Satan

reply to post by bogomil

As examplified most vividly amongst pentacostals. You know flayling of arms, floor-rolling on occasion, mumblings, moanings and yellings. Though there are also more silent manifestations. My own consisted of slightly rocking on my heels for 30-45 minutes.

Interesting... Any particular reason you felt the need to do this? Or perhaps it was involuntary?

Meditation, yes....chakras, hmmm.

Technically speaking it was my third eye, which also was 'opened' somewhere around that time. But that still doesn't make me convinced of chakras as such.

Ah, you said your "head" started buzzing... i assumed it was the top.

Im not trying to convince you of anything really... I believe they exist from what i've experienced, and still use that particular type of meditation to this day, and have for years.

And guess what... I ain't that bonkers!

Though some might disagree

And Gurdjieff said, that this will make you bonkers, which is an observation I also made when living together with a bunch of hindu'ist 'vibe-raisers' a year or so.

yes i've hear that as well... I have a friend who many consider "bonkers" who is "raise your vibrations" type... I think it really depends on the person you're dealing with.

Some also believe it can connect you with God... which also requires that individuals understanding of said "God"..."]

Which in the context of what fun you and I have together will consider a minor semantic problem.

Well in that case lets define it shall we...

God in my case being "everything"...

Meditation as in "listening to said everything"... quieting your mind. Focusing on just being...

But what happened to Satan here?

This being the reason i made this thread in the first place, i don't really believe "satan" exists though i am open to the possibility of my discription of said "evil nasty pitchfork dude' in my OP. As i've said at least "IF" angels and the devil exist, its illogical that they would turn against the one who "created" them... To me it would be similar to your goldfish trying to take over your house. Ye know?

reply to post by Akragon


You wrote:

["Interesting... Any particular reason you felt the need to do this? Or perhaps it was involuntary?"]

I didn't analyse it. It just felt like the thing to do. One of my fellow 'spiriters' always sounded as a jetplane and spread out his arms. He was quite pleasant though, when 'unspirited' (I like silence).

Quote: ["And guess what... I ain't that bonkers!"]

Trying to be funny and using a mix of glibness and christian 'logic', I'll say, that this only demonstrates, that you haven't raised your vibes high enough.

Quote: ["God in my case being "everything"]

Insofar I'll touch the concept 'god' with anything smaller than a ten-foot pole, 'god' is 'nothing'. Not as in semantic derogatively 'nothing', but as the something-nothingness described in asian semi-religions.

Quote: [" Focusing on just being... "]

An enigmatic, 'holier than you' "he, he" from me on 'focusing'.

Quote: ["This being the reason i made this thread in the first place, i don't really believe "satan" exists though i am open to the possibility of my discription of said "evil nasty pitchfork dude' in my OP."]

Apparantly there are a few areas, where I'm more 'believing' than you. I consider Satan as an option, only identities got mixed up in the propaganda-war, because Jahveh fits the job-description quite well.

Quote: ["As i've said at least "IF" angels and the devil exist, its illogical that they would turn against the one who "created" them..."]

I believe, that 'angels' just are perfectly natural para-normal manifestations of this cosmos, which for theist propaganda-reasons have been promoted to trans-cosmic beings.

Quote: ["To me it would be similar to your goldfish trying to take over your house. Ye know?"]

Yes, I know. But goldfish can be devious bastards it pays not to underestimate.

Originally posted by bogomil

Yes, I know. But goldfish can be devious bastards it pays not to underestimate.

edit on 23-8-2011 by bogomil because: spelling

ROFL
Mine would always jump outta the stupid tank.

Since you guys have all the denominational terminology down.
What the heck am I????? I see myself more spiritual but am I really.
I only know that I am not orthodox. Exspecialy now that I dont see
the god of isreal the same way.

LOTZA LUV & Thank both of you for all you're spiritual help.
On this thread and many others

reply to post by bogomil

I didn't analyse it. It just felt like the thing to do. One of my fellow 'spiriters' always sounded as a jetplane and spread out his arms. He was quite pleasant though, when 'unspirited' (I like silence).

Meaning you didn't question it, just blindly followed?

So you didn't say..."alright why am i rocking on my heels for whatever amount of time"

Or even, why am i following what these "spirited" people are telling me?

Trying to be funny and using a mix of glibness and christian 'logic', I'll say, that this only demonstrates, that you haven't raised your vibes high enough.

That might be a good thing if it drives you "bonkers"....no?

