A distinction Between Judaism and zionism?

Judaism is a land centered religion. The entire structure of the religion is around 'the land of Israel" Eretz Yisrael.

Zion, means 'marker' in Hebrew, and refers to the 'mark' where the universe was created - the temple mount.

Judaism and Israel, and Judaism and Jerusalem go hand in Hand. The years 125-140 CE saw the worst persecution of the Jewish people in history (up till that time). The Emperor Hadrian allocated an extraordinary 40 % of Rome legions to the tiny province of Judea, to deal with the 'Jews". Considering the size of the roman empire, that was a very risky gesture. The other provinces were left vulnerable just so he could overwhelm the Jews and their Revolt against the Romans.

In the end, Hadrian had killed 650,000 Jews, ranscaked 985 towns, and dispersed the remaining populations. That was the beginning of the end of the Jewish presence in the land of Israel.

Since that time, the Jews have a constant presence in certain parts of Israel - in Jerusalem, Safed, Sheckem, Hebron, Gerar amongst others. Their writings spoke non-stop about their destined 'return' to their holy land. Praying and supplicating the creator to have mercy on them.

What than exactly is Zionism? Secular zionism is undoubtedly an abberation and mockery of the millenia long Jewish desire to return to Israel. It in fact circumvented that religious jewish desire by creating a countering and highly publicized 'zionism' which was backed by rich Jewish bankers and socialist, secular types. Zionism became synonymous with evil. And Judaisms history and religious identification with that land buried deeply beneath the sordid rubble of secular zionism.

So what should people make of this? Are the religious zionists and secular zionist the same, despite their ardent hate for one another? Is it not incredibly unjust what the secularists and illuminists have done - yet again, to the real religious G-d fearing Jews?

Isnt it necessary to make a distinction between Zionism and Judaism? And give the Jews their right to win back their promised land?

reply to post by dontreally

Originally posted by dontreally
Judaism is a land centered religion. The entire structure of the religion is around 'the land of Israel" Eretz Yisrael.

Zion, means 'marker' in Hebrew, and refers to the 'mark' where the universe was created - the temple mount.

Judaism and Israel, and Judaism and Jerusalem go hand in Hand.Isnt it necessary to make a distinction between Zionism and Judaism? And give the Jews their right to win back their promised land?

edit on 30-12-2010 by dontreally because: (no reason given)

You seem to be saying that Judaism and Zionism are similar. Then you say isn't it necessary to make a distinction between the two. Are you saying that it is or isn't necessary to make a distinction? Are they the same? I cant tell by your question.

The idea of a "promised land" is religion specific, specific to Jews. We are constantly bombarded with decries of Muslims allegedly pushing their religion and "Sharia Law" onto the entire planet.

Lets first agree that the beliefs of any one religion (or any belief system for that matter) should not be forced upon anyone else. Regardless of whether its Judaism, Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, or the new "Green religion" etc.

That having been said, the Jews do not have a "right" to any land no more than Muslims have a "right" to enforce their religious beliefs on any other group.

As far as a distinction between Judaism and Zionism, there are many Jews who have made it a point to state unequivocally that Zionism is not Judaism. The reason for the distinction has to do with Zionist beliefs which allow them to kill and slaughter in order to secure this so called "promised land".

For example. Here is an article from the Jewish newspaper Haaretz quoting Yaakov Teitel, a West Bank rabbi, who said that Jews can kill Gentiles including babies and children, but I guess it wouldnt be ok to "kill Jews"?:

West Bank rabbi: Jews can kill Gentiles who threaten Israel

A West Bank rabbi on Monday released a book giving Jews permission to kill Gentiles who threaten Israel.

Rabbi Yitzhak Shapiro, who heads the Od Yosef Chai Yeshiva in the Yitzhar settlement, wrote in his book "The King's Torah" that even babies and children can be killed if they pose a threat to the nation.

Shapiro based the majority of his teachings on passages quoted from the Bible, to which he adds his opinions and beliefs. "It is permissable to kill the Righteous among Nations even if they are not responsible for the threatening situation," he wrote, adding: "If we kill a Gentile who has sinned or has violated one of the seven commandments - because we care about the commandments - there is nothing wrong with the murder."

