Actual Roswell Newspaper Text - The "Smoking Gun" - NO UFO!

sorry this is way off subject but heres a link to a thread alot of people will be intrested in
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
reply to post by spacevisitor

 

Hi spacevisitor, sorry I missed it before.

Here is an article that talks about some possible reasons why less than 100% of the Mogul flight 4 debris was found by Brazel:

The wayward journey of NYU project flight #4

Considering the amount of time the train was in the upper atmosphere, it seems that there would be a significant amount of balloons bursting during the end of the flight.

When one examines the description of balloon debris by weight reported by Mack Brazel to the Roswell Daily Record, it seems that this was the case.

According to Professor Moore, there was only enough material for three or four balloons. Flight #5 had 12 balloons intact when it landed and it fell at an average rate of 800-1000 feet per minute until it reached 25,000 feet.

Assuming that some other balloons were intact to pull some of the upper train away from the Foster Ranch, the number of balloons left after the descent would have been less than a dozen.

This is consistent with the rapid descent calculated by Moore.

During the descent the train again resumed a northeast flight path as it passed back into the troposphere.

This path took it into the vicinity of the Foster Ranch.

Upon touching down, the train would have been dragged in a northeast direction scattering balloon and reflector material (as well as other items in the train such as parachutes, launching rings, etc) over a good size area.

Once this ballast had been shed, the remaining balloons would have taken the remains of the train airborne and further to the northeast.

suspect that's exactly what happened, that it was dragged on the ground, ripping the targets to shreds, shed some ballast, and became airborne again.

There's no way to prove that's what happened, but it seems like a perfectly reasonable scenario to me.

Well Arbitrageur, I must admit that it is a good find.
But I really could not believe my eyes the first time I did read that article, but after reading it honestly several times in order to be shore I did read it correct, I cannot say other then kudos for the Professor’s imagination.

Do I find that a perfectly reasonable scenario, NO.

The reason for that is that there exist no New York University (NYU) record of that flight as one can read below, so therefore, Professor Moore based his trajectory of flight #4 entirely on those from two other flights, namely #5 and #6 as one can see in that drawing and read below it.

So how reliable can that be?

Moore remembers that they had lost radar contact with the balloon while the balloon was being tracked with a theodolite.

Flight #4 did not make it into the NYU records because,
"Only those flights in which an attempt was made to control the altitude of the balloon are included in the summary. Excluded are flights made to test special gear and launchings which were not successful"
(HQ USAF Attachment 32/Appendix 13 p. 27). The lack of any record (other than Crary's journal entry) indirectly verifies some of Moore's memory of the flight having problems being tracked and that no useful data was obtained from the flight. The theodolite measurements would only be used for mapping the ground track of the flight as stated in the NYU records,

"The flights made in the early part of this program were tracked optically with theodolites. Coupled with the height data, theodolite readings provided a fairly reliable horizontal locus of the balloon"
(HQ USAF Attachment 32/Appendix 13 p. 13). The theodolite measurements would not provide enough information to make an analysis of the flight. Vertical measurement would have been made via radiosonde or RADAR. Professor Moore recalls that the initial flight from Alamogordo did not use a radiosonde:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/960d3b138005.jpg[/atsimg]

Once the balloon train reached the upper troposphere, new wind systems began to take control of the balloon flight. The balloon train now took a shift of direction to the northwest as it passed through the Tropopause (the boundary between troposphere and stratosphere). These are the same winds experienced by flight #5 the next day. However, unlike flight #5, Moore figures that flight #4 continued its ascent to levels higher than that reached by flight #5. Again, the early launch time plays a key role such that the balloon flight would not experience too much loss of lift by balloons bursting from solar heating. In flight #5, the flight moved northwesterly until it began to lose lift. However, just before descending the flight did manage to reach the lower levels of the stratosphere and shift towards the WSW for a short period. This is the same wind direction experienced by flight #6 a few days later. Therefore, when Dr. Moore shows the flight making a turn towards the WSW, he is not arriving at this value arbitrarily. The reason that flight #5 did take this course was because the flight stayed at levels lower than that flight #4 apparently achieved. Again, all of these values are consistent with information from flights 5 and 6. Flight #4 now traveled WSW for almost three hours in Moore's estimate. Compared to flight #5, flight #4 spent an extra two hours in the upper atmosphere. Once again, the time of launch explains the difference and it does not seem that Professor Moore is taking too many unnecessary assumptions in this model.