Insofar I'll touch the concept 'god' with anything smaller than a ten-foot pole, 'god' is 'nothing'. Not as in semantic derogatively 'nothing', but as the something-nothingness described in asian semi-religions.

Sure...

Quote: [" Focusing on just being... "]

An enigmatic, 'holier than you' "he, he" from me on 'focusing'.

Come on man you can do better then that...

Apparantly there are a few areas, where I'm more 'believing' than you. I consider Satan as an option, only identities got mixed up in the propaganda-war, because Jahveh fits the job-description quite well

Interesting...

If he (satan) is an option to believe, define that option...

Is he the king of this world?

Perhaps a spiritual entity?

Dude with a pitchfork that lives under the earth?

And are we talking about the propaganda war according to the bible or according to reality?

I believe, that 'angels' just are perfectly natural para-normal manifestations of this cosmos, which for theist propaganda-reasons have been promoted to trans-cosmic beings

Meaning they're no different then us, they don't understand their place in this universe... and they're more or less "lost"...

Yes, I know. But goldfish can be devious bastards it pays not to underestimate.

Ya so can a flea, but they wont' be taking over my house... even though they might post a nasty threat

reply to post by Akragon


You wrote:

["Meaning you didn't question it, just blindly followed?"]

That's the way of the participating observer doing field-work. You follow the flow until it delievers (or not), then you turn off the flow and THEN you analyze it. I'm not a desktop philosopher.

Quote: ["That might be a good thing if it drives you "bonkers"....no?"]

Amongst some native americans being bonkers gave you status. It's a question of value-systems.

Quote (on being enigmatic): ["Come on man you can do better then that... "]

But then it wouldn't be enigmatic anymore.

Quote: ["If he (satan) is an option to believe, define that option..."]

First: As you probably know already, my value-system is based on utilitarian philosophy (including utilitarian ethics), meaning that mankind creates its own functional values, which presently is best manifested in egalitarian .......etc. democracy. Bad guys are defined as 'ego-trippers', good guys as 'co-existers'. Jahveh is an authoritarian elitist ego-tripper. Lucifer (to be precise, not really Satan, the little gray bureaucrat) is a liberal freedom-fighter, which by the Jahveh-gang propagandistically is reduced to a terrorist. I don't buy into that propaganda.

If Lucifer is 'real' or not is a secondary question, it's the principles the character represents, which are my first concern.

Quote: [" Is he the king of this world?"]

Don't know. I haven't got all the insider information yet.

Quote: [" Perhaps a spiritual entity?"]

If 'real', probably just what generally is called 'paranormal'.

Quote: ["Dude with a pitchfork that lives under the earth?"]

Now..... WHO'S referring to the propaganda-machine.

Quote: ["And are we talking about the propaganda war according to the bible or according to reality?"]

I'm just one small field-researcher. I'm not a sage yet.

Quote (on 'angels'): ["Meaning they're no different then us, they don't understand their place in this universe... and they're more or less "lost"..."]

Momentarily accepting the premises of this perspective...yes.

Quote (on dangerous goldfish): [" Ya so can a flea, but they wont' be taking over my house... even though they might post a nasty threat"]

That's because you don't read fiction (if my memory serves me); in the wonderful world of observer-created reality (an optional perspective) there are all kinds of imaginatoriums.

And before you possible consider me evasive...remember that us philosophical scepticists have a dispensation to talk like this.

Originally posted by Akragon
I posted this in the wrong section replying to a thread which i didn't fully read...Again my appoligies... i finally found where it should have went so i'll copy and paste
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why don't we try to step out of the "religious box" and look at this Satan thing from a different angle. Realize that the bible was written in an age where free thought was considered Heresy. A time where the writings of a few men litterally dominated the spiritual ideals and beliefs of the world.

Logic had no place in this time....Now consider the idea of the "fallen angel"... Gods favorite most beautiful angel decided to rebel against him because of pride. Pride is a human condition, and thinking that an angel would be driven by a human condition isn't logical. If angels exist they are beings that are far beyond human emotions or even the so called "sins" that plague us. The bible was writen by man, not by God. So the writings are also subject to human inturpretations. For instance the "Great Flood" was thought by many to be a world wide flood, but its known now that it was a regional flood. Or even the exodus where moses parted the sea...its known now that the area that he crossed could be litterally parted with the right wind. Now im not saying it wasn't an act of God but im saying its logical, it could actually happen.