Example of some of the many Jews who not only have an issue with Zionism but with the state of izrael itself:

reply to post by gladtobehere

You seem to be saying that Judaism and Zionism are similar. Then you say isn't it necessary to make a distinction between the two. Are you saying that it is or isn't necessary to make a distinction? Are they the same? I cant tell by your question.

I did make a distinction. Maybe not clearly enough.

Judaism is religious and based on a religious tradition that is firmly rooted in the land of Israel. Unlike other traditions, Judaism alone is unique in that a particular place on earth in the paradigm in which the perform their 'comamndments' of Torah in a society governed by the Biblical Law of Moses.

Secular zionism is a deliberate perversion of this original and ancient Jewish destiny and instead bases itself soley on cultural and ethnic considerations. Only "ethnic" Jews can live in Israel. The entire assumption is illopgical. Why should Jews have to live In Israel in a secular modern world if they share the same attitude and philosophy as everyone else. Thus, even insisting that Jews require their own state based on nothing more than ethnicity is an insulting and inflammatory idea that definitely irks the egalitarian sensitivities of todays people.

Conversely, If a Jewish state is NOT based on ethnciity, but on Judaism (which means anyone can convert) than it has nothing at all to do with race, but everything to do with lifestyle and religious philosophy. Judaism and the dream of Judaism to establish a Jewish kingdom in the land of Israel IS Zionism.

Secular zionism (if you arent acquainted with this distinction, you have alot to read up on) is the complete antithesis of Judaism. It is paganism essentially wrapped up in a very thin Jewish garb (which the uneducated and historically daft dont seem to notice)

The idea of a "promised land" is religion specific, specific to Jews. We are constantly bombarded with decries of Muslims allegedly pushing their religion and "Sharia Law" onto the entire planet.

Sharia law is completely different. Sharia law is IMPOSED on NON Muslims socieities. Jewish law does not affect non Jews and is only binding on Jews. Also, any reasonable person can see that Jewish law is koolaid compared to the radical ideology of Sharia Law. Go up to an observant Jewish woman and ask her and she'll tell you. Jewish wives are cherished by their husbands and children.

Lets first agree that the beliefs of any one religion (or any belief system for that matter) should not be forced upon anyone else. Regardless of whether its Judaism, Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, or the new "Green religion" etc.

Thats a good thing to agree upon.

That having been said, the Jews do not have a "right" to any land no more than Muslims have a "right" to enforce their religious beliefs on any other group.

I dont see how your former statement served to point out anything here. Jews by virtue of their having been forcibally removed 1800 years ago by the romans their non-stop spiritual longing to return, grants them every right to take it from arabs who in anycase were nomads that didnt settle in any one area (especially during the 17 and 1800s. For instance, Mark Twain said Israel was a parched desolate land when he had visited).

For example. Here is an article from the Jewish newspaper Haaretz quoting Yaakov Teitel, a West Bank rabbi, who said that Jews can kill Gentiles including babies and children, but I guess it wouldnt be ok to "kill Jews"?:

If taht is true, that is certainly not a Jewish belief. Jews are not allowed by any means to kill anyone. Its a law of the Torah - "thou shalt not kill". Neither Gentile or animal. Do not kill - needlessly(that is, for food you may kill certain kosher animals). Its also a Noahide law - a law applicable to non Jews that "thou shalt not kill". The only time killing is permitted is when you know someone is coming to kill you; than you are required to go out and kill him first. This is basic logic and self defense. These sort of anecdotal arguments arent gonna help yopu prove your point. Also, in Israel, HaArets has a reputation for being the single most manipulative mendacious newspaper perhaps on the face of planet earth. Nobody respects a single thing from HaAretz. Its pure propaganda Haaretz. Ive already described a paradigm of a secular zionism and religious Zionism. The secularists pretty much own all the newspaper in Israel because surprise surprise - Israel is one of the few countries in the "western world" where the state owns the media. The only privatized Newsource in Israel is ArutzSheva (7 news) and Ynet. Everything else is state owned and so pushes state propaganda - in this case, defamatory stories about Orthodox Judaism which they brand "ultra".

Example of some of the many Jews who not only have an issue with Zionism but with the state of izrael itself:

Jews like that are in the minority like 5-10% range. Not very influential. And frankly its actually quite hard not to just lash out on them. Their helping Israels enemies by imagining Judaism isnt a land centered religion. Thats why only 1 out of 20 pay attention to the. And an even smaller number actively protests against Israel.