The final descent of flight #4 was rapid. Considering the amount of time the train was in the upper atmosphere, it seems that there would be a significant amount of balloons bursting during the end of the flight. When one examines the description of balloon debris by weight reported by Mack Brazel to the Roswell Daily Record, it seems that this was the case. According to Professor Moore, there was only enough material for three or four balloons. Flight #5 had 12 balloons intact when it landed and it fell at an average rate of 800-1000 feet per minute until it reached 25,000 feet. Assuming that some other balloons were intact to pull some of the upper train away from the Foster Ranch, the number of balloons left after the descent would have been less than a dozen. This is consistent with the rapid descent calculated by Moore. During the descent the train again resumed a northeast flight path as it passed back into the troposphere. This path took it into the vicinity of the Foster Ranch. Upon touching down, the train would have been dragged in a northeast direction scattering balloon and reflector material (as well as other items in the train such as parachutes, launching rings, etc) over a good size area. Once this ballast had been shed, the remaining balloons would have taken the remains of the train airborne and further to the northeast.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
reply to post by simples

 

Good question. It's a big barren desert out there with few inhabitants. The sun's UV radiation would attack many of the mogul components, some would last maybe a few weeks, and others maybe a few years, but if it wasn't found within that time there might not be enough left to recognize. Or maybe someone found it, thought it was a useless pile of junk and kept on going? Given the low population density in the desert, it wouldn't surprise me if nobody ever found it even if it was out there somewhere to be found.

Don’t you think Arbitrageur that because those balloons where from a very secret military project, the military would have done everything in their power with airplanes and whatever to find it, instead of leave it where it is for anyone to find?

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
It also wouldn't surprise me if someone found it, and just ignored it.

If that is what you think, then why would they if it was only just some debris of a Mogul balloon taken all that effort for sending some of the debris/material by personal courier due plane to Commanding General of the Air Material Command at Wright Field [later Wright Patterson AFB] Benjamin Chidlaw as one can read this testimony from Thomas Jefferson Dubose, retired from the U.S. Air force in 1959 with the rank of Brigadier General.

And why if it was again only just debris of a Mogul balloon was that entire operation conducted under the strictest secrecy?

Originally posted by Gazrok
THE CASE FOR ROSWELL PART I.

Additionally, there is the testimony (as a sworn affidavit) of the other man in the photo other than the General, that proves to be an interesting read… roswellproof.homestead.com...

1) My name is Thomas Jefferson Dubose

(2) My address is: XXXXXXXXXX

(3) I retired from the U.S. Air force in 1959 with the rank of Brigadier General.

(4) In July 1947, I was stationed at Fort Worth Army Air Field [later Carswell Air Force Base] in Fort Worth, Texas. I served as Chief of Staff to Major General Roger Ramey, Commander, Eight Air Force. I had the rank of Colonel.

(5) In early July, I received a phone call from Maj. Gen. Clements McMullen, Deputy Commander, Strategic Air Command. He asked what we knew about the object which had been recovered outside Roswell, New Mexico, as reported in the press. I called Col. William Blanchard, Commander of the Roswell Army Air Field and directed him to send the material in a sealed container to me at Fort Worth. I so informed Maj. Gen. McMullen.

(6) After the plane from Roswell arrived with the material, I asked the Base Commander, Col. Al Clark, to take possession of the material and to personally transport it in a B-26 to Maj. Gen. McMullen in Washington, D.C. I notified Maj. Gen. McMullen, and he told me he would send the material by personal courier on his plane to Benjamin Chidlaw, Commanding General of the Air Material Command at Wright Field [later Wright Patterson AFB]. The entire operation was conducted under the strictest secrecy.

(7) The material shown in the photographs taken in Maj. Gen. Ramey's office was a weather balloon. The weather balloon explanation for the material was a cover story to divert the attention of the press.

(8) I have not been paid or given anything of value to make this statement, which is the truth to the best of my recollection.