Consider the idea that Satan isn't a demon trying to end the human race or even enslave us (as if we arn't already) Lucifer is the "opposer' or the "adversary"...he isn't against God. This is human inturpretation and again illogical. How does one challenge the power of the creator, especially a being that must be intelligent beyond anything imaginable by human minds.

Even with the example where he tried to tempt jesus in the wilderness, he was simply doing his job. The very idea that an angel would attempt to overthrow the one who created him is just rediculous. The fact is (imo) lucifer works with God to tempt humans to not follow their spiritual path. To believe in materialism, selfishness, greed and hatered, because without faith and knowledge of the spirit theres no progression. IF theres no progression in your spiritual development you'll be comming back for another round in the cycle of reincarnation because you haven't learned your lessons.

Satan isn't against God hes one of his greatest allies! He's definately not on our side, but he doesn't want us to fail! His job is to make it as hard as possible to learn our lessons in this life. To tempt us to turn from God, and even believe there is no God, but just like any other angel he loves us and wants us to pass our tests.

So again human inturpretation from hundreds of years ago has no logical basis. People lived in fear of God and under extreme pressure from the so called "religious authorities" back when the bible was written. Anyone who went against what the churches said was true was killed. So you didn't have a choice in what you believe, at that point anything the head of the church said had to be true regardless of how logical it might have been.

Personally i find it hilarious that anyone would even consider an angel trying to overthrow God. It makes no sense what so ever. IF he created all that exists, how could an angel try to challenge him.

Your understanding of Satan is similar to the understanding of other sufis, such as Jalaluddin Rumi. In fact, Rumi wrote a poetry especially for Satan, called The Apology Of Satan. I quote (translated):

Iblis contends, “This was a game between lover and beloved. He commanded me to play and I played the predetermined hand of lover. Thus I did what I was destined to do and was made to accept His wrath. But I still remain His companion, friend and comrade.”

Satan was the best and was the most obedient, the most pious, with the deepest knowledge possessed. So the question would be - how could a being, having those kind of attributes, could be so arrogant? How could he be so stupid, as to do what he had done, knowing full well, the consequences? His action contradicted his attributes.

Or, did he do it on purpose, knowing very well that he was DESTINED to be condemned? And played his part well, solely because of his love for his One & Only creator?

Food for thought.

reply to post by Cerridwen


You're playing right up in Akragon's alley as a bhakti (with some different details though), and as it's always interesting to see the various models of trans-cosmic 'motivation' and internal policy-making, this could turn out to be above the usual 'yes, no' level.

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by Cerridwen

 

this could turn out to be above the usual 'yes, no' level.

It is actually a really interesting topic to discuss. It opens up one's mind to think out of the box and opens up new understandings. To meditate, on the road less traveled, will usually bring out more awareness and lifts up the veil that has blinded the eyes all this time. Thus, it definitely is NOT a black or white issue.

reply to post by Cerridwen


For some obscure reason, maybe doctrinal adherence, the 'bad guy' considerations are seldom deep-loding. Every version from various religions/semi-religions have their roles cut out and the 'blame' for the less attractive parts of existence (for 'complexity', e.g. biological life) is firmly defined.

Which is really strange, as e.g. 'suffering' is a subject approachable from several perspectives and could be a meeting-place for those seeking true syncretism. Only buddhism, jain and gnosticism have (to my knowledge) come up with sensible ideas on it.

And the bhakties with a useful pragmatic method, which goes a long way, but imo not all the way.

reply to post by bogomil

That's the way of the participating observer doing field-work. You follow the flow until it delievers (or not), then you turn off the flow and THEN you analyze it. I'm not a desktop philosopher.

So what was the point of this? Were you expecting God to appear, or perhaps a spirit of some sort?

Comming from a person that is very logical, i don't understand why you would follow someone such as...

You know flayling of arms, floor-rolling on occasion, mumblings, moanings and yellings.

I know one shouldn't judge another, but do you not think that might have been a "hint"

Amongst some native americans being bonkers gave you status. It's a question of value-systems.

Somehow i think that "bonkers" isn't a term they use... though they also used many different halucinogenics in their "spiritual doings" which do make you "bonkers" so to speak. I've never found anyone that meditates to suddenly become bonkers aside from my one friend, who already had issues.

But then it wouldn't be enigmatic anymore.

Lol, whats enigmatic about a "holier then tho haha"?