Real religious zionists are more than bothered by their vacuity.

Their used to being in Exile. Tell me. how normal is it for Jews to live as they do like this forever? Its not normal, and frankly i dont think the nations of the world - the Nazis - the UN are gonna tolerate a "insular" and "divisive" presence like orthodox Jews in their New World Order.

So they should really think about that, these Jews who protest Israel. They arent safe here. Just like the Jews who were warned in pre-holocaust Germany that they werent safe there.

But the music plays very loudly and unless youre grounded you can be swept up in the rapture.

reply to post by dontreally

Originally posted by dontreally

 

Sharia law is completely different. Sharia law is IMPOSED on NON Muslims socieities. Jewish law does not affect non Jews and is only binding on Jews. Also, any reasonable person can see that Jewish law is koolaid compared to the radical ideology of Sharia Law. Go up to an observant Jewish woman and ask her and she'll tell you. Jewish wives are cherished by their husbands and children.

I'd like to see some examples of Sharia law being imposed on non Muslims. Even one example would be interesting.

Jewish law is not binding on non Jews? I would argue that Jewish law is binding on every non Jew living within Occupied Palestine. How many Palestinians have been displaced and murdered because of Jewish law. I'll tell you, millions have been banished from their homes and land. Thousands have been slaughtered.

You may be interested in reading a short book by Jack Bernstein called The Life of an American Jew in Racist Marxist Israel

I mean, a look at the Ringworm Affair or Ringworm Children gives a lot of credibility to what Jack Bernstein wrote about and gives insight to "Jewish law" and behavior.

reply to post by dontreally

Sharia law is completely different. Sharia law is IMPOSED on NON Muslims socieities.

Who own the most critical positions in systems of finance and media and politics?

Who says the ideals of zionists are not enforced upon Christians?

Or who says the ideas of zionists are not enforced upon unknowing Americans?

Besides that, I live in a place with plenty of Muslims, both them and me are not abiding by Sharia law but by the law of the country we live in. If you were to live in an Islamic country, you would be expected to adhere to their laws like you do in your own country. What is the problem? The laws themselves? That is another discussion completely.

reply to post by gladtobehere


Israel is a secular state where Jewish law has no national influence.

What the IDF does is based on purely secular considerations and even than i dont think the IDF deserves the degree of criticism that it has recieved.

The Israeli government dont just oppress palestinians, but in fact Jews also. Look at Gush Katiff in 2005 where 6000 Jews were expelled from their homes, properties bulldozed and synagogues bulldozed. No religious government would ever bulldoze a synagogue - but a secularist government that has a contempt for Judaism, would.

Israel is constantly dealing with suicide attacks and rocket attacks into their cities - pre-1967 borders. What does that than suggest? That the palestinians dont even respect the existence period of Israel. They dont want a two state solution. They want Israel gone or dead. How does Israel respond to these attacks? Not logically. For the sake of appeasement they resort to precision bombings that never seem to accomplish anything. In other words, Jews are simply being forced to tolerate a terrorist state without being given the right to protect themselves.

Compare this to other situations. America was attacked on 9/11 and invaded and occupied two different countries. If you were to add up all the casualties of suicide attacks in Israel it woul reach the thousands. In 1944 the British carpet bombed dresden because their general felt it was more logical than precision bombing. This resulted in 200,000 dead Germans during a period where the Germans were concentrating all their manpower on killing Jews (hightime at auschwitz 1944). So the Germans posed no threat to them. They simply wanted revenge for the attacks on london.

In Israels case their citizens face non stop bombardment and declarations of war and Israel isnt even allowed to respond offensively. They are only permitted to 'defend' themselves and no one can win a war through "defence". Additionally, the palestinians have a general hatred and blood lust to kill Jews. Take a look at PalestinianMediaWatch PLW.org. Go there and see for yourself the type of propaganda palestinains are subjected to. Look at the Lebanese (a virtual province of Iran) and see how the Hizbollah youth dress in the brown uniforms and give the Nazi salute. And jews arent supposed or "allowed" to protect themselves? These people want to murder every single one of them.

Millions of Christians have died as a result of Zionism since it is a fact that Zionism caused WWI and WWI and is related to the horrors of Communism.

