unveiled, there was numerous UFO reports about it due to their test flights. It was a UFO until it was identified.

Jakko, I can understand you desire to think critically and be skeptical but UFO's are a fact. The UNIDENTIFIED in UFO doesn't mean "alien". It simply means it hasn't be identified. Whether a UFO is created by atmospheric conditions, military testing, basic aviation craft or hallucinations. Vehemently denying the possibility of UFO's tends to lean on the "ignorance" side. You might want to reevaluate what you continue to deny.

I believe in the possibility of extraterrestrial life elsewhere in the universe. I don't believe in their contacting humans nor have I seen hard evidence to support visitation, but UFO's cannot be denied.

I partly agree Sino.
When I say I do not believe in UFO's I am talking about ships built by aliens flying around. Of course the theoretical defenition of a UFO is an unidentified flying object. And of course we have loads of those.
I just don't think they came from outter space.

I also don't think there are other lifeforms in this universe.
If there would have been other lifeforms, I think we would have allready noticed them through our telescopes.

ok jacko

i know youre a religious person and that god exists in your world , god sees everything , can do whatever he wants , can travel whereever he wants etc etc

now what if aliens are a step under god - why is it not possible that with years of evolution (god created us in his own image so therefore we should be able to grow pretty close to god ) that aliens could be classed as semi gods - what if aliens had some of the powers that god has and was able to cross the vastness of space?

why is it plausable that god can do anything , yet life on another world cannot travel space in your eyes ?

Lol acid you hit the point on what i have asked people who say stuff against alien possibilities and that they cant travel vast spaces and they still dont seem to agree so im with you

Originally posted by Jakko


2. Motivation
If we ignore the entire distance problem, and simply look at the whys, stuff starts looking pretty impossible as well:

- If these aliens were really "smart enough" to create the supreme technology needed to get here, why are they not smart enough to realize we have nothing to offer them?
- If they spend years and years flying here, why would they just give some of us a glimpse of their spaceships, to fly away again?
- If they are this smart they would have let their intentions know to us ages ago.


[edit on 7-7-2004 by Jakko]

LOL they have made their intentions know to us way long ago there has been the egyptian lore of a bright light and a "god" who just apeared from the sky to help them

Christianity there are many points in the bible which say somthing about a large light and then instantly they know somthing

too tired to explain it all the way so thats all i can say atm been awake 3 days in a row so yea... im tired

Originally posted by acidhead
why is it plausable that god can do anything , yet life on another world cannot travel space in your eyes ?

I know God exists, because I have seen Gods actions.
This has nothing to do with the practical problems regarding life from outer space, coming over to visit us, that I mentioned before.

Because I know God exist, I find it even harder to believe these "things" people see are from outer space. But that has nothing to do with this dicussion. There are enough "are aliens demons" topics allready.