Perhaps i'll rebut your haha, with a not so enigmatic.....Heheheh. Mine has more letters

Focus grasshoppah, i out haha'd you by a simple "heh"

First: As you probably know already, my value-system is based on utilitarian philosophy (including utilitarian ethics), meaning that mankind creates its own functional values, which presently is best manifested in egalitarian .......etc. democracy. Bad guys are defined as 'ego-trippers', good guys as 'co-existers'. Jahveh is an authoritarian elitist ego-tripper. Lucifer (to be precise, not really Satan, the little gray bureaucrat) is a liberal freedom-fighter, which by the Jahveh-gang propagandistically is reduced to a terrorist. I don't buy into that propaganda.

en.wikipedia.org...

Sadly democracy does not represent this in its current state.... And im sure even amongst the "egalitarian" movement there are still "ego trippers"...as there are in every belief/political system.

And you didn't define Satan/Lucifer the entity(if he exists as a option), you more or less defined a belief system that you don't buy into.

If Lucifer is 'real' or not is a secondary question, it's the principles the character represents, which are my first concern.

Well you said lucifer was an option, so we'd have to assume hes real if hes an option to believe. Or are we just believing in fairytales and the morals and values they represent?

Quote: [" Is he the king of this world?"]

Don't know. I haven't got all the insider information yet.

alright....

Quote: [" Perhaps a spiritual entity?"]

If 'real', probably just what generally is called 'paranormal'.

Meaning a completely innocent by stander? A ghost? Can he be seen? Does "he" go around possessing people?

This is what i mean by "define that option'

Quote: ["Dude with a pitchfork that lives under the earth?"]

Now..... WHO'S referring to the propaganda-machine.

Me...but as you said Satan is a option to believe...

I'm just one small field-researcher. I'm not a sage yet.

So, you have as much information as anyone else... This is a character that basically rules many religious peoples lives. Many believe that this litteral creature is a force within the world, and influences people in various ways. If you believe this to be an option in reality, what is that option?

Quote (on 'angels'): ["Meaning they're no different then us, they don't understand their place in this universe... and they're more or less "lost"..."]

Momentarily accepting the premises of this perspective...yes.

Even though i present this perspective, its not one i actually believe to be true. Personally i believe "if" they exist, they must have a purpose.

Quote (on dangerous goldfish): [" Ya so can a flea, but they wont' be taking over my house... even though they might post a nasty threat"]

That's because you don't read fiction (if my memory serves me); in the wonderful world of observer-created reality (an optional perspective) there are all kinds of imaginatoriums.

Ah, you are quite right... Though i used to write plot/story lines as a "game master" in a few different online games. Though i don't enjoy "fiction" as entertainment, i do have quite the imagination.

And neither fleas nor Goldfish would be taking over my house....

And before you possible consider me evasive...remember that us philosophical scepticists have a dispensation to talk like this.

If you remember correctly when we met you tried to dazzle me with big words as well. To which i responded... "you might scare them off but you won't scare me"

Hopefully you know by now that you can't dance around me...

Originally posted by Cerridwen

Originally posted by Akragon
I posted this in the wrong section replying to a thread which i didn't fully read...Again my appoligies... i finally found where it should have went so i'll copy and paste
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why don't we try to step out of the "religious box" and look at this Satan thing from a different angle. Realize that the bible was written in an age where free thought was considered Heresy. A time where the writings of a few men litterally dominated the spiritual ideals and beliefs of the world.

Logic had no place in this time....Now consider the idea of the "fallen angel"... Gods favorite most beautiful angel decided to rebel against him because of pride. Pride is a human condition, and thinking that an angel would be driven by a human condition isn't logical. If angels exist they are beings that are far beyond human emotions or even the so called "sins" that plague us. The bible was writen by man, not by God. So the writings are also subject to human inturpretations. For instance the "Great Flood" was thought by many to be a world wide flood, but its known now that it was a regional flood. Or even the exodus where moses parted the sea...its known now that the area that he crossed could be litterally parted with the right wind. Now im not saying it wasn't an act of God but im saying its logical, it could actually happen.

Consider the idea that Satan isn't a demon trying to end the human race or even enslave us (as if we arn't already) Lucifer is the "opposer' or the "adversary"...he isn't against God. This is human inturpretation and again illogical. How does one challenge the power of the creator, especially a being that must be intelligent beyond anything imaginable by human minds.