Signed: T. J. Dubose
Date: 9/16/91

Signature witnessed by:
Linda R. Split
Notary Public, State of Florida

reply to post by Gazrok

Originally posted by spacevisitor
Don’t you think Arbitrageur that because those balloons where from a very secret military project, the military would have done everything in their power with airplanes and whatever to find it, instead of leave it where it is for anyone to find?

Did you notice I mentioned the sonobuoy? I think if they recovered that they wouldn't worry about the rest. Why would they? That's really the only component I know of that could have given someone a clue about the true nature of the experiment.

If that is what you think, then why would they if it was only just some debris of a Mogul balloon taken all that effort for sending some of the debris/material by personal courier due plane to Commanding General of the Air Material Command at Wright Field [later Wright Patterson AFB] Benjamin Chidlaw as one can read this testimony from Thomas Jefferson Dubose, retired from the U.S. Air force in 1959 with the rank of Brigadier General.

If they knew what it was they wouldn't have, but they didn't know what it was except that it was something attached to a balloon, according to the FBI memo.

And why if it was again only just debris of a Mogul balloon was that entire operation conducted under the strictest secrecy?

Why is that such a mystery? He said the weather balloon was a cover story, and the debris was more than a weather balloon debris so the only way to avoid blowing the cover story was to keep that operation a secret. If it was just a weather balloon they wouldn't have sent it for analysis.

C'mon this isn't so hard to figure out, these questions practically answer themselves.

Originally posted by spacevisitor
Professor Moore based his trajectory of flight #4 entirely on those from two other flights, namely #5 and #6 as one can see in that drawing and read below it.

So how reliable can that be?

He used 5 and 6 as references, but he came up with a different path for flight 4 accounting for the differences. You can see the analysis from different points of view in excruciating detail in the link below.

He doesn't claim it's 100% accurate and he doesn't know the exact flight path, he only intended to show one possible trajectory the flight path might have taken that could have placed it on the Foster ranch. There's no certainty it took that flight path or that's what they found. It's less than certain, only "likely".

Printy elaborates a bit on one if his other links:

home.comcast.net...

As Professor Moore has since stated, his analysis was never meant to be a hard and fast quantitative analysis. His analysis was meant to show how the balloons might have gotten to the Foster ranch and not exactly how they did so.

That's probably got more about the flight 4 analysis from the viewpoints of Moore, Rudiak and Printy than you want to know, but you can see there's way too much there from all 3 to just dismiss it.

Also remember there's no trajectory, even speculative, for alternate theories like an alien spaceship. So the fact that the Mogul trajectory isn't 100% certain seems like a "red herring" when compared to alternative theories that have NOTHING, instead of that speculative analysis of flight 4.

I don't think anyone is 100% certain what they found was mogul flight 4 and the trajectory Moore calculated is certainly not meant to be any proof that's what it was, only proof that Mogul is what it COULD have been.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
(snip)
So Pflock is an ex-believer, I'm an ex-believer, and lots of people who used to believe there was a cover-up and were Roswell believers, have come to accept the Mogul explanation as the most likely. I don't think any of us were losers before 1994 because we were right, they really were hiding something with the weather balloon cover story, but it was a classified nuclear listening device, not an alien ship. Pflock went on to write a book about it.

Losers in that anyone who holds that a UFO crashed near Roswell, or anywhere on planet earth, is on the losing side of common sense, logic, and reason. The balloon train was 600 feet in length. The UFO was 0 in any dimension! I was never nor am i now on the losing side.

reply to post by The Shrike

Losers in that anyone who holds that a UFO crashed near Roswell, or anywhere on planet earth, is on the losing side of common sense, logic, and reason. The balloon train was 600 feet in length. The UFO was 0 in any dimension! I was never nor am i now on the losing side.

Your opinion is just that..
As for the loser comment, well debatable I'm sure...

But there is still no definitive answer to the Roswell incident..
No evidence for you or I to look at.
Too many different stories even from officials..

You may be of the "opinion" the balloon is the most likely scenario,
but you certainly haven't put forward an air tight case with proof...

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by spacevisitor
Don’t you think Arbitrageur that because those balloons where from a very secret military project, the military would have done everything in their power with airplanes and whatever to find it, instead of leave it where it is for anyone to find?

