Dying Inside: Elderly in prison

Originally posted by zatara
First of all I would like to say that these elderly people probably have better care inside than if they would be outside.....Secondly, probably a bit cynical, its is better to spent tax-dollars on these inmates than to see these dollars be spent on weapons for the millitary or have these dollars "disappear" into the pockets of the ones who made disappear all those other billions of tax-payers dollars. And thirdly, they commited a serious crime and we all agreed to put them in jail for it.....and that cost money. On the other hand...if somebody spent most of his life in jail and reached a certain old age and would probably be no danger for himself or the community it is maybe a good idea to let them go.....if they want. Again, these longtimers will have a hard time to survive if put on the streets again after so many years, some would prefer to stay.

Even if they didn't spend the money on this, the governments would just find another way to waste it. Personally im still in favor of the "devils Island" technique. An island for hardened criminals where they have no way of escaping, unguarded and issolated. They're technically free but have no connections to the outside world. It would be a hell of a lot cheaper if this method was still in use. But of course this prison system we have is just another way for the governments to skim off the top of the budget.

In every system theres always someone at the top getting rich. Why use a logical means of imprisonment when you can steal money from the public and never get caught.

"Documents obtained through Access to Information reveal how Corrections Service Canada manages its annual budget of $2.2 billion to care for its 14,500 inmates"

Now thats a statistic from 2008 in Canada (where i live) and that equals aprox. $151724 per prisoner... So they're telling us they spend almost 150k on a single person to lock him up? BULLSH!T I've seen what they eat, they don't have armani suits in prison, they barely have recreational facilities... And the guards don't get paid that well...so where is this money going? Well isn't it obvious...whoever is at the top of the prison system is getting rich just like any other system in use today...

What a world we live in.....the Governments of the world are the real criminals...Legal criminals but criminals none the less.

$100,000 - $150,000 a year per prisoner sounds corrupt to me. Even if through incompetence rather than by design. Prisons could not only be self-funding, they could generate income that forms the cash element of the criminal repaying his debt to society.

If it costs less to house and guard frail and infirm prisoners in care homes than in prisons, then it is time businesses that own and run prisons are brought to book. It is scandalous that private enterprises can milk the treasury in this way and a full accounts and service audit of all such businesses when compared with audited accounts of care home businesses, should disclose where the waste, profiteering or fraud may originate and fix the problem.

I do not care where in the world this occurs, taxpayers should not have to fund any criminal's day to day living expenses that businesses and corporations can contract to use cheap prison labour, reduce production costs and increase profits whilst undermining local employment options.

I think prisoners should be made to work and should be paid an agreed minimum wage. Prisoner income could be heavily taxed. First with normal taxes everyone pays, then boarding costs, then third of what's left to, victim; as part of restorative justice, treasury; debt to society, self; pay for their own luxuries.

As a taxpaying citizen, albeit an incarcerated one, an elderly and infirm or severly disabled prisoner would be able to access full pension rights as anyone else, and pay for their own care.

reply to post by teapot

$100,000 a year per prisoner sounds corrupt to me.

Not sure - but I don't think so. ...Palliative care costs a lot. ...Great ideas, observations btw.

boondock-saint - that's how Australia was born, didja know?

I say let the people against the death sentence pay for their health care then. Life in prison should be a death sentence honestly. Sure I realize people get tossed in there and are actually innocent. Almost happened to me until they caught the killer. So I know how that could happen but when there is no reasonable doubt and the crimes are confessed to there should be a life sentence to death.

You can`t just turn them free. The homeless are some people that actually were in mental facilities that are just bused out to a large city and dropped off due to mental wards getting shut down. And most everyone's opinion is not good when it comes to the homeless like they are there by just wanting to be homeless. One very Sick world we have made here.

Well, just a very simple wiki search (who knows if its accurate, but it's the only figure I found quickly) is that the average male on medicare receives 108000-240000 and woman is 142000-277000 in benefits. These figures are based on that medicare pays only 80% of medical bills, the remainder is picked up by their out of pocket, other insurance, or medicaid (which is usually the case).