Zionism and Communism are twin sisters if you read into the history of the two ideologies of hate.

The most important concept is that we, the good people of the planet, can not be afraid to denounce Zionism whenever and wherever we encounter it.

Zionism is pure evil

and like the devil it is it will take any form it can to hide itself.

The suppoters of Zionism can define it anyway they want but we know it by its fruits and its fruits are death and destruction.

Thank you for reading my post.

We can not be shy when it comes to bashing Zionism.

Zionism is wrong for Jews and wrong for Gentiles.

Please join the fight against radical Zionism.

Thank you for reading this message.

reply to post by dontreally


No you made your distinction very clear the individual responder just wanted to get on his/ her anti Semitic rant, using the same old lies to prop up their flimsy point.

We can not be bullied by Zionism.

Zionism is bad for Jews and bad for Gentiles.

I encourage people to speak out about Zionism.

Go wants us to defy Zionism that is clear.

Originally posted by Noey777
reply to post by dontreally

 

No you made your distinction very clear the individual responder just wanted to get on his/ her anti Semitic rant, using the same old lies to prop up their flimsy point.

reply to post by BRAVO949


You are so obviously an agent of disinformation. Your tactics are completely ORWELLIAN. Repeat the same line again and again and the dimwits will believe it.

Answer this one question: Is Judaism Zionism? (knowing you, you cant put yourself in a vulnerable position, so being the liar that you are, you will probably avoid this question and go on in repeating in your hitlerian way, "zionism is evil")

Given the Torah commands Jews (Jews = Judeans, of the tribe of Judah, the only tribe which has maintained the Mosaic law) to live in Israel, how can Judaism be separated from Zionism?

You conflate Zionism with everything evil. Zionism started both world wars? Bull#. Zionism is just about the Biblical covenant. The Jewish desire to return to Israel. It is nothing more then a nationalistic effort of the Jewish people to establish themselves in their ancient homeland. Is it political? yes. Were its founders religious Jews? No. Does that change the fact that religious Jews see in the ressurection of the state of Israel the beginning of their predicted redemption? No. Do Jews want to hurt anyone. No. Do Arabs want to prevent the Jews from establishing themselves in the middle of Dar Al Islam? yes. Will they do everything in their power - with the help of their gnostic christian brethren - the western powers - to accomplish this? YES.

Screw your lies and propaganda. Youre going to suffer in the next world for this mendacity and malevolence.

reply to post by dontreally

Is Judaism Zionism?

I can answer that easily.

No Judaism is not Zionism.

If you asked "Is Zionism Judaism?"

I would also answer no.

If you asked "Was the ideology of Zionism born out of the spirit of Judaism?'

Then I would say yes. In fact I would say that Zionism is reflective of the very worst part of Judaism and might even go so far as to say that Zionism is the worst part of Judaism refined to the nth degreee.

I don't think Judaism is fundamentally evil but parts of it are repugnant and when refined to the nth degree fundamentally evil.

Since you are asking questions that challenge the very core of Zionism then I would like to add that the basic ideology of Zionism is one thing, the attitude and deeds of the early Zionists another and the bastard child of the two that we now as the modern Israel is yet another thing.

We might place them on a something of a Maslow's hierarchy and notice that the progression is from moderate evil to abject satanism.

Even if a person could justify the roots of Zionism the modern day hell-hole of Israel can not be justified by any moral person Jew or non-Jew and the good honest Jews know this.

Those who are angered by what I say are simply haunted by a small voice of decency with in them crying "Zionism is fundamentally evil, steer clear of it."

That is why I pray for you - you are not beyond redemption.

I meant to say that "God" wants us to defy Zionism, that is clear.

As far as I know the early Zionists had no respect for any religion.

It was only by way of deception that Zionist sucked good honest Jews into the vortex of Zionism.

As may good honest Jews say, Israel is the most dangerous place in the world for Jews.

Originally posted by BRAVO949
We can not be bullied by Zionism.

Zionism is bad for Jews and bad for Gentiles.

I encourage people to speak out about Zionism.

Go wants us to defy Zionism that is clear.

Originally posted by Noey777
reply to post by dontreally

 

No you made your distinction very clear the individual responder just wanted to get on his/ her anti Semitic rant, using the same old lies to prop up their flimsy point.