Did you notice I mentioned the sonobuoy?

To be honest, no, I missed that one.

But tell me, what is so exceptional or special about that sonobuoy, because look at it.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/36b23f6fb809.jpg[/atsimg]

Sonobuoy microphone package

Then,

According to the Pentagon, that’s what witnesses mistook for structural elements from a UFO!

In order to get an idea of the value of that explanation, one only needs to buy a balsa wood stick at a hobby shop, 8 mm thick (the size of the radar target balsa members), and see how easy it is to break it with your fingers.

As for the equipment hanging from the balloon trains, such as a ballast assembly and sonobuoy, they were just as ordinary in appearance.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/883b2ba1eb99.jpg[/atsimg]

and ballast release assembly

Not very impressive, that “aerial behemoth”, as Karl Pflock dares to call it in his book (p. 149).

www.ovni.ch...

And when I look to all the pictures here posted, I ask myself the following question, how on Earth can people think or even take it serious, that all those witnesses back then did mistaken this really awkwardly toy like back to Earth debris for structural elements of a UFO?

Roswell 1947 - Photographs

MOGUL BALLOON TRAIN AND MOGUL PARTS PHOTOGRAPHS:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b0652b644b42.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/69865f21b31f.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b5bff02f0d9b.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/1385b3e025e5.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/54aff7aa4549.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/18d40bd8c00f.jpg[/atsimg]

www.ufologie.net...

Therefore, do you still really believe that they did send debris of that, or even that "sonobuoy" by personal courier due plane to Commanding General of the Air Material Command at Wright Field [later Wright Patterson AFB] Benjamin Chidlaw under the strictest secrecy?

And then this.

How is it possible that the "Table of Mogul flights, part of the complete report of New York University on Mogul flights, reproduced in the USAF Roswell Report of 1995" is so different then the "Table of Mogul flights according to Prof. Charles Moore in his book UFO Crash at Roswell (1997)"?

Annex

1) Excerpt of the Table of Mogul flights, part of the complete report of New York University on Mogul flights, reproduced in the USAF Roswell Report of 1995.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/124398835b67.jpg[/atsimg]

Below

2) Excerpt of the Table of Mogul flights according to Prof. Charles Moore in his book UFO Crash at Roswell (1997).
Note the modifications made to the original NYU table: the first tests, numbered A and B have been suppressed. On the contrary, Charles Moore has added the following tests, numbered 2, 3 and 4, which had all failed and are absent in the NYU table, in order to introduce the flight number 4. But it had been cancelled because of cloudy weather. This addition by Charles Moore is deceitful.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b28ca9eb6a3b.jpg[/atsimg]

www.ovni.ch...

Originally posted by spacevisitor
But tell me, what is so exceptional or special about that sonobuoy, because look at it.

The appearance isn't exceptional, I agree. But your question wasn't about appearance. It was why they wouldn't retreive the rest of Mogul if not all of it crashed at Foster Ranch. And my answer is that the only part which hints at the classified nature of the mission would be the sonobuoy, so if they recovered that at the Foster ranch, there would be no need to get the rest. That has nothing to do with the appearance. However what MAY be relevant about that photo, is that it might match the description of one of the items sent to wright field for analysis.

According to the Pentagon, that’s what witnesses mistook for structural elements from a UFO!

And when I look to all the pictures here posted, I ask myself the following question, how on Earth can people think or even take it serious, that all those witnesses back then did mistaken this really awkwardly toy like back to Earth debris for structural elements of a UFO?

As far as I'm concerend it's not a mistake. They found this debris, it had obviously been flying, they didn't know what it was, so that makes it a UFO. So it's not a mistake to call it a UFO, that's what it was, to the people that found it. You may have a hard time understanding that, but your view is biased because YOU know what it was. You have to put yourself in their shoes...they didn't know what it was.

Therefore, do you still really believe that they did send debris of that, or even that "sonobuoy" by personal courier due plane to Commanding General of the Air Material Command at Wright Field [later Wright Patterson AFB] Benjamin Chidlaw under the strictest secrecy?