By releasing the elder back society, is not saving the tax payer anything, it will cost more, just shifting from overwhelmed system to another. So, release due to financial burden reasons, doesn't seem to work for me.

Now compassionate release is another issue. But I get a little mixed up when it comes to violent criminals, can you really punish a person that has dementia and doesn't remember their crimes, no. But where will these people end up? Assuming the person has been locked up for 15-20 yrs, chances are they don't have anyone to take care of them or anyone who wants to anyway, so then what happens to them. Although, depending on the crime does I don't know that I want to release someone early anyway.

edit to add: 100,000 a year does not sound excessive to me, dialysis alone costs over 60000 a year, and that's without meds or any other health condition.

More death penalties...

Less life sentences!

If what they did was too terrible to ever let them out, then it should be bad enough crime to remove them from the population.

There are too many repeat offenders when released anyways.

Not excessive?!?!??!?!

Let me rephrase then....thats 3,750,000 to take care of a prisoner that has a 25 year term.

So they spend that amount to take care of the garbage of society.... 1 person.... Nuke that one person, and we could easily feed the homeless, or even donate to less fortunate countries (which is also pointless cause the starving people would never get that money)

Thats well over 10 million dollars for 3 prisoners....probably murderers or rapists, again...the scum of the earth.

Now these people don't get any special treatment, keep in mind they are criminals. They ware cotton jumpsuits, they eat low grade food. They might have a few channels for their TV privilages....they have litterally nothing yet it costs them insane amounts of money to take care of them.

Anyone who can't see the obvious flaw in this system is clearly a moron. The issue is that it isn't a flaw its intentional.

Someone gets rich off the prison system, which is why we don't use the death penalty or even easier methods such as life in issolation (devils island etc)

The world is corrupt its just a fact...

Well, prisoners are guaranteed medical care, and if they are aging they will need more of it, just like anybody else. www.aclu.org...

If a prisoner was so infirm that he could not care for himself and therefore you let him out of prison, what would happen? Most likely, he would wind up in some other government provided program or dead on the streets. People dying on the streets is something we try as a society to avoid. If the person winds up in another government provided program, then the taxpayers are still covering the costs so we don't really save anything there. I would think our best option is to have a long-term-care and/or hospice area within the prison establishments where necessary care is provided, but I don't think one could justify life prolonging procedures in such a facility so it would basically be a facility-wide DNR order for all occupants. So, for example, if someone in this facility were to suffer a heart attack, they would not attempt to save the person's life, but would only provide pain relieving medications and keep the person "comfortable" to the best of their abilities.

Originally posted by boondock-saint
well I can see ur point,
however, who's gonna pay
all that extra amount to
keep someone on staff
to wipe butts ???

I mean really, some of these prisons
look absolutely nothing like prisons,
but look like the local nursing home.

Its a valid point - but somebody will have to won't they?

Ok sure, maybe some of them have kids or relatives that could take them in. But, the government would likely end up having to care for most of them either in jail or out of jail. Someone who has been locked up for the past 50 years hasn't been putting away lots of cash for their old age.

However, they may not be 100% safe to themselves or others. Even dementia suffers sometimes relive the past and what that past is and how its relived can sometimes be a danger. A few years ago a former pro-wrestler who is now an Alzheimer's patient in a nursing home broke another patient's hip when he put a wrestling move on him. That patient later died of the injuries.

Either inside or outside they need to be kept safe.

Most likely if a person is that sick, they are going to be on public assistance anyways if they don't have anyone to care for them.
The US has the most inmates of any country in the world. We need to start asking why. And do some people really need the internment they have been given.

Maybe less incarceration needs to be considered and more rehabilitation. And before someone starts screaming that I want to let pedophiles on the street, I am not talking about the serious crimes here.

If a criminal is in for life, yes taking care of a senior population is going to be expensive. What should be considered is reducing the population overall, instead of incarcerating people for minor drug charges.