Even with the example where he tried to tempt jesus in the wilderness, he was simply doing his job. The very idea that an angel would attempt to overthrow the one who created him is just rediculous. The fact is (imo) lucifer works with God to tempt humans to not follow their spiritual path. To believe in materialism, selfishness, greed and hatered, because without faith and knowledge of the spirit theres no progression. IF theres no progression in your spiritual development you'll be comming back for another round in the cycle of reincarnation because you haven't learned your lessons.

Satan isn't against God hes one of his greatest allies! He's definately not on our side, but he doesn't want us to fail! His job is to make it as hard as possible to learn our lessons in this life. To tempt us to turn from God, and even believe there is no God, but just like any other angel he loves us and wants us to pass our tests.

So again human inturpretation from hundreds of years ago has no logical basis. People lived in fear of God and under extreme pressure from the so called "religious authorities" back when the bible was written. Anyone who went against what the churches said was true was killed. So you didn't have a choice in what you believe, at that point anything the head of the church said had to be true regardless of how logical it might have been.

Personally i find it hilarious that anyone would even consider an angel trying to overthrow God. It makes no sense what so ever. IF he created all that exists, how could an angel try to challenge him.

Your understanding of Satan is similar to the understanding of other sufis, such as Jalaluddin Rumi. In fact, Rumi wrote a poetry especially for Satan, called The Apology Of Satan. I quote (translated):

Iblis contends, “This was a game between lover and beloved. He commanded me to play and I played the predetermined hand of lover. Thus I did what I was destined to do and was made to accept His wrath. But I still remain His companion, friend and comrade.”

Satan was the best and was the most obedient, the most pious, with the deepest knowledge possessed. So the question would be - how could a being, having those kind of attributes, could be so arrogant? How could he be so stupid, as to do what he had done, knowing full well, the consequences? His action contradicted his attributes.

Or, did he do it on purpose, knowing very well that he was DESTINED to be condemned? And played his part well, solely because of his love for his One & Only creator?

Food for thought.

I would not call this an understanding about "satan"... a logical perspective perhaps, as opposed to the usual Horn and pitchfork version.

reply to post by Akragon


You wrote:

["So what was the point of this? Were you expecting God to appear, or perhaps a spirit of some sort?"]

There was no 'god' implied, only the 'god' faction trying to make formalistic obligations. As to 'why', it's what euphemistaclly would be called 'research'. It would be hard to understand any religious, existential or similar system without including the applied practical part. I have been quite much around this way.

Quote (on flayling of arms): ["Comming from a person that is very logical, i don't understand why you would follow someone such as..."]

I have also been to a pentacostal ceremony a couple of times. These people REALLY can get lively.

Quote (on native american value systems): [" Somehow i think that "bonkers" isn't a term they use..."]

No, but social and personal anomalies had high regard in shaman qualifications, and shamans certainly had status.

Quote: [" Lol, whats enigmatic about a "holier then tho haha"? "]

Even amongst europeans, my humour is sometimes too chinese-box like. Don't worry about it. If I want to irritate you (which I don't), I'll make it clear.

Quote: ["Sadly democracy does not represent this in its current state.... And im sure even amongst the "egalitarian" movement there are still "ego trippers"...as there are in every belief/political system."]

We've been there before together, no need to rehash it here and now.

Quotes: ["And you didn't define Satan/Lucifer the entity(if he exists as a option), you more or less defined a belief system that you don't buy into."]

["Well you said lucifer was an option, so we'd have to assume hes real if hes an option to believe. Or are we just believing in fairytales and the morals and values they represent"]

I usually try to create 'as if' options (just like trying to predict possible situations in a chess-game), or say like having several possible hypotheses on a scientific question. IF I commit myself (as I do with egalitarian principles) I do it the usual way by stating the 'truth' I see in it.

Quote (on 'demons' as paranormal): ["Meaning a completely innocent by stander? A ghost? Can he be seen? Does "he" go around possessing people? This is what i mean by "define that option'"]

The same perceptual category as 'ghosts'. Such can be percieved by enhanced or extra senses (PSI), I believe 'demons' can 'possess' people. This is my subjective opinions, much based on personal experiences.

Quote (on Satan with a pitchfork): ["Me...but as you said Satan is a option to believe... "]

I never said anything about pitchforks.

Quote: ["So, you have as much information as anyone else... "]

As much as anyone else with a broad comparative basis. If it helps, I once met a 'pan', one of christianity's role-models for the medieval 'devil'. Quite nice little fella.