Nothing you have posted has made me think otherwise. It's very simple. Cover story=weather balloon. It's not a weather balloon they found. Therefore the only way to maintain the cover story is to make it a secret that they're really sending out what they found for analysis, and they have to keep it secret because if anyone found out, they would know the weather balloon cover story was a lie. Why is this simple concept so hard for you to grasp?

How is it possible that the "Table of Mogul flights, part of the complete report of New York University on Mogul flights, reproduced in the USAF Roswell Report of 1995" is so different then the "Table of Mogul flights according to Prof. Charles Moore in his book UFO Crash at Roswell (1997)"?

Here's what bothers me about this whole line of thought.

Charles Moore was the guy who ran that project. How is it that people that weren't there and didn't run the project think they know more than he does about it? I think if he says Mogul flight 4 is possibly what they found, we have to give that some weight. If you live in the real world and you look at real logs like I do (I actually audit logs people keep as part of my work) you would realize that not all logs are kept perfectly and follow every rule, and some entries are missed for a number of reasons. So the simple explanation is those logs were kept by humans.

The other thing that occurs to me is, where are the logs of any alien spaceships? At least with mogul there's a numbering sequence and a missing log entry for number 4, so it's not outrageous to suggest there could have been a flight 4. What are you comparing this to with any alternate theory? Have you got a log of flights of alien spaceships that's more reliable?

You may look at the log as evidence there wasn't a flight 4, but I and others look at it as evidence there could have been one, especially coupled with McCrary's diary entry saying that there WAS a launch.

If the official story of another case presented a log like that to prove there was no flight 4, and the conspiracy theorists had other ideas, what would they say? They would say "Do you expect us to believe there was no flight 4 just because there was no log entry?" and they would go on to argue that the missing number in the sequence was PROOF there WAS a flight 4, and that it just wasn't entered in the log, am I right?

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by spacevisitor
Therefore, do you still really believe that they did send debris of that, or even that "sonobuoy" by personal courier due plane to Commanding General of the Air Material Command at Wright Field [later Wright Patterson AFB] Benjamin Chidlaw under the strictest secrecy?

Nothing you have posted has made me think otherwise.

That’s no problem.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
It's very simple. Cover story=weather balloon. It's not a weather balloon they found. Therefore the only way to maintain the cover story is to make it a secret that they're really sending out what they found for analysis,
Why is this simple concept so hard for you to grasp?

Well we at least agree so far that the weather balloon cover story was a lie.

That Mogul project was already a very secret project, so why would they have send it this time instead of sending it as they normally did to the people like Prof. Charles Moore of that secret project, to all those as claimed by Retired Brigadier General Thomas Jefferson Dubose high-ranking people here below under the strictest secrecy?

1. send it first from out Roswell to Fort Worth, were as it seems no one recognized it as simple Mogul balloon debris.

2. send it then from out Fort Worth to Washington, DC, were as it seems no one recognized it as simple Mogul balloon debris either.

3. send it then and from out Washington, DC to Wright Field [later Wright Patterson AFB] D.C.

Is that not quite remarkable.

(5) In early July, I received a phone call from Maj. Gen. Clements McMullen, Deputy Commander, Strategic Air Command.
He asked what we knew about the object which had been recovered outside Roswell, New Mexico, as reported in the press.
I called Col. William Blanchard, Commander of the Roswell Army Air Field and directed him to send the material in a sealed container to me at Fort Worth. I so informed Maj. Gen. McMullen.

(6) After the plane from Roswell arrived with the material, I asked the Base Commander, Col. Al Clark, to take possession of the material and to personally transport it in a B-26 to Maj. Gen. McMullen in Washington, D.C. I notified Maj. Gen. McMullen, and he told me he would send the material by personal courier on his plane to Benjamin Chidlaw, Commanding General of the Air Material Command at Wright Field [later Wright Patterson AFB]. The entire operation was conducted under the strictest secrecy.

roswellproof.homestead.com...

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

How is it possible that the "Table of Mogul flights, part of the complete report of New York University on Mogul flights, reproduced in the USAF Roswell Report of 1995" is so different then the "Table of Mogul flights according to Prof. Charles Moore in his book UFO Crash at Roswell (1997)"?

Here's what bothers me about this whole line of thought.