I'm a believer in "you do the crime, you do the time". But, realistically, if you're 75 and can't even remember your own name, I seriously doubt that you're going to go round killing folks and holding up convenience stores. And seeing as it costs so much to house these inmates, maybe outsourcing them to some sort of secured nursing home would be the best thing to do.

Originally posted by Constantlysilenced

Originally posted by boondock-saint

Originally posted by Constantlysilenced
Absolutely. If you do the crime, you do the time, regardless of whether you can remember what you done or even go to the toilet on your own.

well I can see ur point,
however, who's gonna pay
all that extra amount to
keep someone on staff
to wipe butts ???

I mean really, some of these prisons
look absolutely nothing like prisons,
but look like the local nursing home.

Surely if they are capable of committing the crimes that put them there, they are capable of wiping their own butts. Mind you, some sort of Secured Nursing Home could be an option, payed for out of the offenders own pocket so tax payers aren't burdened.

You Americans never fail to blow my mind with your vengefulness and lack of any hint of compassion! Here we have what are called 'forensic mental health units' (one is a few blocks from my home, and my son worked there during his nursing training.) "Criminals" with any mental health issues - anything from what y'all call 'retardation' (intellectual handicap) to psychosis and even dementia, are sentenced to these units (the local one being the Mason clinic, after a man who headed an enquiry that recommended the creation of these units.)
People who are in no way capable of understanding or remembering their crimes live in the Mason Clinic where they receive specialised care. They will never leave this place, but at least there, they get their 'butts wiped' if necessary, and they are at no risk of being anally raped or 'shanked' - they are secure and the public is secure from them!
Vicky
PS - I just want to add in order to clarify, that incarceration in the Mason Clinic is not paid for by the offenders (how could it possibly be?) but by taxpayers. We don't mind paying taxes to ensure that these people are secure.

reply to post by boondock-saint


Hilarious! Punishment for deviancy in the free-range slave system results in living as incarcerated freemen! Irony rocks!

Originally posted by sykickvision
reply to post by CHEDwick

 

mentally ill.

Have I misunderstood you, or are you saying that the mentally ill belong in prison? IMO, you are simply demonstrating how the American system and society are irretrievably lost and broken.
I've heard that in your legal system, there's no such thing as an insanity defence - i.e., that anyone who offers such a defence, even if it's obviously true is convicted anyway to x life sentences in Supermax for his or her temerity (the only exception that I am aware of being the Du Pont heir who killed his family and staff etc and has been spending the last 10 years in a mental health facility. (It obviously is necessary to have eye-watering amounts of money...
Am I right in this belief?
Vicky
PS Chedwick, I apologise completely, because I had another look at your post and I see that I did indeed miusnderstand you! However, my question about your legal system and the insanity defence applies still, and I would like to ask if of any and all knowledgeable people on this thread...

reply to post by boondock-saint


Throw'em out on the street. They are eating up prison profits.

reply to post by Vicky32


Yes! That is pretty much exactly what I had in mind. That is how I think it should work. Thank you Vicky32.

Edit to say that I am responding to Vicky32, not to the poster above me who wants to throw them out on the streets. That is definitely NOT an option in my book.

Originally posted by Aeons
reply to post by boondock-saint

 

Throw'em out on the street. They are eating up prison profits.

Prisons should absolutely not be about profits. That's just sick!
Vicky

ok if they are so old that they cant remember what they did or even their name there is no point in them still being in jail, i thought that the point of jail was to learn your lesson if they dont know what they did what are they learning?

reply to post by nikkibee


Ok, but where are you going to put them? That is my point. You can't just dump them on the street to wander and die. Not only that, prisoners have a legal right to medical care (see my post).

Originally posted by nikkibee
ok if they are so old that they cant remember what they did or even their name there is no point in them still being in jail, i thought that the point of jail was to learn your lesson if they dont know what they did what are they learning?

Do you believe that a violent sociopath with dementia is somehow LESS concerning as a potential problem?