Quote: ["This is a character that basically rules many religious peoples lives. Many believe that this litteral creature is a force within the world, and influences people in various ways. If you believe this to be an option in reality, what is that option"]

An option isn't a conclusion. But I consider it likely, that there are paranormal entities messing with mankind.

Quote: ["Personally i believe "if" they exist, they must have a purpose."]

Mostly 'they' aren't very bright, their main motive is the usual...they are hungry, and human bio-energy is the 'food'.

Quote: ["If you remember correctly when we met you tried to dazzle me with big words as well. To which i responded... "you might scare them off but you won't scare me" Hopefully you know by now that you can't dance around me... "]

For quite a while I've had the impression, that we so to speak 'dance' together as you would in a folk-dance.

reply to post by bogomil

There was no 'god' implied, only the 'god' faction trying to make formalistic obligations. As to 'why', it's what euphemistaclly would be called 'research'. It would be hard to understand any religious, existential or similar system without including the applied practical part. I have been quite much around this way

I understand the evangelical movement but this isn't something i'd attempt to understand by participation...

I have also been to a pentacostal ceremony a couple of times. These people REALLY can get lively.

I'll bet...

Quote (on native american value systems): [" Somehow i think that "bonkers" isn't a term they use..."]

No, but social and personal anomalies had high regard in shaman qualifications, and shamans certainly had status.

Also beside the point, why would you believe one person's opinion of chakra meditation...

Chances are if this style of meditation did happen to drive someone "bonkers" they probably had a pre-existing condition.

Even amongst europeans, my humour is sometimes too chinese-box like. Don't worry about it. If I want to irritate you (which I don't), I'll make it clear.

Touche....if you wish to poo poo my "focus" concept...

We've been there before together, no need to rehash it here and now.

Fair enough...

I usually try to create 'as if' options (just like trying to predict possible situations in a chess-game), or say like having several possible hypotheses on a scientific question. IF I commit myself (as I do with egalitarian principles) I do it the usual way by stating the 'truth' I see in it.

Exactly what im looking for, though this "truth" can only be found through various scripture about said entity... Unless one plans on invoking "the devil" which is also subjective. If of course one choses to believe in such a practice. Personally i believe its very possible to invoke "demons" though that is a different topic.

SO what is your "truth" on the subject?

Quote (on 'demons' as paranormal): ["Meaning a completely innocent by stander? A ghost? Can he be seen? Does "he" go around possessing people? This is what i mean by "define that option'"]

The same perceptual category as 'ghosts'. Such can be percieved by enhanced or extra senses (PSI), I believe 'demons' can 'possess' people. This is my subjective opinions, much based on personal experiences.

I half agree, i do believe people can be "possessed" by entities, though its very possible its all in their imagination because of strong beliefs in said "demon" For example, i've seen "exorcisims" performed, though not in person. Something leads me to believe a good slap across the face would snap these people out of their little possession. But who knows..

I never said anything about pitchforks.

I didn't say you did, but why not throw it out there....

Quote: ["So, you have as much information as anyone else... "]

As much as anyone else with a broad comparative basis. If it helps, I once met a 'pan', one of christianity's role-models for the medieval 'devil'. Quite nice little fella.

Interesting....i would have liked to meet him as well.

An option isn't a conclusion. But I consider it likely, that there are paranormal entities messing with mankind.

I do consider anything "possible" though i "assume" its all in their head, simply because i've never had any experience in seeing anything paranormal. Belief is a very strong thing, and if one choses to believe in "evil" its quite possible it may "manifest" itself in your life. Personally, i believe "evil" does not exist, its mearly a man made concept...

Perhaps one day my belief may change.

Mostly 'they' aren't very bright, their main motive is the usual...they are hungry, and human bio-energy is the 'food'.

I've heard quite the opposite. In my studies i was introduced to the goetia and various magic(k) elements of study. I've read these entities are "superintelligent" simply because they are on a higher plane of existance then we are... Also you'll find that many say you should never "tempt" them, or be fooled by them, which apparently many of then enjoy trying to do. Its been a while since i've looked over this stuff, but its quite interesting. I've never worked up the courage to actually attempting to summon anything though. Just not my thing, i don't mess with what i don't understand fully.

www.themystica.com...