Charles Moore was the guy who ran that project. How is it that people that weren't there and didn't run the project think they know more than he does about it? I think if he says Mogul flight 4 is possibly what they found, we have to give that some weight.

If that is bothering you about this whole line of thought, then I suppose this is bothering you to.

Major Jesse Marcel sr was the guy [firsthand witness] who was at the debris site himself. How is it that people that weren't there and didn't saw the debris themselves like Prof. Moore think they know more than he does about it?
Don’t you think that if he says “it was not anything from this Earth”, we have to give that some weight either?

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
The other thing that occurs to me is, where are the logs of any alien spaceships?

Don’t you think that you have to ask that to the people who did retrieve and confiscated that alien spaceship?

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
You may look at the log as evidence there wasn't a flight 4, but I and others look at it as evidence there could have been one, especially coupled with McCrary's diary entry saying that there WAS a launch.

Well, if you want to believe that there WAS a launch, then that’s oke with me.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
If the official story of another case presented a log like that to prove there was no flight 4, and the conspiracy theorists had other ideas, what would they say? They would say "Do you expect us to believe there was no flight 4 just because there was no log entry?" and they would go on to argue that the missing number in the sequence was PROOF there WAS a flight 4, and that it just wasn't entered in the log, am I right?

Don’t you think that you have to ask that to a conspiracy theorist?

Originally posted by spacevisitor
(snip)
Don’t you think that if he says “it was not anything from this Earth”, we have to give that some weight either?
(snip)
Don’t you think that you have to ask that to the people who did retrieve and confiscated that alien spaceship?
(snip)

Since there was no evidence whatsover of a UFO, as opposed to the evidence for a balloon train debris, then anything that anyone said that could not stand scrutiny is weightless!

You provide evidence that anyone retrieved and confiscated an alien spaceship. Since you won't be able to, then it behooves you to speak factually instead of with a forked tongue perpetuating myth.

One of the worst things about Kent’s article is that it employs tunnel vision. What about the testimony of Bill Brazel, who found strange wreckage himself? Of Judd Roberts the radio station man? Of Elizabeth Tulk and Phyllis McGuire, the sheriff’s daughters? Of Loretta Procter, of other ranchers? I spoke with all of these in April. What about all the testimony relating to the Plains of San Augustine crash and the easy proof that the NSA and CIA are withholding UFO-related information. Why does Kent act as though as though flying disc and UFO mean the same thing? My lecture is Flying Saucers are Real, NOT UFOs are real because only some UFOs are flying saucers, though all flying saucers are UFOs.

I think it is fair to say that Stanton Friedman is pretty well respected here at ATS, so here is a link to an interesting piece from his site re an article/book on Roswell. Mr Friedman was the first civilian to investigate the Roswell case and his words on the matter count for heaps as far as I am concerned. Plus he interviewed and became friends with many of the witnesses.
I am an admirer of the man for many reasons


www.stantonfriedman.com...

reply to post by The Shrike


I think you have to be open minded on this one. Was it an alien spacecraft? I don't know all the official government evidence points towards a weather balloon. But again only speculation but can't evidence be forged? Even the evidence of witnesses is only word of mouth. I did honestly believe at one point it was of extra teristual origin but who do you believe a government that would probably want to cover up an alien spacecraft because of the technological advances it could bring them during the height of the cold war or statements of people saying what they think they saw and what they think was a flying disc, imagination can take over and eyesight can be deceiving. So who do you believe? Me personally I don't know I'm on the fence

Originally posted by spacevisitor
Don’t you think that if he says “it was not anything from this Earth”, we have to give that some weight either?

I do give it weight to the extent that I want to hear what about it makes it seem like it's not from Earth. Then when he describes what makes him think that, his description doesn't support his claim. In fact what he describes sounds remarkably like Mogul debris, so it actually reinforces Charles Moore's assertion it might have been Mogul, and not extraterrestrial.

Don’t you think that you have to ask that to a conspiracy theorist?

After reading ATS for a year? I have a pretty good idea how they think, so no, I don't think I need to ask when I already know the answer.

Regarding the fact that they flew the debris around for people to look at it, I find that a little odd but not too remarkable, plus, Dubose contradicts himself so I'm not sure how good his memory is about things that happened so long ago.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by spacevisitor
Don’t you think that if he says “it was not anything from this Earth”, we have to give that some weight either?