For quite a while I've had the impression, that we so to speak 'dance' together as you would in a folk-dance

Ahh quite true, though you can't rush off to the bar to get a drink in the middle of said folkish dancing song.

reply to post by Akragon


You wrote:

["Also beside the point, why would you believe one person's opinion of chakra meditation... "]

I don't 'believe' in Gurdjieff, I mentioned his optional answer. Besides I usually make my own evaluations on subjects also, I'm not really that enthusiastic about authority arguments. I have e.g. formulated my own cosmology (a kind of 'theory of everything'), from which I personally can relate to many aspects of existence.

Quote: ["Chances are if this style of meditation did happen to drive someone "bonkers" they probably had a pre-existing condition."]

That's likely, and besides there will probably be elements in such meditation-types, which for the wrong reasons will attract the wrong people. There's a parallel in 'religion-psychosis', where some individuals with big existential problems use a religion like a kind of 'medication' and end up overdoing it.

Quote: ["SO what is your "truth" on the subject?"]

I'm fairly convinced, that paranormal phenomena and other similar anomalies are more than just blown fuses in the mind. There is 'something' external...'real'...... taking place (as 'real' as heat, gravity and bricks). That this 'something' very often isn't beneficient/beneficial to mankind. That this 'something' is of such a constitution, that mankind can percieve (and interpretate) it practically any way. And that only a serious comparative study can lead to WHAT it is.

Quote: [" I half agree, i do believe people can be "possessed" by entities, though its very possible its all in their imagination because of strong beliefs in said "demon" For example, i've seen "exorcisims" performed, though not in person. Something leads me to believe a good slap across the face would snap these people out of their little possession. But who knows.. "]

These negative entities ('demons' in christianity) can't do this with everybody. The human victim must be will-less and without any significant amount of personal integrity. And hysteria can ofcourse be a sole reason sometimes.

Kind of relevant here is the saying: If you don't see 'them', 'they' don't see you. (For me this has been true demonstrated by experimentation).

Quote (about 'Pan'): [" Interesting....i would have liked to meet him as well."]

He was one of the few pleasant types, I've met. Generally I wouldn't recommend anyone to actively search for these paranormal experiences, I had spontaneously. I was scared out of my wits for 4-5 years after, and I don't scare easily about such.

Quote: ["I do consider anything "possible" though i "assume" its all in their head, simply because i've never had any experience in seeing anything paranormal. Belief is a very strong thing, and if one choses to believe in "evil" its quite possible it may "manifest" itself in your life. Personally, i believe "evil" does not exist, its mearly a man made concept..."]

Like you, I have never much believed in manifested 'evil' (with 'evil' as a 'real' principle), but rather in manifested stupidity or manifested predation. So my experiences weren't based on predisposed expectations of 'evil'.

Quote: ["I've heard quite the opposite. In my studies i was introduced to the goetia and various magic(k) elements of study. I've read these entities are "superintelligent" simply because they are on a higher plane of existance then we are..."]

I've met some 10-12 different species. Most rather dumb, and definitely not from 'higher planes'. The bright ones suffered from arrogance to a self-destructive extent.

Quote: [" Ahh quite true, though you can't rush off to the bar to get a drink in the middle of said folkish dancing song."]

When I'm involved in any 'folkish' acticities, there is always beer close at hand.

reply to post by bogomil

Quote: ["SO what is your "truth" on the subject?"]

I'm fairly convinced, that paranormal phenomena and other similar anomalies are more than just blown fuses in the mind. There is 'something' external...'real'...... taking place (as 'real' as heat, gravity and bricks). That this 'something' very often isn't beneficient/beneficial to mankind. That this 'something' is of such a constitution, that mankind can percieve (and interpretate) it practically any way. And that only a serious comparative study can lead to WHAT it is

I agree to an extent. There was a point where i didn't believe in "ghosts or spirits" but these days i tend to be open to any possibility. Who am i to say they don't exist when through out our history theres been millions of recorded insidences of people meeting spiritual entities.

A wise man once said "true knowledge is knowing you know nothing"... That might have been master fuji on Karate kid though

These negative entities ('demons' in christianity) can't do this with everybody. The human victim must be will-less and without any significant amount of personal integrity. And hysteria can ofcourse be a sole reason sometimes.

Kind of relevant here is the saying: If you don't see 'them', 'they' don't see you. (For me this has been true demonstrated by experimentation).

Right, though i admit i'd like to "see" something one day... at least something that i can't explain. This is why i got into the spirits of the Goetia, though i chickened out when it came to actually summoning these spirits. Not that i was afraid of them, more or less concerned with what "might" happen.

He was one of the few pleasant types, I've met. Generally I wouldn't recommend anyone to actively search for these paranormal experiences, I had spontaneously. I was scared out of my wits for 4-5 years after, and I don't scare easily about such.

Exactly my point... Though im curious.

Like you, I have never much believed in manifested 'evil' (with 'evil' as a 'real' principle), but rather in manifested stupidity or manifested predation. So my experiences weren't based on predisposed expectations of 'evil'

Personally i find "evil" to be an excuse for bad behaviour. So and so killed this person, he must be evil... Uhm, NOOOO, that person is selfish, and likely hates other people so much so that they felt the need to destroy what they hate. Theres always reasons for "evil" so to speak. And one persons evil may be anothers persons Good.

And in the rare case that such attrocities do not have an apparent reason, you can almost always look to that person's mental condition to find a reason.

I've met some 10-12 different species. Most rather dumb, and definitely not from 'higher planes'. The bright ones suffered from arrogance to a self-destructive extent.

Again i have no experience contacting anything paranormal so i can't say if this is right or wrong. Though my friend garret apparently channels messages from "angels" and other such entities who seem to be quite intelligent. But again this is also a subjective experience.

When I'm involved in any 'folkish' acticities, there is always beer close at hand.

Well lets say If we are to dance, one should wait for the song to end before hitting the bar for said liquid refreshment.

reply to post by Akragon


You wrote:

["Personally i find "evil" to be an excuse for bad behaviour. So and so killed this person, he must be evil... Uhm, NOOOO, that person is selfish, and likely hates other people so much so that they felt the need to destroy what they hate. Theres always reasons for "evil" so to speak. And one persons evil may be anothers persons Good."]


There are 'bad guys' and then there are 'bad guys'.

The (sometimes) scare-type of christianity and islam represents an existential 'real' principle; with pitchfork and similar other personal and doctrinal ornamentation.

The hindu-buddhist bad guy messes with cosmic perception (demons are more like mosquitos or man-eating tigers here).

The gnostic bad guy, Jahveh, is a deranged solipsist.

The northern-myth bad guy, Loke, is a trickster, seemingly from pettiness and from having been to much in bad company.

So to speak hiding behind one of them: "........ made me do it" is kind of weak. As weak as using them promotional in context with a product which can't promote itself in a positive sense.

reply to post by bogomil


Can you define any of these personalities as "evil" though?

Evil is the violation of, or intent to violate, some moral code. Evil is usually seen as the dualistic opposite of good. The philosophical question of whether morality is absolute or relative leads to questions about the nature of evil, with views falling into one of four opposed camps: moral absolutism, amoralism, moral relativism, and moral universalism.

From wikipedia...

The attitudes people express are sometimes atributed to our OP topic... This is what i mean when i said "evil is an excuse"... As if you can blame your actions on the devil or some other entity...

Theres some on these forums that even claim "you're either a child of God, or the seed of Satan"...

Those people define these personalities through the bible, yet don't even follow the "child of God" rules according to their own book!

So when it come down to it theres a "spiritual" evil, and a "moral" evil...

But can we attribute either of these to "Satan"?

reply to post by Akragon


You wrote:

["Evil is the violation of, or intent to violate, some moral code."]

In a 'local' context things can be evil or not. And as I don't believe in any known existential 'absolutes', I will consequently not refer to any 'abolute' morality, before I become a sage (and that seems to be slow to come around).

Quote: ["Evil is usually seen as the dualistic opposite of good."]

Which is a semantic construct, just like the verbal duality between light and darkness.

Quote: ["So when it come down to it theres a "spiritual" evil, and a "moral" evil... But can we attribute either of these to "Satan"?]

When in 'doubt', I do as Don Juan recommended Carlos Castaneda: Stop the world.

Which really isn't all that much of a direct answer, but it's still morning and I'm going partly on autopilot.

reply to post by bogomil

When in 'doubt', I do as Don Juan recommended Carlos Castaneda: Stop the world.

Stop the world, Not blame some spiritual entity.

Personally i say when in doubt, look at your actions and find out why they occured.

Blaming some spiritual scapegoat for ones actions is just rediculous.

reply to post by Akragon


Instead of looking at it in this perspective. Look at it this way:
What if his task was to set up the stage to tempt man and do as you say, but he took it too far and not only did this to man, but tried to get the others above to follow him?