I do give it weight to the extent that I want to hear what about it makes it seem like it's not from Earth. Then when he describes what makes him think that, his description doesn't support his claim. In fact what he describes sounds remarkably like Mogul debris, so it actually reinforces Charles Moore's assertion it might have been Mogul, and not extraterrestrial.

I disagree with you here, but here is a lot of information about that debris and its really exceptional qualities as told by several witnesses.
It’s obvious in my opinion that those qualities go far beyond the simple qualities of the material used for Mogul balloons back then.

DESCRIPTIONS OF ROSWELL CRASH DEBRIS BY CIVILIAN AND MILITARY WITNESSES

Compiled by David Rudiak

This is a recently updated version of Roswell debris descriptions that I originally posted to the Net in 1996.
I have also included some commentary from the skeptics with their "explanations" for the debris or descriptions of Mogul balloon equipment, the current official USAF explanation of the Roswell crash.

www.roswellproof.com...

The complete debris file in Microsoft Word .DOC format can also be downloaded here.
This is over 60 pages long when printed out.

www.roswellproof.com...

reply to post by spacevisitor

#1=sticks
#2=foil
#4=tape
Still looks like balloon debris to me, maybe with some embellishments. Kinda like my hands get a little bit wider each time I retell the story about that big fish I caught

That's right, to keep an open mind is a good thing www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by simples
reply to post by The Shrike

 

I think you have to be open minded on this one. Was it an alien spacecraft? I don't know all the official government evidence points towards a weather balloon. But again only speculation but can't evidence be forged? Even the evidence of witnesses is only word of mouth. I did honestly believe at one point it was of extra teristual origin but who do you believe a government that would probably want to cover up an alien spacecraft because of the technological advances it could bring them during the height of the cold war or statements of people saying what they think they saw and what they think was a flying disc, imagination can take over and eyesight can be deceiving. So who do you believe? Me personally I don't know I'm on the fence

Open minded? No one is more open minded than me. But I'm not a gullible or a believer. I demand irrefutable evidence for all claims. I'm satisfied with the evidence produced in the Roswell case for a balloon train, a secret project to spy on the Russians' nuclear testing. You think that in 1947 everyone knew we were spying on the Russians? You think that a general, a base commander, highly-placed officers were "in the know"? I don't think so. They were ignorant of some things and some situations tested them and they came up short.

The difference in our thinking - yours, mine, everyone elses - is that I'm not a conspiracist. I employ common sense, logic, and reason. Whe you use them in dealing with topics that have become fantasies and perpetuated as such by the gullible, then it doesn't matter what the truth is or was, the gullible won't accept non-fantasy explanations. Nothing points to a weather balloon. You nor most of the members replying to this thread seem to understand the temper of the times (1947), do not seem to understand what drove the principal characters to behave the way they did, to say the things they said, etc. The bottom line is that once all of the bull# is removed you wind up with a prosaic explanation that has been blown out of proportion. Debris from a balloon train was found and reported. Not pieces of a sophisticated alien craft which every believer thinks are made of balsa wood, rubber, mylar, etc.

If no one can produce any evidence of an alien craft why the hell are you all so bent in trying to prove otherwise? What does it matter what some of the principals said 31 years after the fact? Why are these principal characters treated as if they were still there in 1947? Find the living ones, put them under hypnosis and see if what their minds have stored is what happened in 1947. But like I said, get a real, professional Ericksonian hypnotists and not the flakes such as Hopkins, Jacobs, et al. I doubt very much if they're really going to say that a UFO crashed near Roswell and alien bodies were recovered. That is just so much b.s.

Originally posted by Anunaki10
That's right, to keep an open mind is a good thing

www.abovetopsecret.com...

That thread is not by an open-minded person. That thread is the result of conspiracy, insufficient research, a failure to grasp what was going on in 1947 politics- and military-wise, gullibility, fantasy-proneness, and the will to believe because belief requires no evidence.

reply to post by The Shrike


Has it been pointed out why they used a ballon to spy on Russia from Roswell??
Wouldn't that be better done from further north america, canada or even alaska.??
Sounds like a strange location to me...